King Davy

Gambler they until two years ago put fingerlings in at two to three inches. In other words bait. They anticipated those tiny fish would stay in their highly thermal relief streams for a year smolt imprint and swim out to the lake. 
 

Fingerling stocking has failed miserably everywhere. See the former LO Coho program. DEC plants yearling at about 60k fish and they grow and return to rivers as adults.

I believe for the first time Canada started planting year old LL’s in 2020 or 2019, after DEC in their joint meetings encouraged them to do so for years.

I have many Canadian MNR biologist buddies I fish with who confirmed a much different picture last fall on returns. Certainly not a landslide change but encouraging enough to stay down the path of stocking  yearlings.

But if on a course to just play grow put and take on heritage species without taking the time to protect them get a coordinated effort to do so from anglers, do the real science of habitat investment I could agree it’s destined to continue to fail. It’s either push your chips to the center of the table, or fold your hand. Can’t go have way… all in or all out. And I think the current LL plan is miles short of being all in.

Let’s get one thing out of the way. No species of fish is being considered to replace chinook salmon. Especially Atlantic Salmon. Lake Ontario and it’s tribs especially the Salmon River and the Genny was the greatest in land Atlantic Salmon fishery on the planet. There is tons of historical writings about this fishery pre industrial revolution. 
 

Atlantics are a distant kin to brown trout and sea run browns. Their temperature tolerance is into the low to mid 70’s for survival however they are a fish that is active in the high 50’s to mid 60’s. They are a variety eater from any kind of bait fish to insects.

they are much like our steelhead when it comes to seeking a river. While they spawn in the fall late October throughout November they will enter a river many months before paring up to spawn. Thereby creating a chance for anglers to fish for them.

I caught one of my biggest LL on the salmon river a couple years ago a brute of a fish over 15 pounds on May 2 as it entered the river.

I had a day landing four dime bright just crazy jumping fish on July 3 a few years ago.

I caught a stray LL in the Genny around thanksgiving that jumped 17 times and tore line out like any big salmon or steelhead. 
 

So they show up as early as May and can stay in a river happily for six months or more. Two years ago I caught three drop backs LL’s on the Oak on February 7. The water temp that day was 34 degrees and they were in the air longer than in the water.

In the last 8 to 10 years LL have only been stocked to the best of my knowledge at Oak Orchard and the salmon river. Two years ago LL’s were being caught in the oak In August the total stocking was about 60k fish from DEC with additional fish from Tunison at Cornell. I don’t think the total number ever exceeded 120k. 
 

we all know to create a steady sport fishery we need a lot more fish than that. However I’m in total agreement with Longline. Do the science on trib environments first to find ( if any) could be home to LL in the spring through fall.

Well South Sandy up north was once a trial river that saw up to 20 pound LL’s return in the month of June back in the 90’s. Then that program disappeared for what ever reason. Same with irondequoit in the 80’s.

Natural Reproduction in my mind is a stretch at this point much like it is for steelhead and brown trout in our rivers which would never sustain a sport fishey. But some wild LL’s have been captured in the Salmon river. Two summers ago USF&W did some river floats down the salmon seeking thermal barriers. When found and they are there, there could be plans on stream rehabilitation to encourage LL’s to settle in and around those safe havens when water temps got warmer.

Such a thermal relief area does exist in the lower fly zone. DEC has gone in there in the dead of summer and found healthy numbers of adult salmon milling around .

A sport fishing program for LL’s is doable since there have been previous successes. But they must find the right habitat, and will need more fish to see if they return consistently.

I read and responded to the draft plan. I’m highly disappointed in the plan as it stands and here are my reasons.

DEC and anglers both Lake and trib shouldn’t consider the program at its current state as a means to get more fish in the creel.

This is a historic heritage species that should be treated the same as DEC is treating restoration of wild Brook trout in NYS. I’m involved with a program with DEC called Priority Waters. We are looking at 100’s of rivers and streams where restoration of habitat would impact growth and sustainable native Brook trout populations.

There are a handful or LO tribs that “might” meet that target. Salmon river has proven it could and wild LL Salmon have been captured there. South Sandy and Irondequoit have also been highly successful with stockings in the 80’s and mid 90’s. Why those programs didn’t continue is beyond me.

The focus of a LL program if truly putting a plan together would first be done on if we have the right strain of salmon that survives and returns well to Chosen LO rivers. The Sabago strain seems to be successful and other strains have been tried but are there any other likely strains they haven’t tried that should be?  Next is there habitat in chosen streams that could induce a summer fishery. South Sandy did in the 90’s and the Irondequoit had decent success in the mid 80’s. The salmon river has had several years of solid summer runs. So it has been successful in the past.

I think it’s a mistake to aim this program as a “ Grow, Put, and Take “ fishery. It should be a locked down science study on if there could be a viable sport fishery at some point. Only after you could answer if these fish will find suitable habitat in some of our south shore tribs. And honestly if it were successful it truly would be a bigger advantage to trib fisheries than open water. Traditionally LL’s are a river fish.

In the 2019 to 2020 trib creel survey over 2,700 LL were caught in oak orchard creek alone. But this next year the run was poor. But of course there are factors that contributed. # 1 being the nearly 100% die off of the ADK hatchery fish in 2019 due to a power failure.

Also the misconception that NYS spends large sums of money on this program is false. One hatchery(ADK)  that provided fish not only to LO but also all the finger lakes. There are many on this board who fish the finger lakes and enjoy and are successful catching LL’s both trolling and in the fall in its tribs.

The Feds are funding the large majority of the cost to raise and provide fish for LO. 
 

The fact that there has been some highly successful years of at least trib fishing suggests that this program could be successful. But I think the DEC and the Feds need to focus on the science specifically on what it takes in fish strains and available habitat to say you could put a consistent sport fishery in place. And this honestly is way more of an advantage to streams and rivers than the lake but if confirmed it could be for the over all sport fishery.

There is never going to be a salmonid in the open waters that could or should be a replacement to the King Salmon. It’s a species that was built for the most exciting fishing and fish fighting in the open waters. But switch the environments and a dime bright LL salmon is a world class river fish on rod and reel, where the Chinook is not the same fish once into their spawning cycle.

To treat this as a science study on four chosen rivers would include for me, no harvest of this fish for a couple spawning cycles. A moratorium if you will and creel data with as many fish sampled in the system as possible. 
 

And personally if after a locked down study for a strategic time frame resulted in, this species is highly unlikely to create an impactful sport fishery so be it.

But this has been much more of a shotgun approach for many years. The last two years Salmon river plantings have been done at the river mouth just like Oak orchard that has seen the highest returns. So that has to play out. Will that make a difference? Also the Canadians stocked fingerling’s not yearlings until just two years ago. Fall reports from the Ganny this past fall were much more encouraging.

And finally there is the state of Michigan that has a highly successful LL program. Not just the Huron St Marys program that is truly world class, but the Lake Michigan rivers are seeing highly successful reruns of LL’s.

Get the plan put out as a coordinated series of stages to study Strain, habitat, restoration of the most likely viable rivers and streams everybody both trib and lake anglers onboard to catch and release and report each catch to DEC and the Feds to build a true data base that could prove viability, problem areas and possible “if” possible mitigation of those issues. If the result arrow points up, invest in the future. If not? Find the next project and fish to work on.

Amen Gambler.

His family had been on the river since before the revolution. I believe originally from the British isles. You can float through the water just can’t anchor unless you have a pass. There are several river guides who have purchased rights to float and anchor on the DSR. Further more they created a program for guides to reduce the guiding fee on the property to $0 if they came by during the off season to help groom the property for the Fall.

The more projects they helped with the lower the fee. And one could reduce it to zero. 
 

DSR has also invited PHW, CFR and other Veterans groups to fish for free, and we’ve held multi day events on the property that included lodging at no cost. 

Yankee!!!!!! They’ve been biting so good they’re biting each other.

That’s the thing about opinions…. Everybody has one. The DSR is an operation. They have lodges, a welcome center, and several full time employees, plus dozens of part time employees. To manage that they have to pay their employees and thus charge a fee to fish.

I’ve been a pass holder for 10 years. Purely my choice. What do I get? I get to fish without the garbage. I get away from the crowds, I always find a place to swing a fly without a hassle, other anglers are cordial… and I fish to unpressured fish who will choose to crush my streamer. So for me it’s worth the fee. It’s not for everyone and that the beauty. You have a choice pay or not pay and fish any of the upper 9 miles of river.

The DSR isn’t only made up of the Barkley land. They lease property in the 2 1/2 miles from at least three and maybe it’s four other land owners. The other land owners let Barkley manage the property for their lease fee for the same reason any other land owner decided to lock up their property. When it was free range slobs devastated their land. The got tired of picking up garbage measured in metric tons that included large quantities of human waste .

they could have all posted it and stopped all fishing except for them and their family and friends. Instead they made it a play for pay like so many landowners allow with deer leases. On a deer lease you have no right to be there if you aren’t on the lease. On this spate of river you can choose to pay and fish it or not.

the migrating salmon and steelhead do just that. They migrate all the way up to the dam. And settle in the up stream reaches to spawn. Yes Late run kings can and do dig Redds in the DSR. That number might be in the 100’s of the 20 to 50k kings that run the river. 
 

As far as steelhead. I’ve never seen steelhead setting up redds in the DSR. They are the longest migratory run fish of all the species.

if you don’t like the show….. change the channel. 

Man you guys can get yourselves worked up. If DEC approaches a land owner and asks if they’d like to sell a slice of property to be used as a PFR it’s their business. 
 

They probably aren’t dialing into LOU to ask what you guys think. And the DSR thing ….. my god can we ever beat that horse enough. Like HB2’s excellent example. The fish don’t stay in the DSR. They migrate through just like deer move around. Anglers outside the DSR get a shot at those same fish their license dollars paid for.

Three years ago I was part of a coalition of trib anglers and business owners who benefited from the fall winter and spring river fishing. The NYPA that manages the Erie Canal had been in discussions with Orleans and Monroe county,  DEC, fishing guides and rec anglers on creating base flows through Sandy,  Oak Orchard, Johnson’s and 18 mile creek to induce migrations of trout and salmon.

So fall of 2020 and 2021 they pulsed water all season until December when they had to finally empty the canal for winter. The results were highly successful in early and sustained migrations of trout and salmon into the streams mentioned above. This past season the angler usage was off the charts.

But along with high usage comes the need for more PFR’s . We talked about that in 2019 that DEC would have to ramp up buying more easements especially along Sandy and possibly Johnson’s.

So I just received an email from NYPA stating they and DEC is starting a campaign to search for landowners along these tribs that might want to sell easement rights. HB2 sounds like your closer to the estuary so not probably a play for you. 

Ha ha Lucky I had that argument with DEC last year and brought back up on the zoom call. Irondequoit creek has more access than Sandy. Runs 30 river miles from LO . Has great summer temps for trout and salmon and actually produces wild steelhead and brown trout,  king and coho salmon. 

Has tons of canopy once out of the estuary that keeps temps in salmonid comfort ranges. Has several natural springs. Sandy runs through agricultural lands wide open fields little canopy , no natural springs, summer temps in the 80’s .

Landlock salmon grilse and adults are river fish. If they can find a river with suitable habitat they will enter in the spring and all summer long before spawning in late fall.

the Iron is that kind of river. Not Sandy.

I’m a member of the TU conservation council. We are in the process of working with DEC on several projects from the Adirondacks to the PA border. It encompasses everything from native species such as Brook trout to Landlocks to rivers and streams that currently hosts natural populations of trout. We have an extremely detailed Map of studies and investigations done by DEC on 100’s of watersheds with wild populations. 
 

These projects include ground breaking changes that will include things like dam removals where necessary.

while DEC continues as they have for the last 50+ years  to manage with the MNR the magnificent Lake Ontario sport fishery , there are lots of other fishery programs going on besides LO.

DEC, USF&W and USGS will always be working on native species. From wild natural opportunities to bolstering better results for stocked programs.

Hurst led the remaking of the inland tributaries plans the past 24 months for the first time in 30 years. The changes have been remarkable in the result in the early going. 
 

landlocks are a struggle everywhere in the US but science and new processes are never ending for the dedicated scientists that are driven to find success.

Gill T No your statements on the Atlantic salmon changes are completely off.

DSR had nothing to do with any of this. This is a program change directed by Steve Hurst bureau chief of fisheries.

Landlocks are stocked at the mouth of Oak orchard. The returns to the Oak have been extremely successful ( see Scott Prindle’s trib report). The salmon river stocks have always been done up by the hatchery in hopes that as the fish migrated to the lake they would imprint.

However the salmon river has not enjoyed the consistency that Oak orchard has so DEC changed the stocking location to the river mouth.

The pen rearing of Landlocks again a Steve Hurst experiment. As far as volunteers to set up the pens and raise the fish the local trib groups up there has over 30 hands on deck.

Can’t say what is next if stocking is increased. The pen crew could still have raised steelhead. Was the decision not to do that cause of the kings?



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Well Gary the changes to stocking sites for salmon was purely made in this time of significant cuts to hopefully hold up the fishery in the next couple years with higher survival of stocked fish. Never had anything to do with sites that got dropped didn’t do a great job of raising fish.

Just tried to maximize what we had for fish through science, data (that was from universal studies of stocked fish survival to mature status). All understood there would be some pain and dissatisfaction to endure.

The panelists actually take a lot of responsibility to be the few that hopefully speak for the general fishing stakeholders. I can tell you the charter capts and river guides have the entire fishery in their sights, not just their personal businesses.

As for the rest of us Rec folks we try our best to provide input that makes the best outcome for the entire fishery which has become absolutely the best 12 month a year fishery in the US for trophy trout and salmon.


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Yeah but the largest user population by far is the average Jane and Joe fisherman. I can tell you Rec anglers and Pro’s don’t always want the same thing.

And there is very reasonable differences between them that need a common ground. And to have a manageable and productive meeting you can’t end up with 30 or 40 people in the room. Nothing gets done.

Look at many of the State of the Lake meetings that end in shouting matches etc. this panel is there to get work done.

The members also belong to the various fishing clubs and charter associations. And have been chosen because hopefully they bring with them sentiments from those groups if management decisions are to be discussed. We do have some in the room that own businesses that support the fishery.

This has been a much more challenging lake fishing season but then again are we really surprised? Three years of cuts. A draught last year that probably impacted wild production of Salmon in our south shore tribs. Heck in many of the smaller streams that normally get solid runs of brown trout, they never showed up because the fish couldn’t get up them.

So the browns spawned in the lake an estuaries, and were back in mid May mode out in deeper water not on the shore line in April. Water conditions contributed to that as well. But they are there. Just not where everyone usually looks for them.

I get a lot of flack for saying this but I’ll say it again. DEC has been managing this fishery for over 50 years. We are the only Great Lake that hasn’t crashed our program ever. Sure we’ve had up and down years like this year but there are some huge magnificent fish to be caught out there and this fall winter and spring in our rivers.

Tight lines folks.





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Yes I was mistaken they just weren’t pen raised.


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Brian of the 12 members, there are a combination of Lake interests both professional and Recreational. Some who work both the lake and the tribs and tributary focused.

The role for any member is NOT to be supporting one particular watershed, but to be able help DEC with management decisions for the entire lake.

The lake is broken up into four sections. West, west central, east central and east. And there are some 35 to 40 tributaries on the south shore that one must have knowledge of and be able to speak to in helping firm perspective plans.

So there isn’t a person on the panel that gets to focus on one stream, or only in the lake section they run their boat on. DEC expects members to be able to offer information and thoughts on the fishery as a whole.

I think, can’t say for sure that DEC might be entertaining some fresh eyes on this panel. I’ve been a member since about 2002, so I’m ready to move on if you or HB2 want to be considered.

However to fill my seat you’d have to be a trib rep, and I don’t think that’s where you want to be slotted. But Gary you might.

I can reach out to the bureau chief and LO section head and provide your names for consideration. With Covid we haven’t met as often. Normally it was about once a quarter. Usually some place central about an hour or so east of Rochester.

And then there are emails etc that you have to respond to. And some homework to do at times when new proposals are being brought forward. Personally I think they could use some new faces. But this is a group of folks that truly have decades of history of this fishery with tons of experience not only from fishing, but also an understanding of the science, how DEC does and can operate within the confines of New York State and so on.

You’ll have first hand looks at the future, and you are expected to keep those things within the group until DEC makes them public. So no social media blabber until it’s news that’s been made public etc.

Let me know… I’m happy to offer you guys up as potential panelists if you are dedicated to putting in the work, and have an open mind of following the process.

If they come back and are interested in looking at either of you I can message you their contact info and you can reach out.


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I’m not defending them Gary, only giving you my arm chair QB version. The big picture for the over all lake was to try and get the best results from stocking to maintain a viable salmon fishery when they knew this year was going to have the first big painful impact of three years of stocking cuts.

I and others opposed the Sandy situation. But the Sandy cuts were included with Wilson, all of Sodus, the Sandy creeks out east etc. So plenty of other disgruntled fisherman.

You can call or write the region 8 manager, the LO section manager and have a discussion. Obviously this year the horse left the barn.

I assume the next big decision is to get the final bait fish assessment so they can plan on how many eggs to take in Oct. if there is going to be a stocking increase I think we can make a case to get Sandy back on line.


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Brian actually while I agree Domestics played a huge role in filling the gap from salmon to the trout runs on Sandy, they were prolific on the Oak, Irondequoit, Maxwell, salmon creek in pultneyville, and even Mill creek.

But my point is by losing kings, steelhead and domestics at Sandy… Sandy took the biggest hit of all of the stocking restructuring.

Sandy has become a true destination brown trout fishery, it will get even more browns but losing these other fish while I’m sure stragglers will show up will change the face of that stream. And certainly the open water near shore fishery in the fall.

But losing domestics is going to impact several watersheds.

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Don’t have the exact number handy but I believe they stocked 70k domestic bows, and would replace that number with brown trout.

I think the one brown trout limit on the tribs is going to start to pay dividends to the lake fishery in the next few years as well.




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Genny gets 111k salmon. A larger allotment of browns and steelhead. The browns are still stocked at a few different locations along the lake in Monroe county.


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Well HB2 the domestic rainbow program is over. They shut down that stocking in favor of raising more browns. So most locations are getting more browns.

We placed 4th in the summer LOC in the brown trout division. And we put our time in fishing for browns and our experience was plenty of yearling browns, mixed in with the big fish we caught. The little brownies were as wide as they were long. All out of Braddocks. The one charter Capt I know out of Braddocks has been clobbering the browns when the temps are tight.

Our weather and water temp structure has been all over the map this year. I believe that’s our biggest culprit.

DEC are science guys but they do have bosses in Albany. So it would be foolish not to think there is pressure to find high economic return.


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HB2 your a business man , I was for 43 years it’s always going to come down to $$$ as part of the decision. My post was what I figured played in, not what was told to us.

The fishing on the lake reminds me of that 97/99 fishing. Running all over the place to put a good day together. Back then we turned to steelhead, browns and lakers to get rods moving because with stocking reductions salmon fishing was tough.

But we caught them as well .


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The science of survival was a culmination of stocked fisheries in general not just LO. And HB2 while it wasn’t admitted to us on the panel, I’m sure decisions are focused on greatest bang for your buck. Although Sandy during the trib season sees anglers from as far away as Oregon, Montana, and Colorado, and a flush of folks from PA, Ohio, and Jersey, there isn’t the infrastructure on and around Sandy to support a large group of anglers that are towing boats and needing lodging close buy or spots for bigger boats with water and power etc.

It’s the biggest little port on the lake success fishing wise but it can’t handle large groups of people who want to stay by their boats.

Trib wise these guys already drove many hours to get here. So the 15 minute ride from Hamlin to Greece where there are 100’s of rooms, and places to eat is no big deal. They aren’t lugging boats and trailers
Around.

We should all know by now that these management programs are never going to make 100 percent happy. Hang in there folks. I’m sure things will change again. Hopefully to get Dandy back on board.


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