King Davy

Yeah I know the hatchery product has been suspect at times. I helped clip them spring of 2022 and it was so cold in March in the tank room there was five inches of ice on the tank pipes. We had to bring propane heaters in to thaw out our hands about every 10 minutes. Tough environment to raise these fish in. Yet the ones I catch and see in the finger lakes are great fish. Hopefully the Federal product will be much more consistent.

Gambler did it look like the fins may have been clipped. The adult fish being caught now are from the ADK hatchery and all LO fish were clipped adapose and or both Adapose and a vent clip. ( those raised in pens). Now all the LO fish are out of VT. DEC has brokered a management plan with Federal hatcheries to obtain Salar hopefully in greater numbers. I heard the lake creel census showed an increase in landlocks caught . I know of a couple captains out of Oswego who’ve never had the opportunity to check in with the creel boat who’ve caught dozens of salar. The trib creel census showed a high catch in our Sandy creek and Oak orchard. So it would seem they are becoming a part of the targets one can hope/expect to catch both on the Lake and tribs.

Fish was down 101 feet in 41 degree water. Deepest and coldest I’ve ever caught one on the lake. Also caught a laker WITH and adipose fin. So could have been a wild. Always fun out west.

Yeah old Marge is passed and her sons haven’t kept up the Marina. So we dock next door. I started trolling the lake in 1971, started guiding in 1979 through 2001. We didn’t have all this social media stuff back in those days. My only claim to fame back in the day was writing for the original Great Lakes fishermen mag on their staff. We generated lots of great information on catching trout and salmon in the Great Lakes. The fish are still in the same places, and Gratson and I still laugh all day long and catch fish.

Over 40 years fishing the Wilson area in the Spring 30 of it with great friend Gratson and his son new Capt Collin, and daughter Meg. Friday was a 30 bite start, Saturday we went looking for bigger fish and the bite was slower from 300 feet into the shallower depths. Everything from Kings, Coho’s, Lakers and an Atlantic salmon taken 100 foot down in cold water. Spoons flies and meat all took fish.

Honestly Rick I simply called the DEC and asked. I doubt they’ll publicly share the actual comments and expose people’s personal email addresses.

Fern Driftwood it’s all good. I’m sure the future will be bright with us all rowing together to make the entire fishery as world class as it is today

As far as the regs making steelhead fishing better I totally disagree. Before the die off in 2014 from the late 1990’ steelhead were getting hammered on both the lake and tribs due to the fact the 1993 salmon stocking reduction put way more pressure on rainbows. And much tougher king fishing. The reg change in 2004 steelhead fishing right up to the 2014/2015 die off was spectacular, and I can’t speak for others but in that time frame I had four legitimate 20 pound plus fish three out of the Genny. Since the die off we also have bait fish issues and as king salmon sizes have dropped since that 2010 time frame so have the steelhead. But with the regs we now see many more year classes of fish in one season. I will say since the late 90’s serious trib anglers stopped killing steelhead. Trib anglers today don’t harvest nearly as many fish as 20 years ago. Including brown trout and even king salmon. The census results have painted that picture for years. Trib anglers want to manage that fishery much differently than the lake anglers. There is nothing wrong with that. As much as you want to I can tell you a majority of the folks I know that fish the LO tribs have never blamed poor fishing on the lake anglers killing all the fish. They focus on how those fish are treated in rivers from September through the following May. And look to regulate accordingly. Last thing I’ll say is this. Where ever you fish, open lake, LO tribs, inland tribs (which are now open year round)….. have a safe fun and successful season what ever that may be to all who have the passion to be fishermen.

Brian you seem so paranoid about TU. I know how the comment tally ended up. Number one there wasn’t nearly as many comments from any particular group as you seem to imagine. I have two theory’s why DEC made a reg change on the lake. I also sat on the bi-national stakeholder group and in listening to MNR and DEC there were/are routinely looking to have standard regs including creel limits. At the time the Canadians had recently dropped their steelhead lake creel to two. The second factor that I know was discussed internally between mangers was the original architected plan that Bill Pearce put together back in the 60’s. I know because one of my very good friends working for DEC at the time helped bring that to the discussion. King and Coho salmon along with brown trout and lake trout were to be the staple fish for the lake, and steelhead were the icing on the cake. Since steelhead spend as much if not more months in a tributary and Bill and his team of biologists and managers stated that steelhead would be the trib staple and the other fish icing on the cake since their river presence was far more limited. So maybe that’s why they made the change.

We are once again going to try and find a place to raise steelhead on the Genny. There is a keen interest from fishermen to do so. Hopefully we can work something out with a location to house the pens. DEC supports this 100% and will provide the materials to build them. And fisherman from all interests have volunteered to take care of them.

There are other factors. One, most of the discussion around LO and alerts to pen rearing is done on this site. Most tributary fishermen that I know and have known forever never ever heard of LOU. I had my boat at Sandy until 2001 and knew Bob S since I had been the president of the then western Lake Ontario Charter Boat Association, and helped on pens at the Oak and Sandy and at the Genny when Frank Sanza ran that operation. I was always a trib angler and I can tell you several that I fished with joined those efforts. We just didn’t announce how or where we fished. Cause who cares. Let’s just raise these fish and set them free. Organizations like Trout Unlimited are not now nor have they ever been a threat to any cold water fishery. They work on every type of water that supports cold water species. Any success story of cold water species being supported by anglers is in their play book. Regulations are meant to sustain sport fishing. And there will never be a regulation amendment or change that makes everyone happy. But in the end where has any of this truly ruined anyone’s life or lively hood? Support them or hate them I can’t imagine anyone walked away from fishing the lake or the tribs due to a fishing creel regulation.

Yup I was asked to present that to the state council and in attendance was Steve Hurst who also supported the presentation. At the end of it the council wanted to make a TU position statement in support of the two new reg changes to the tribs , and had no statement in any changes to any regs for the lake. And in front of Hurst and the council I said NO. Individual anglers need to decide on their own on if they support these reg changes, and comment back to the DEC. So New York State TU did not make an organized position statement to DEC to the comment period. And I know that Lake clubs and Charter boat groups also discussed these reg changes during the comment period back then as well they should. So what’s the big deal if groups of concerned anglers discuss matters of the fishery? Yesterday while loading one of the chinook pens at the Oak a section of pipe broke loose and hundreds of salmon par spilled out on the ground. Do you think the trib guys for which there were at least a dozen just sat there and said well these are chinooks flopping around dying in the dirt let the lake guys pick them up? No everybody scrambled to get these beautiful little fish into the water. And by the end they had all been put in and I didn’t see a single dead par laying on the surface. Brian it’s time to stop all this us vs them BS. We all love this fishery no matter where and how we fish it.

Here’s the truth about what happened at the Genny with Steelhead pens. First let me comment on regulation changes three years ago. The original stakeholder committee was involved in offering regs changes. The members of that committee addressing the tributary fishery offered a 1 one brown trout limit reg change ONLY in the tribs and a 25 inch limit for steelhead. The trib steelhead creel limit was changed from 3 to 1 in 2004. That was it. Never did that group seek a creel reduction for the lake creel on steelhead. They did want to see a universal 25 inch limit open waters and trib. That request was refused at the committee level after discussions and the lake size would remain at 21. There was no push back from lake anglers on the two reg changes to the tribs. That was it. The DEC through their own discussions made that change. It had nothing to do with any tributary group. Call the DEC in Albany or Cape Vincent and ask them if you don’t believe what I’m writing. Ask them why? Two years ago a group of 30 volunteers both trib and lake anglers to include a few charter boat Captains worked with DEC, a private welder to get materials, funding and permission from Skip Shumway to put two new steelhead pens at the Genny. The Order for materials to be shipped to the welder was being finalized, when Skip called me since I had secured his agreement to let us bring steelhead back to the genny and said and I quote. A few charter boat captains approached me to say they didn’t get along with tributary anglers. I can’t have any trouble on my property so I have to rescind my permission to have them put here. This friction between fisherman is childish. Today at the Oak, lake anglers including charter captains and trib anglers worked side by side to load 127k salmon and 10k steelhead. Wednesday this week a group of lake and trib anglers like they did last Saturday will join each other to load 10k steelhead into their Sandy creek pens. So why can’t that happen at the Genny where both lake and trib anglers enjoy catching steelhead in both the open waters of the lake and the river?

I’m not sure after reading the last group of posts what you are looking for Spoon-fed. New York State is getting the majority of LL salmon from a federal hatchery in Vermont. The ADK state hatchery will continue to produce the same number of LL salmon for the finger lakes and some for LO as they have since the 80’s. From a funding perspective there is no change from the standpoint of taking monies from the other LO stocking programs to run this one. Gambler and others you would serve yourself well to go log into the Great Lakes Fishey Commission. The Federal programs developed way back in the 1950’s on the control of lampreys and the restoration of Native Great Lakes Species. For the past 70 years the two have been tied together. Personally I can’t see the Feds stopping the lamprey program just because a state quits a native species restoration program but these guidelines were put forth back when there wasn’t a pacific salmon program in the Great Lakes and F&W was looking to bring back native species. I for the life of me can’t fathom why any true sports fishing angler would have anything against trying to add diversity to a fishery as long as it doesn’t harm the existing program. Having and extra 80k LL in the entire lake that not only eat herring, but gobies, perch, shiners and insects. So this species won’t be a big player in the lake but probably in the tribs. It’s because they aren’t an off shore fish to where many of you spend most of the season. As far as them not getting caught in the tribs, I’ve heard the same story HB2 states that lots are being caught in the western tribs. But today in a conversation with Chris Legard with a former DEC employee was told by Chris the creel survey crews working the two tribs they are stocked in out west shows a large catch rate of LL’s . I’ve not caught any but I haven’t been fishing the western tribs lately. Working the bigger rivers instead. It’s amazing what weather does to fish movement. Because of low water I’m catching brown trout in a big river to where I’ve caught a handful of them the past 40 years. Now landing several a trip on top of the steelhead. There is no down turn in stocking of other species other than what DEC has cut from the bait fish assessment. They must have assessed that the number of LL’s stocked isn’t going to negatively effect the current situation. I don’t get to lake fish as often but I hope for the best for all that do, especially the guys who are guiding. So why is there anger if the tributary fishery might get a boost from another species of fish that I can tell you are a blast to catch in a river. Brian, I fish the Cayuga tribs and there are plenty of 10 plus pound salmon, and many many nice 5 to 8 pound fish that put on a spectacular show. So not sure how much hands on experience you have there but your experience certainly hasn’t been mine.

Roger Griel is the biologist at the university and the head of the salmon program in the St Mary’s. There has been many meetings between Roger and DEC. I’ve visited his hatchery which is in the basement of the power company on the river. Truly spartan facility at one time. it took Roger I think he said 12 to 15 years to find the right strain and hatchery solutions to finally be successful. But there is a big difference in the environments. His fish are benefiting from the colder waters coming out of Superior all summer long. It’s a big river with a huge flush of water into Huron. The river has huge smelt runs well into summer, and huge caddis and hex hatches. So there is plenty of forage and water quality to bring the LL’s in while they are still feeding before they move to spawning mode. fabulous fishery, but not nearly and apples to apples comparison for available environments which is the number one key in getting salmon to return and be happy in a river.

Brian, I was with a group of guys who clipped the LL’s this past March at the ADK hatchery that were meant for the LO pen project on the Salmon River at the lighthouse marina. it was so cold in the pens house there was ice formed on the pipes circulating the water. The water the fish were in was very cold, which is pretty unavoidable in the ADK in March. But also affects growth. When you observe fin rot or folding it normally means a possible crowding issue. We put 5k steelhead in the two pens we run at Oak Orchard. They seem to fair well at that number. We put 5k salmon in the pens at the SR (15k in three pens)and some LL experts say that’s too many per pen. Should be 2,500. The LL’s need more space. And we did observe fin rot and folding. For years and years the Salmon river LL’s were stocked at less than a year old at the top end of the river. In hopes as they swam the 11 miles to the lake they’d imprint to the SR. Can you imagine if you did that to the chinooks . They’d be gobbled up before they got out. As the LL’s were. Meanwhile they were stocked at the mouth of the other river at Oak. The returns to the Oak have been successful. Two weeks ago walking the Oak A colleague counted 24 LL’s behind a pod of kings up through the fast water and saw several caught by smart anglers fishing to the flanks of the kings. Two seasons ago DEC began stocking full one year old LL’s at the mouth of the salmon river. Think about the last two summers. Drought conditions this summer the worse in many years, low water, no flush to induce summer runs, even with a few kayak releases. LL salmon imprint at 48 to 52 degrees in a river. The only marina the past two years to offer space at the SR for the pens will not put their docks in until May. By the time the fish arrive, they imprinted at the hatchery in ADK or the opportunity was missed at the SR because the temp has exceeded optimal imprinting range. The crowding in the Pens also enacted higher mortality than expected and the fish were released early. Further complicating condition and probably survival. The LL ‘s I’ve seen at Sandy and the Oak have been decent looking fish. Most are true grilse ( 3 to 5 pound’s) but there have been some brutes caught in Sandy, Oswego a true 15 pound fish and some nice ones in the Oak and the SR. Several caught in the DSR in Sept and Oct. The other factor is since they arrive the same time the kings do, they do get bullied by the kings as do the brown trout. So they get pushed out of the runs the kings decide to hold gravel in. Many anglers are focused on those big fish and not finding the LL’s but they are there. My buddy caught four LL’s in the Sycamore hole two weeks ago fishing well behind the spawning kings. He was actually fishing for them. Also LL salmon are not fished for overly successfully bottom bouncing. Or fishing near bottom. Much like king salmon LL’s aren’t actively feeding once in a river. But they will much like King salmon strike out of instinct. ( Which is why I enjoy swinging streamers at both kings and LL’s because it’s a very effective way to elicit that primal instinct to kill something. Many guys fishing for browns right now are not swinging streamers but rather egg or bead fishing, or nymphing. Not the most effective way to catch LL’s. Not impossible but not nearly as effective as to have a bug or streamer swinging high in the water column. So while a LL may be present in your run, the anglers aren’t likely fishing the most effective method. The DEC is never going to be able to stock millions of LL’s. Why? Because it wouldn’t be a good management move to add that many fish to an already stressed food web. Even though LL’s are an extremely diverse forage feeder. And there isn’t many hundreds of thousands or millions available in federal hatcheries anywhere in the US. Much like the Sturgeon program. They are trying to find a strain that successfully survives the LO lake and tribs. Next hoping to find a watershed that actually produce wild fish. That has happened in the Salmon river. Not to the point where you can expect a wild production of LL’s to create a super sport fishery. However if they can find success even in a limited fashion they can claim some victory on their Mantra to revive a heritage species, maybe there is some sport fishing impact as minimal as it might be. And all of that can’t be a distraction or a detriment to the rest of the stocking program for at this point it isn’t. That’s the situation in a nut shell. I love Atlantic Salmon for sure. But I love all of our salmonid species and fish hard for them all. Would I personally love to have a highly viable LL fishery??? Sure but I’m very happy to at least have them in the mix I get to fish for on a river.

You called it a predominantly trolling web board not I. Go read you words. I don’t know you, but if you recognized me fishing along side you why not come over and introduce yourself. I’d love to put a name to a face. Sure people come here for the world class stream brown trout fishing. ( why we worked the 1 brown trout limit into the regs). But there are many who now ask about LL especially when they catch one. My wife’s clients from Rhode Island the past three days were aware of LL’s in the system asked about them and would have loved to catch one. They are in the mix, are being caught and enjoyed. What’s the big deal? these fish are not replacing a single other species in the stocking plan. They are an added bonus mostly for the trib environment. Why is that a big deal? The management plan included the Feds bringing a strain of LL to the table out of Vermont that are supposed to be resistant to low B1 thimane-ease break down. What’s the issue with the scientists doing science? Good on you for taking your son fishing and introducing him to several types of fishing. I wish you both lots of success. If you run into me on a river come over and introduce yourself.

Brian you see this as only a trolling web board? That’s a shame. It’s way more than that and just shows off your myopic view of the fishing world. There are hundreds and hundreds of people using our streams right now. Take a drive from RT 19 through your local river to Rt 18. People from all over the country here as a river fishing destination. Like I said I was with folks from Rhode Island, Tennessee. And as far away as Montana just yesterday. The 2019-2020 angler hours number was nearly 1.8 million hours. And don’t give me the tired argument that most of it was on the Salmon river. Yes much of it was because it has the largest infrastructure to accommodate visitors. and is a true tail water fishery that can stay open all winter. We have two of these in region 8 and they are fished every day. You seem to love to pick on programs that don’t necessarily benefit your trolling profile. Here’s one for you. DEC, US F&W and USGS just stocked a 1000 sturgeon in the Genny. You’ll likely not catch them either, so pick on that program as well. Like it or not…. This fishery just isn’t only about trolling. From a usage standpoint it’s way more used at this time for stream and river fishing rather than just trolling. Get the facts and stop always firing from the hip (lip).

I’d love for the state to only stock 120k kings a year and see what the impact would be on the lake fishery. Could you afford a tournament every weekend of the summer? Plus the high effort to catch them every day of the boating season to in the end hoping enough fish return to the Hatchey to recruit the next year class. Woukd the limit still be three a day. Would you sign up for that Brian? cause you think a high average of those four to six inch fish survive to become adult fish. Would you be willing to play the same game the AS are in? line up and tell the DEC you only need 120k fish a year that because most of them live to run home to a river you’ll be good. Heck then we can raise coaster Brook trout, pink salmon and sockeyes with all the hatchery space we’ll have. this isn’t an apples to apples comparison. You will never have a super sport fishery with 120k fish. The feds and the DEC are starting a new path and management initiative to find a strain that thrives in this environment. The science behind this hasn’t been in play YOY. and today we do have fish returning and getting caught to the delight of many anglers. You don’t fish for them in rivers so you don’t know what is actually going on. And a river angler isn’t a boat guy trying to fill a cooler. It’s a whole different dynamic. The last three days we guided two guys from Rhode Island. We fished around anglers from Tennessee. Ohio, and three from Montana. Four Landlocks were caught that I know of. One about 10 pounds. A magnificent fish. Many browns were caught as well. But those folks couldn’t stop talking about that one fish. For them it was cool, it was exciting. For them it was good enough. Don’t you worry Brian. We are good that they are in unicorn status for now. At least we know they are around. And we can fish for them. It’s the hunt that still makes it exciting.