Kingfisher06

Kingfisher06,

 

Stick to the topic and stop jumping on people that disagree with you.  People are entitled to their opinions.  Allowing commercial fishing should be done on certain waters only and should be better regulated to keep the fishery going.  The East end perch fishery seems healthy but the Central / West end fishery is not what it was 10 years ago.  The finger lakes are big lakes but too much pressure may destroy a great fishery.  We need to preserve what we have. 

The topic is a statewide ban being lobbied by school children by way of a teacher's agenda. My style of speech offends you? I can't ask for people to go beyond emotional and hypocritical arguments? There is a collective, feel good mob mentality versus my individual aggressive speech. One begets the other.

I have no issue in a classroom exploring ANY controversial issue. They need to learn how to gather unbiased information, look at all sides of an issue and make educated choices. Isn't critical thinking the cornerstone of education? I also believe that working with government agencies and pursuing avenues to make appropriate changes is also a significant part of the education process. Kingfisher, you are short changing the minds of these students and are threatened that the teacher is driving the curriculum which in my opinion is not the case. Critical thinking, the scientific method, and data gathering and interpretation are all important skills which need to be taught.

Oh my, of course controversial issues ought to be on the table. I obviously enjoy critical thinking and loved debates in high school. I believe a mock demonstration is more than applicable. To sidetrack answering the question I posed to you in two examples, you now claim the teacher is no longer in control of his curriculum; the students are, but a few posts ago claim there is a long chain of command on what a teacher utilizes as curriculum. So is what you're saying as a retired teacher is: dodge dodge dodge accountability at all costs? Is this the modus operandi for teachers? Seems so. 

Kingfisher I have you say you are out of line insulting everyone who is respectfully trying to disagree with you.  Several times over the course of this thread I've had constructive, informative comments to make but didn't because of your attitude.

 

Thumping everyone over the head who disagrees with you is not going to change anyone's mind or make them listen to you, quite the opposite in fact.  

 

Edit:  and this is coming from someone who agrees with many of your points regarding the science behind it all.  That may surprise some but I'm a big believer in science and data.

I think I called s8man a bullcrap artist once, sorry sk8man. Otherwise claiming someone is dangerous, unethical is fair. If there are other name calling I apologize. You don't understand how insulted I am by the methods and means of this proposition, its frustrating.

This is getting ridiculous. Regulations and other management practices are needed to control the balance of life in the waters and on land. It can't be a free for all. Simple as that. If it were, we would probably have people killing each other over a fish. Without regulations, wild fish and wildlife would have been depleted long ago. And don't start pointing the finger at immigration.

You really don't understand...who is asking for the abolishment of game laws?

Kingfisher,

From my experience, a teacher and the course curriculum are reviewed and overseen by a department head, administrators, the board of education and ultimately the State Education Department. It also seems to me that this class has been a great learning experience for those students involved.

Kingfisher, While I respect your right to an opinion I strongly object that you say I "lack any type of deep ethical responsibility" I'm also unclear on how the safe gun act directly relates to sale of fish issue. I also take offense on your personal attack on my integrity when you know nothing about me.

I commend fly rod for allowing students to investigate a difficult issue, gather information, and pursue actions they feel are appropriate. Seems to me to be a very teachable moment!

As stated before, I have mixed feelings on this topic. Having lived in Jefferson County for 40 years and communicating with a former student that is one of the largest perch buyers in the area gives me an interesting historical and personal perspective. I feel the need to monitor this renewable resource is critical to maintaining long term sustainable harvest levels. If the resource can withstand the commercial harvest let the practice continue, if not shut it down.

Just answer the question instead of taking it personally, do you support those other examples I presented or not?

Edit: By the way I did not claim you lacked deep ethical responsibility, unless you answered hypocritically. Cart before horse.

 Figured we would explain how we came to this point. First this is mainly an 11^th grade class and a rural school that most everyone in class hunts and/or fishes. Project started last year when went to an aquaponics farm that raised vegetables and started to experiment with perch instead of tilapia. We got on topic because one of our students will be going to Cobleskill for fisheries and wants to create a business through aquaculture. We then had discussion about selling fish. Question was raised as to why someone would want to go through investment to raise fish to sell when a $20 license and virtual no regulations would be easier, knowing that the business would be taxed, regulated and inspected with a potential for not succeeding like all small business face. They felt it would be easier to take from a resource that they had no investment in.  Since NY is one of only a few states that allow selling(also illegal in Ontario and Quebec) we looked at other states. In those that made selling illegal by recreational license in past 30 years there was a 10 fold increase in aquaculture permits.  So as “capitalism†works why not open a farm that raises perch without toxins. This would generate more business for restaurants since now those under 16 and women of child bearing age could eat fish... As far as the fishery itself they delved into numerous discussions from all side. We studied the past 200 years on Ontario and found a lake in constant turmoil, brought on most by human activity. In every instance of a major crash people thought the fishery was inexhaustible, and all the efforts to fix it were reactive instead of proactive. They also saw through efforts by those who worked hard to restore the fishery, that positive contributions work. We also acquired information on a few stings setup in NY to catch poachers and perch from here ended up in NYC and as far away as California within 3 days. Hardly local. Could go on and on.  Bottom line, they felt that this was a worthwhile cause.  They have never assumed that they had all the answers. They are also getting lesson on how ideas become regulations or laws  I have to admit, there are a couple things we have “indoctrinated†them on, to use the term again. One is that regardless of whether it is a drivers license, hunting license or fishing license, those are privileges and not rights. Also the fact that as hunters and fishers they are taking(killing) from the resource that belongs to the collective whole and they should give back something in return so that future people have the same opportunities. Pic is brown trout we raise from eggs in classroom do numerous projects with and release in May. A part of giving back!100_1551.JPG

 

Most all the kids hunt or fish, that’s great. Have most or all of them sold a few pails of fish prior to your class? Have they experienced both sides on their own outside of school, with their family? I guess not.

Virtually no regulations; sounds like heaven to my ears, but to most on here familiar with the process, it’s quite evident there are and they are sufficient. Do you really believe the sellers don’t feel an investment in the resources? That’s a misconception. Like Gambler mentioned earlier in the thread, the gossip on the internet has probably influenced fishing pressure more than any other avenue in the last decade. Maybe your kids should seek to ban Lakeontariounited, with no true causal proof. I know I never gossiped about where I was making a buck, and the fellas I knew on the bay sure as hell were not advertising their whereabouts or posting reports that would lead to further competition/pressure.

So Capitalism, in your mind, therefor what you are teaching the kids is: Utilizing the State to outlaw competition in the market place. Really? That is so wrong and dangerous and exactly what has led to the unchecked greed and unfairness we see in today’s economy. You are a dangerous man. Why not let restaurants decide if they want farm-raised or local caught and let the buying power of the customers decide? I know why, but wait a second.

Is it illegal for perch to end up somewhere other than a local restaurant, really? I’d think selling locally first, saving on shipment costs would be beneficial, but then shipping when the market was saturated would be quite feasible to a business model.

I think it is a great understanding to have; how govt works. But you sir, you have a dangerous mind. In the “Seneca Perch†thread on page seven you say: The one thing that is difficult to control is invasives, so when we see invasives we need to make adjustments to those things we have control over…eliminate the selling and request more enforcement to put the greedy ones on notice are some of the things that can be controlled.†You are incapable of doing the scientific work and rigor to find the causal agent to find a solution so you go after a perceived boogeyman. Why is it hard to regulate the introduction of invasives throught the Seaway? Because big business has big bucks, big lobbies and the State has open pockets. It called Crony Capitalism, the style you teach! I propose the causal agent is the unchecked greed that pays off big govt to look the other way. How does govt get so big? Because of indoctrinators like you. Teaching kids to turn to the govt to intervene and eliminate healthy competition. Teaching kids to control folks, without causal proof of doing any harm, to pretend to do good for the “collective†through the long arm of the state through increased enforcement and degradation of opportunity. You are a protected teacher, probably tenured and immune to competition, you have a vested interest in non-competition through state means. Doesn’t mean you have to teach it too.    

Not just Kevin, anybody can chime in, would you support a teacher, who's hobby is organizing PETA demonstrations, rally her children to outlaw the Charter and Guide industry? Either side of a debate can be argued emotionally, and manipulatively especially by a teacher figure to students!!!!! What say you?

And I don't care about the wishy-washy side notes Kevin presents about duck ID, or hunter safety instructors, or whatever else outside his capacity as a NYS taxpayer funded HS teacher. As a biology teacher, its a science based discipline, with very little room at the highschool level for an agenda to slip through. What could have been questioned as an agenda in a biology classroom at the H.S., I'm sure I don't want to know, good grief.  

Kingfisher,

I spent 33 years in the classroom and also taught Hunter's safety, duck ID and trappers training during the school day! Some might say I was pushing an agenda on my students. I have not seen the curriculum of this course but as an educator I was constantly looking for ways to get my students involved. It appears that these students have spent significant time gathering information from DEC Biologists, fishing forums and plan to meet with local representatives. It doesn't appear to me that this topic was forced upon them by the teacher but was student generated. The fact that they are involved, using Power Point presentations, U tube videos and plan an online petition shows a great deal of work on their part. If they discover their proposed ban is not warranted so be it. It was still a great learning process. As I parent I would praise the teacher for getting the kids involve in this process. I may be wrong but I don't view this as rallying students concerning this issue but allowing them the opportunity to explore a controversial issue, gather and examine information and attempt to change something they think is wrong.

Personally I have some mixed feelings on this topic, specifically on the larger bays in Jefferson County which may be able to sustain this commercial fishing. I also am also aware that restaurant serve numerous perch dinners enjoyed by many living in this area. I have observed some heavy commercial pressure on the some smaller local lakes and also remember when crappies were allowed to be sold (at high prices) and the problems that presented. Again when money is involved some people get greedy and become very proficient.

This topic needs to be further studied and decisions made base on scientific data and not on opinion, emotion, or greed. It's up to us all to protect our great natural resources.

So Kevin, You'd have absolutely no issue with a bunch of students organized by one teacher to further the coverage of the Safe Act for example to include all semi-autos. A ban, not registration, where a forced buy-back would be initiated. All semi-autos, your Ruger 10/22, all hand guns, etc. A bunch of students who before this class never owned a firearm, or had ever really thought or been taught about the whole issue at hand? A whole group of students at the forefront of a petition to sway the public officials in the favor of the teachers agenda is ok with you? If that is ok, then I can sit back and understand you've taken a position, if it is not, then you are a hypocrite who is swayed by your individual interests and lack any type of deep ethical responsibility.  

Wow what a hot topic. Responses sound a bit like a Trump rally. As sportsman we need to work together for the good of our resources. As a retired biology teacher I find the student's project a very interesting avenue for them to become involved with conservation issues. Hopefully they are using scientific data in their decision making.

We all know what market hunting did to animal populations. People do get greedy when $ is involved and also get very efficient at harvesting which can lead to problems. If commercial fishing is to continue we need to keep a very close eye on fish population and be able to regulate their harvest if populations begin to wane.

Living in Jefferson County I am well aware of the commercial fishery and, yes, have occasionally sold some fish. I believe it is important that the DEC do an ongoing study of those fish that can be sold as populations can change fairly rapidly.

I truly believe we all want to see fish populations remain at sustainable levels and if we work together and use good data in decision making my grandkids and future generations will be able to enjoy what is such an important part of my life and many others.

Kevin, the netters of past are a different story than the hook n line folks. I agree, for example, the market hunters in the Chesapeake with their punt guns put a hurting on waterfowl numbers. But, I see no difference between guides bringing out clients everyday of the season on the Chesapeake and the hook n line folks around here.  

As a retired teacher I am surprised you find no ethical issue with this rallying of students to propose a statewide ban on hook n line selling of fish. Didn't your students trust you to know your subject implicitly? Didn't your students wish to do well, which made them vulnerable to a curriculum. A curriculum with an agenda based upon opinion and not fact is not ethical in my book. There is obviously a debate here, albeit a lop-sided one, but I'd be a pissed parent if this were one of my kids. Banning activities based on emotion, straw men and perceive threats is a style of politics today. That is what they are learning. I've begged to be swayed. The OP claims to have lots of info. All I've seen is some old news about farming around Seneca  

Well KING you know it all and I think ill take your well thought out replies to heart and start waiting for universities and the state to figure out the science so that a management plan is developed....wont be a huge deal as those two entities are probably well on there way to figuring it out. We should all prob catch as many as possible in the mean time while we await change.

Sk8man

Dont worry KING and his fellow state biologists will be starting a massive scientific study of Seneca perch issues and we dont need to rally support for the perch any longer....and he says dont worry because recreational fishermen know what they doing its tradition.

I'm not claiming to know it all. I can look at the data that exists for the eastern basin of Ontario and understand the perch population is stable. I can read a scientific report from years ago that showed causation from cormorant predation on yearling perch, subsequent egg oiling efforts allowing a rebound in that age class. I can rally around good data. Rather than call for a statewide ban on hook and line selling, why not rally for Seneca Lake science projects?   

Isn't most fish sold live weight?(perch) as I'm not filleted yet?

Sent from my XT1080 using Lake Ontario United mobile app

Yes, (most, not all) from my experience.

"selling and buying of fish is regulated and inspected routinely." Total BS as is the rest. Restaurants are inspected generally but there isn't a specific inspection process for the perch and it would be "happenstance" if they happened to be inspecting when perch were present. There is no inspection regarding sanitary handling of perch where the fillets are cut before selling by the fisherman either.

Where I sold perch they were inspected. The routine is like restaurants, a type of surprise we are here to look around for violations. It wasn't a scheduled routine (routine was a poor choice of words), because that would defeat the purpose. The place where I sold did cut filets for restaurants so, yes there is a inspection.

If you want studies and proof you will have to wait for the fishery to crash. A proactive plan is needed...does that mean i feel the sale of perch is the main problem...no...there are several issues and they all need to be addressed. You cant have no regulations and sell fish...long term sustainable fishing will involve regulations...period. I dont mind the sale of fish...just not on a recreational license. As routinely mentioned on this forum the violations on recreational fishing are a slap on the wrist. Charters, guides, and commercial fishermen have a lot more to lose if they choose not to follow the rules and get caught.

Sorry, but you don't need a fishery to crash to monitor fish populations. Where do you come up with this stuff? A proactive plan is understanding baseline data for a body of water over time and like I said earlier, get out to the University's and State to support such science. Don't fear monger with words like 'crash' to rally up emotional support. Like was said before, ad nauseam, selling and buying of fish is regulated and inspected routinely. Good grief. And yes, finally, your last sentence makes sense, the guys who buy and sell fish are incentivized to follow the rules. Holy Moses.   

All this anecdotal, emotional appeal does not help your case, period.

Is what this king guy says as he paints a picture of the guy who's too proud too collect unemployment so he is fishing or the poor guy just grinding it out to feed his family.

I dgaf if people sell fish or don't you're just over the top w the stories, ignoring the dudes who do it bc they are greedy and don't follow the rules and ruin it for the few good people doin it right

I'm not going to invade the privacy of the folks who make bucks to keep the lights on during the winter or who just sell for the fun of it to keep their excursions feasible and post their names and numbers to keep this from being anecdotal on my end. If you don't see enough of that from a few folks who've accounted that on just this thread, then read harder.

There are always going to be some bad eggs. Just like the Sandy Hook incident that spurned the Safe Act. You cannot regulate the lone wolf retard. Has the Safe Act stopped gun violence in NY or just issued more tickets? Have the strictest gun laws that are in nation in Chicago curtailed gun murders? Do you think outlawing activities where the vast majority exercises lawfully works? Or does it just give the state more power?

Has the Patriot Act kept you safer or allowed your rights to be infringed? You dont ever give up your rights or privileges, ever. Now I know, you'll say what does that have to do with hook and line fishing. But I plead with you all to present solid info that that is the causation to perch declines before you take away a way a good way of life. For crap's sake, a guy who tries to catch fish inland to make a buck is a dying art, not profession. Attack the state for allowing crap land use practices, subsidies that promote it.    

Get to the base of the problem and you will see it is a massive promotion of the state for the few to profit or have power. Anyone who roots for the state to fix their state issued grievance is rattling the cage the state put them in the first place. You can be a sheep who yells at the sheep to keep in order and yell to the collie that there is a straggler, or you can be bighorn who busts a hole in the fence and butts heads for freedom.  

I'm all for scientific based evidence to ensure we practice our efforts properly. Hell, I am a biologist who works and makes policy within this state. I went to school for a long time and I hunt and fish and have a burgeoning family who wishes to see the resources exist for a long time for the traditions i hold dear to endure. I won't see emotional re activity trump science or tradition. It's B>S    

I guess you seem to have all the answers Kingfisher.....and you aren't even from this area so I guess you must be a bit psychic....good for you

Just show me something definitive, that's all I ask. The premise of this post is a statewide ban on hook and line selling of fish.

Unjustly applying the term conspiracy, or racist, ___ phobe to people to discredit fair concerns is a common tactic used by folks who base their agendas on nothing more than emotions.

Making a case that a 8" perch in the pail is pointless for food is disingenuous.

If you believe the perch fishery is in danger and have a gang of like minded friends, then make up some jewelry and propose to each other that you'll abstain from fishing them. Start a FB page to promote your abstinence. Ask the local university to initiate some masters/PHd studies to fill the gap of understanding. Ask the DEC to focus a few surveys on your areas of concern and get some data to cumulate, which can then be bounced off university literature. All this anecdotal, emotional appeal does not help your case, period.  

Thanks for posting this. It is thought provoking. Just imagine the effect on the smaller lakes. With some it seems clearly visible. But I also wonder if this is something that can occour naturally, depending on the surrounding landscape. I have commonly heard that dairy farm runoff is a serious problem at some lakes.

Yes, eutrophication of lakes happens naturally. Generally, natural eutrophication is a slow process and cyclical. Cultural eutrophication happens rather quickly and is quelled by changing surrounding land use practices in the watershed. If those nasty perch guys would stop pooping over their transom, scumbags...

Along the lines of data and environmental impact you might want to take a look at this presentation a buddy sent:

 

There you go, send the pawns, I mean children to picket the wineries to use less fertilizer and chemicals...oh but the wineries are so good for the economy, its such a state treasure, its got to be those dirty, greedy, scamming perch guys.   

The first part to change a law that is legal now I have no problem with like I said good for them IF done right.

The second part of your reply I did not see that on here must have been what Alec deleted..... 

anyway if the teacher in charge of this signed it several times and is using a picture of a teary eyed child with a empty pail as proof ...... I'm with you total BS and something should be done with that teacher.

Youre confused with what I said, but whatever, lol I think I've made my point here, some will not get it, some will disagree, and this horse is beat...

Good to hear about record keeping.

What is wrong with them following a issue with a law and collecting info to back it?

Heck until you see what they have you are doing the same thing you accused other of in this thread.

They are not following an issue, they are lobbying to outlaw something legal. I don't think it is a teacher's place to do that. School children are heavily influenced by teachers. They are vulnerable, it should be a study of two sides, unbiased and left at that. a lesson on civics and it's process. A classroom exercise.

I've already said: show me some concrete peer reviewed studies that go beyond correlation, that show causation that hook and line commercial fishing  is unsustainable in these waters and I will gladly concede that issue. I see the teacher signed in several times, post something, other than a teary eyed child holding an empty pail.  

I don't know enough to say which is why I took that link out and said it "may" be an issue. It's possible it makes a difference, also possible it doesn't. I'm a casual perch guy at best but I do know they are prolific breeders and wiping them out completely would be very difficult even if we all tried.

Also I guess that's why this conversation is taking place. Nobody knows what the impact currently is. It's so hard to tell with all the recent changes in the lakes, the mussels, fleas, etc, that some guys might find their old spots and ways don't work any more and then say "the fish are gone!" when in reality they're just 10 feet deeper or eating something else. But it's been interesting reading everyone's opinions.

Each year NYSDEC does a Lake Ontario survey, mostly gill netting I believe. The eastern basin perch numbers are stable and doing their normal fluctuations. I don't know about Finger Lakes data. I truly believe this push to outlaw commercial hook and line is purely driven by emotions. It's absurd. Regulating based on emotions and selling that emotion through a child's voice is disingenuous at best.   

I wouldn't say it was off the books. Harvey kept records of each purchase and you had to sign your name with each sale on his record sheet. You'd get a receipt and he had a duplicate. It's been a long time since I sold perch, things are coming back to me, sorry for the parceled out response Errabbit.

I disagree Errabit, I don't think rallying students to lobby for a law change around a teacher's belief is Way Awesome. Should the process of participating in Govt be taught, of course, but this just stinks of manipulation.     

The problem I personally (and I think many others) have with it is that some of them are not doing it legally. Mostly by keeping more than 50 a day.

That's like guys taking extra deer or turkeys. Everyone always thinks "if I take an extra turkey it's only one and doesn't make a difference"... but if hundreds or thousands of guys across the state do it, it may be an issue.

(Edited in and then out a tangent topic.)

Agreed that folks shouldn't break the law.

I disagree that the level of hook and line fishing could fall under "tragedy of commons" theory. Now if there was netters, that theory could be applicable.

I'm not assuming anything! I know who is at Severne that I'm talking about and they have had a free pass for years. I didn't call you out don't slip one in at the end.

Alright, sorry, it's just odd to me that you are aware of such things, seemed like an assumption, that's all.

It is a privacy issue as well. It is really none of anyone's business why someone is doing what they do legally. If Warren Buffet wants to sell perch that's his own damn business. I couldn't agree more about the pathetic nature of someone on the dole complaining about tax woes or breaking the law, when in essence using the state as a strong man to reach in another's pocket. That is an entirely different issue then whats at hand. And you are assuming a lot making a statement about who you think is and is not on the dole.