King Davy

Yeah not the case on that particular fish, You know me well enough that I wouldn't be talking about a foul hooked fish. Anyway nice group of fish. Keep at it.

Scott, DEC I know had clipped VS non clipped fish last fall on their data collection from Spawning fish in Oct. . Dr Mike Cotterton I thought started the trailor in the spring of 2010 or 09. Not that it would be noticable so much in the lake fishery, but I've started to take notice that wild fish seem to be more tolerable of warmer water and make early runs on the Salmon. Aug fish I've caught have their adipose fins, and I personally don't see as many clipped fish till later in the fall.

I'm always interested in fish behavior especially if there is a distinct difference in classes of origins of which, in this case if and how naturally spawned fish may act or be different then hatchery raised.

A-Lure-A...no not talking about the Genny ...although I did catch a non clipped fish in there in Oct of 2012 on the swing up by the powerhouse that acted and fought like no other fly caught king salmon I have ever hooked.....jumping all over the place cartwheeling like a steelhead or Atlantic salmon.

Hey Rick didn't mean to hijack your thread

What appears to be interesting Rick from what I can tell all or most of those fish appear to be wild. I've been watching with interest lately at pics from fishing reports that folks get a bunch of Salmon and most or all seem to be either all wild or all stockers....wondering if they don't mix together well in their perspective wolf packs. What are you and the other Capt's experiencing in that regard? Usually a mixed bag? or a trend in one or the other when you get on a school of active fish.

I don't spend a lot of time targeting kings in rivers , but lately my experience has been a solid run of fish appear to be one or the other, and personally haven't seen the wild and stocked fish all mingled together.

For PA.....Linds and I fished a different section of a special little stream of the Catt watershed, all wild rainbows and browns. Lots of fish looking up, stellar day, wet wading, and some really nice fish...lots of little guys. Sulfers, and swinging a little wet fly. A blast on the spongy glass 3 wt.

Yeah PA that has been a good spoon for sure. I always pick up a few of those at the 1000 Islands Bait Store

Nice to see some of the Old school tactics. You will catch some salmon this way...especially in Aug, when they start staging near river mouths....hang on when you stick Mr. Salmon...it will be a treat to fight it off the take.

FWIW Crum.... fished around Clayton last week. The shallow shoals were not fishing well for Bass...they have moved off to deeper drop offs. Have a guide friend who has done very well on the bass so far, but we concentrated on tossing hardware for Pike, and we did very well... and had a fish up around 15, 16 pounds. I hear the bass fishing and Walleyes and Pike have bene good out of Mudbay down around the Cape. Fox Grenidier, and Hards Scrabble had been fishing very well.

I did well on just throwing a good old red and white daredevil....with the nose bent up for a wider swing on the fall when jigging the spoon back in.

I'd like anybody to copy and paste my words that state I wish there were no King Salmon in the lake. In fact my first post was to ask if anybody has ever tried catching these fish including kings jigging.  Next last I knew this is a free country, if I prefer to fish for other species instead of kings that is purely my choice. The question was what would you do if they were gone. I think I made it clear I'd fish for other species as I do today. Would I miss them out in the lake....sure. Would I miss them in a River...no way. They are not the same fish folks. All the things you love about them in the lake is not the way they fish unless fresh in from the lake in Aug or Sept.

I think maybe what bothers me most about kings in a river is they are disrespected so much. I've fished Alaska for nearly 20 years....I know Alaskan kings very well. They aren't the same animals as we have in our lakes. Kings in Alaska are in serious trouble ...are regulated heavily. If you know anything about Alaska you'd realize no fish is more protected throughout the State and watersheds then the Rainbow trout. Most places they can't be harvested...because they draw anglers before, during, and after all the salmon runs.

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Atlantic Salmon are a wonderful sport fish. For me as fresh water salmonids go, they are the fish I most enjoy fishing for. I could truly care less how you feel about that. But in toting MY favorite fish, I've never said we should replace King Salmon with millions of stocked atlantics. So get over yourselves.

One last thing....No Salmon fishery in NA and Europe creates more capital then Atlantic Salmon. 

Baitrigger....we have a breakthrough we both have a special respect and enjoy the Delaware. So good for you fishing with your kids. I get the teenage thing, but they may come around as they get a little older. We have four girls all at one time were great little fishermen...all fished the boat and salmon, one was an exceptional fly angler, and then they turned back into Young women and it's just Linds and I.

Gambler.....I no longer have much to offer on open water fishing...as I don't get to fish out there often. I did take a lady friend out in her little boat and show her how to catch fish this spring out of my old Port of Sandy.....and yes we caught our 40 fish, just don't think we need another report that somebody caught 40 cookie cutter browns and cohos. Yeah love Atlantic salmon...I did try and provide some perspective on what the A Salmon study is all about at the moment. Take or leave it...it's what's going on. It's factual, as far as what the "Scope" is from a scientific study perspective. The Scope is key....the effort at the moment is not gong to create a world class sport fishery. Someday....maybe maybe not. But trying to figure it out truly isn't ruining our open water fishery....so why not try.

People showing up to troll for A salmon. I wouldn't think we'd ever see that. Those that know A Salmon, and have experience with them, world never want to target them from a trolling boat. I do follow your posts out of Sandy as I've fished that wonderful shoal just east of the port for many many years and caught boat loads of fish.

I enjoy all fish, and why I travel to fish for so many species. Love my home  fish, and have a special place n my heat for Steelhead and A salmon. Always have. If some of you ever have the experiences I've had with these fish and a two handed rod in big roaring rivers where before you can count to four , you are through a 100 foot of fly line and 100 yards  of backing looking only skyward because this 20 pound dime bright beast is 8 feet in the air not once but EIGHT TIMES......you might still like your kings better, but maybe get from where I'm coming.

Not sure Baitrigger....I'm pretty sure I may have a few years on you playing the trolling game. I started in 1972. So for sure the hunt on open water to where many variables such as wind and current reposition the food web, and thus the fish, is for sure a lot of fun and a challenge. From your statements you've either never fly fished...or haven't been very successful at it. Do you fly fish? If your  from NJ ...hopefully you've tagged a few of your bass and Albies off the sound on a fly.

I don't get the Major League.gig....Once you locate Salmon they aren't all that hard to catch. A fish that grows from six inches at stocking to on Avg. 16 to 20 pounds as a spawning adult in three short years...is mostly doing one thing "EATING". Are they active certain times of the day for sure.....but have you not actualy caught them just about any time from Sunup to say 2 PM....and then in the evening?  

I don't know but all this major league stuff still sounds like chest pounding. And this is the "OPEN Discussion Forum" if I'm not mistaken not the LO reports thread. And if you've ever slid past the lake reports there is tons of other threads that include WARM Water species ....how terrible is that?

My statement wasn't that fish haven't been moved around, but rather entirely replaced....just because of the Atlantic Salmon.  If you work for MNR and state that moving fish from three hours away is much harder, then I won't challenge it. I happen to help float stock and bucket stock brown trout all over the state of NY and many times the fish are more then 3 hours from home, and we've never had an issue.

 Guys it's easy to check the stocking records on both shores from it's inception. Atlantics have been stocked by both countries for ever. People who've been in this game as long as I,  know that the turning down of Coho and Chinook stocking from our Northern brothers started way before the ramp up of Atlantic Salmon stocking. I sat in meetings with reps from both MNR and NY 20 years ago listening to reasons for stocking cuts on these species from the North Shore.  

Through all the belly aching on the advent of trying to figure out the A salmon puzzle....I've yet to read a single post that an angler doesn't catch King salmon any more. and it has to be because of this program. The reports thread as the fish come back off their wayward travel offshore following the migration of the thermal bars are going to be like the neon lights of vegas...right through till you boys put your boats to bed.

I know...I know....you hate to hear this...I'm truly sorry for having said this...and I probably deserve the spanking you are going to bring....BUT THIS FISHERY JUST ISN'T ONLY ALL ABOUT THE KING SALMON.

Hence Gill's question. What you'd do without them?

To Dave's point is it really a shock that not everybody that fishes this watershed doesn't hold the King salmon close to their heart? If your wife or best friend would rather eat a Chillian Sea Bass, rather then your all time got to die for favorite Prime Rib are they now an idiot?

We haven't disagreed that they aren't a fun fish to catch, at least he and I and probably some others have other favorites. I think that's a good thing. I can be just as entertained sneaking up on a trickle in a PA mountain stream, with a size 16 sulfer I tied at breakfast, with hardly any clearance from the forrest canopy make a perfect 30 foot cast into a tight spot of less then six inches to catch the current perfectly (which means I "Read" the flow to perfection), and have an inches fish (not in pounds) come up with the same reckless abandon as a 30 pound salmon attacks a fly or spoon and eat that bug.....and have the fish bend my 3 weight cane rod to the handle.

I like trolling, but I love hunting fish in difficult places and conditions....and there are no numbers that I derive as a successful day ...except the number 1. I'm an old old cat doing this for nearly 50 years...and all fish make me happy.

Gill started an interesting thread, I like it...cause, nothing lasts for ever folks.

From 1970 until what the early 2000's??  I could go out anywhere on our South shore and catch tons of black bass. I mean it was insane...100 fish days if you wanted to spend the time was doable. How about now? Was good for 30 ...off the hook good...now GONE! Just got back from the 1000 Islands ....never saw ONE boat fishing the St Louie from the cape to the lake on a perfect day.

It's all good....cause at the end of the day....with jobs, health issues, worriying about your kids if you have them, friends and family....It's just fishing folks. Let's hope we can keep it all in perspective.

Cheers.

One of the other reasons Canada has wanted for many years to get out of the Coho game??? They didn't return to their rivers well. Heck they might give up on Atlantics and go to Sockeye next, but forget about trolling for them unless  you can pull lettuce behind you rotators.  

And has been heavily funded by private money, and not all federal money. Gambler....they started cutting King and Coho stocking way before this all started. Coho are stocked as survivable fish that are nearly a year and a half old.....not fry that are an inch at length. To where a blue gill could eat it. You can believe it or not but with the majority of all fish swimming from rivers on the North Shore being naturally reproduced including millions of king salmon smolts, the Canadian's have been reducing hatchery stocking for a decade.

SY2....where has it been written that the Atlantic salmon study is to replace the other species? That's totally unfounded, but rather assumed I guess by suspicious thoughts of others? I've never understood this. While it wasn't popular in 1993 to cut King stocking simply from a science perspective to protect the food web and feed the fish we had until the forage base rebounded and stocking increases for salmon resumed..(which obviously it has and continues 21 years later) people have been crying about some under the covers covert operation to get rid of King salmon.

Native species studies have been going on in this lake and the GL since Seth Green started playing around the Genny 130 years ago. I stand corrected if there is great effort on the NS open water, but you and I both know that more effort happens on your tributaries from Sept to May.

Now I'm being a smart a$$ but I'm starting to worry about some of you folks...you must be losing sleep at night worrying about all the secrete meetings going on at the USGS, MNR and DEC to end the dreaded King stocking. REALLY???

Folks everybody has to seriously get updated on your facts for the Atlantic Salmon study. No hatcery space that would be produicing other fish in Canada or the US are being pushed aside for this study. The key word is a study. The current work is looking at results of strains, and more importantly how it relates to habitat. I fish with, and hang out with several biologists with MNR that have worked on this study. The 600,000, and soon 200,000 that will go in on the NYS side is still a lab experiment, that isn't focused on creating a sport fishery (YET!) It's to try and find a starin that marries to a habitat that encourages their return to spawn....and successfuly spawns.

And yes the results haven't been stellar. My Biologist friends have been diving in open water off the study streams and have witnessed 100's sometimes 1000's of newly smolted Atlantic's that have done what they are supposed to do, from the fry state. Smolt and head to open water. BUT they haven't retuned as adults successfully in measurable numbers. WHY????? that's the $64 Million question isn't it. It's science, and no matter what you want to belive science runs the entire show including the Pacific species.

Let me ask you this. Would any of you be happy if we were only loading 600K kings in this fishery with what has historically been a survival rate to adult returns of hatchery fish of less then 7%? The King Salmon fishery we have today has since day one for the past 40 years been a stocking number ALWAYS in the Multi millions. What happen in the mid 90's when it got cut? Everybody moaned and the salmon fishing was tough. But there in lies the key. You can't create even a hatchery sport fishery with less then millions of fish in a watershed this size. Not hundreds of thousands.

So stop expecting this to be a boom for sport fishing just yet. Also the target isn't to create a "put and Take" fishery. It's to create a fully natural fishery. Not the same thing.

If you think Canada would be spendng money on King salmon if they weren't spending it on this native species you aren't paying attention. If not this then Coastal Brook Trout, or other native species. Go read the reports section for the past three weeks everybody belly aching and getting nervous about where are our kings. They've always been there, beside the 3 million that are stocked there are millions more naturally reproduced, yet at times you guys think they disappeared cause you can't catch them.

And like Steelhead ...Atlantic Salmon are not a top contender as a trolled for fish. They aren't anywhere in the world. They are a river fish, and Canada happens to have more natural reprodcing streams then any place in North America. Especially on the North Shore of LO. A Dozen tribs on the North shore produce nothing but wild steelhead. One would think that they might also handle Mr. Salar. HENCE the effort folks.

And like it or not....it's just not all about open water fishing. And the effort numbers don't lie...especially in Canada. The trib game IS THE game. How much is going on on the LO Canada open water reports?

I'll end with this....open your eyes....we are the luckiest people on the planet when it comes to trout and salmon fishing. We have something for everybody. I've been fortunate to fish the world, and while I love many species in other places...there is no place like home. Go catch kings and big browns lakers and steelhead, and get off the Atlantic Slamming band wagon. Let the science guys try and figure this out. Look at the fishing reports on creels from the lake the last 10 years it's been through the roof with success. This Study for SURE isn't messing up your lake trolling. So why belly ache about it? You can help them by releasing as best as possible all the adult Atlantics you catch. Be part of the solution. Help us out.

I don't know ...but Baitrigger did mention a low testorterone issue which could be taken as a manhood slam. It's easy to detect all the chest pounding, and long live the king stuff as postering one's man hood on here which my generation would describe one who must pound their chest may be compensating for other "Short Comings". I never associated catching a fish with having a sexual makeup or being a "Man". I say that as I'm married to a true world class angler who easily can handle everything from Salmon to 100 pound Tarpon. If you've seen Linds fish, you would never mistake her for a man.

Gill asked what would you do if there were no King Salmon in the lake. DNR as myself, simply are stating we'd enjoying fishing just as much and in some cases more. Having a Trib devoid of the Salmon rapers sure would be enjoyable. I guess from the majority of the responses many of you would fold up your tents and go home. For us that enjoy all the fish in the lake and the Watershed system.....that's also not bad news. Less pressure more enjoyable experience.

While Pacific Salmon anywhere on the globe spawn and die, all the other migrators do not. In fact do the math, a Steelehad typically spends more time in a river then in the lakes. I ran a boat for hire for 22 years on the lake....and caught more King Salmon then many of you might catch in a life time. They are a wonderful fish in open water. IMHO They are not in a river if hooked and fought by legal methods. Also IMHO, a Steelhead hooked in the lake while sporting, in my 44 years of fishing for them in the GL as well as the rest of the planet are much more sporting in a river on light tackle.

I've read with interest in the reports section many trollers who have had trouble finding Kings through the transition period which is historically normal, reintroducing themselves both Pro's and Rec's to the other species in the lake, with the revelation that "Hey...these fish are fun as well".

I still fish all the Great lakes, and Pacific salmon fishing has diminished in most of them, but Unless all those fishing boats sitting in Marina's I see every year have just become summer cottages, those guys have figured out they still enjoy trolling the lakes. There is a huge faction of people who beat Erie to a froth for a fish that fights like an old shore, and you couldn't get them to leave their game for all the king Salmon in the world.

We are lucky to have such a diverse fishery. I'm willing to bet that most of you who have made it sound through your words that you'd be just short of slitting your wrists if no Pacific salmon swam in this lake....might actually change your mind if presented that situation. Stay home and weed the garden or go catch 20 pound lakers and browns on light tackle, or even a FLY ROD...who KNEW???? Some of us already do!

Yes PA, we've jigged up Kings...late July and Aug. Of course it would work for staging fish in Sept.

Gill T for the fun of it I'll toss in another angle.

Why always "TROLL"....ever jig kings, bows, lakers ...browns up. Seven foot medium light spinning outfit. I've taken 15 to 20 pound lakers as deep as 180 feet on a jigging outfit, and because I wasn't dragging them to the surface on copper lines and dipsey divers etc the fight was fantastic.

I may get back into the game once I retire, and offer Fly fishing charters for these fish. I've mentioned before we used to tether off my big boat in 600 foot of water and catch steelhead on flies, sometimes on dry flies off the surface. We've jigged up staging kings in August. The spring fishery is made for tossing feathers, especially in shallow water. July would be the tough month for fly fishing, but jigging comes into play easily enough. Especially when you locate balls of bait with hooks ideling near by. Rip a jig below that bait and hang on. Works in saltwater....and we've done it in LO.

As much as I enjoy the trolling game....I'd easily trade it for feeling the fish hammer my bait. There used to be a bunch of us in the late 70's and 80's who played this game out of the box.....I don't see it mentioned anymore.

Catching fish with Rod in hand ....all of the species are fun...not just Salmon.

Collin....nice job on the fishing.....I told your dad he needs to let you set up both sides of the boat since most of the fish are coming off your sets.(ha ha)...Let him relax and drink his "Cold" coffee.... 

On a persional note from all us Atalntic Salmon river fly fishers...thanks for putting that beautiful fish back for others to enjoy.

Rick no question you are a great fisherman, but it's truly not fair to the fish if you are going to take "Lil Walter" out as well. Better watch out if he shows up with a big rig some day and puts a crew together to take you boys on in the Tourneys. Never met a young guy more fishey then Walt..

They are Gill Lice or Flea's and they are in the Great lakes as well as the Oceans. They aren't the same as the sea lice you see stuck to the skin of a sea run fish. I was fishing the Sandy River in the Aluetian Islands in South West Alaska and we caught some dime bright Bering Sea Steelhead that had Gill fleas. And they do harm the fish with regards to growth rates....fish we saw were much slimmer, and also greatly reduced their energy....because obviously they are clogging their breathing. I've caught Steelhead in Ontario, Michigan, and Huron with them as well. DEC and MNR are aware of them, and from what I understand here to stay and pretty much impossible to get rid of.

Several factors in play for the setup and migration of Thermal bars. Weather and wind direction play a big role along with lake currents. In a normal spring (Mid April to Mid June) you'll start to see offshore temp migration around the first week of May (but can always be earlier or later depending on the spring). By the LOC derby first full week of May it's not uncommon to be able to locate fish a couple miles off shore, to as many as five or six.

My years of keeping data on Thermal bar fishing is I found my best fishing in the 49 degree down to 43 degree zones. Pretty simple head off shore and watch your surface temp gage. I always wanted a sharp break of two to three degrees in say a 1/4 mile. I would set up on the lower temp number in the break, and troll back to the higher number. Making north and south ovals until I had crossed all the variants.

Many days you'll find sharp breaks in as little as 100 yards, and you'll want pull back the throttles. The colder the water the more dense it is, and will become a barrier for debries including midges that hatch like crazy out there. I've found Coho's and Steelhead on top eating bugs that are hatching or just dying in a spinner fall. This activity also attracts bait fish species, and you pretty much have the dinner table set for you.

The rules in fishing temp breaks is....there are no rules. You can find fish in a half degree break many times, and temp breaks in the 50's also hold plenty of fish. I would run to the colder edge most times, stopping for sure if I found a quick drop in a short distance, but if not "I'd locate the mid 40's and then troll back in....figuring I had more fish in front of me then behind me.

I'm sure you'll get many more folks chiming in on this.

Rick.....The one thing I can say is that the River Stewards Fran has in place...know their stuff...they aren't just sititng in parking lots ...they walk the river. By this time frame it's pretty easy to tell the difference between a brown and an Atlantic Salmon....Male fish. You would have a hard time with the salmon kype and tiny head not giving it away....Male Brown trout don't  Kype anywhere near the AS.

Can mistakes be made in ID's for sure.....but the fact is this is what they recored being on the river every day. I would have to give them the benefit of the doubt .... They have no reason to make it up...the program isn't going away whether they caught 700 fish , or 4.

There is one other tell tale sign....in most instances....not all...you won't find a brown trout eight feet in the air...dead give away that brown spotted fish, that has a white or silver belly, not Butter yellow...isn't a German brown trout.

Tom DEC here are the words right out of the report - 2011

The 2011 charter catch rate for Rainbow Trout was the fourth consecutive year of record or near record highs, and was the 5th highest on record.

rainbow trout catch rates, at 0.72 fish per outing, were at record high levels for the fifth consecutive year. Catch rates were at or near record highs in every month of the April-September survey,

Steelhead are available to tributary anglers for nearly 9 months and for five of those months pretty much the ONLY salmonid in play. So pretty simple with the largest effort now being on the tribs that these fish are accessed often. But as we've all seen over 90% of the fish caught (and we also all know what makes them so valuable they are caught several times) are released.

In the same report it did mention that harvesting of steelhead on the lake was starting to tail off...so Lake anglers have started to understand the vaule of a great sport fish that doesn't spawn and die off as well.

Since the 1 Steelhead limit went into play on he Tribs Oct. 2004...salmon river returns of steelhead jumped from 3 to 4K at the hatchery, to well over 10,000 fish through the hatchery, with estimates from River Stewards that work the river every day that on a few of those years as many as 20K steelhead were in the river. The Lake Catch rates in that time frame also are seen in what DEC describes as record and near record catches.

Pretty simple if fish don't swim in coolers, they still swim in the lake and rivers...for anglers to catch.

Got another pretty interesting fact from the SR yesterday. In 2011, Sept to Nov, River Stewards reported nearly 700 Atlantic Salmon caught by river anglers. For there to be that many caught, there must have been a few 1000 that returned to the River.

Don't have figures for 2012...I would imagine they were lower with the low water issues.