dreamsteelie

"I credit Vince, Tom Burke, Chris L., Pete Alex and Bob for each taking a stab at rationalizing this for me. A few of their points made a valid sense. I still feel way "over-par" when thinking in terms of competing fairly, but am willing to play it out and see how I feel after the event. I feel that particular "issue" is going to be "in the jury's hands" until we get a season behind us."

Tom, how do you think I feel when I voluntarily fish an event on Lake O or in Oswego? in your home port against your pool of Sharks????? Like your event in August? What are my chances when I toss my walleye rods aside, load the salmon gear, load my salmon BRAIN into my skull, load the 27 on the trailer, drive over 200 miles, practice fish a day and one half (if Oswego isn't boiling with 10 footers) and have to figure it out against you and the other Oswegian Sharks??? Probably not good. However, I do it often or would do it cuz I love the events first and foremost not because I a thinking of a paycheck...

Heck, you and many others (pro or am) fish more days in a season that I do/have in several years combined... I still do it because I love to fish the event !

Build a tournament and I will come... LOL

Captain Pete

Vision Quest

Port of Erie, PA (long way from Lake O)

I have participated on the committee involved with suggesting many of the changes placed on the table. I can say, that none of the people involved (including myself) are looking at these changes to better themselves personally or to allow the pro boats to make more money or gain an edge. A lot of people felt that the Pro-Ams needed a face lift and that the Am participation was weakening.

A new concept was suggested along with a variety of changes we felt were for the benefit of most if not all. These changes, concepts etc... took some time to fine tune and a lot of people put some time into this newly proposed tournament format. Pro's/cons were laid out by everyone involved in an effort to minimize negativity and to make an event where Pro and am can compete side by side.

I myself felt like I was always at a disadvantage (and still do) coming from Lake Erie and traveling to fish against local Pro boats with a day or two of practice and not being tuned it to your lake. So, I can understand the disadvantage feeling. However, I continued to do so because I love to tournament fish and love to fish against the local Hero's and love it even more when we do well against them. I also loved the tourney atmosphere, seeing the guys and the rush of the event. Most of us feel the same.

This new format allows a lot of strategy from day to day and a lot of ways to win some $$. It is an exciting concept. It also allows one to compete after a stroke first day, where before, if you stroked day One, your chances of a pay check were pretty dim. This alone will help prevent team info. sharing from one day to the next cuz everyone is still in it on day two with just a smuch money to win. This will also help prevent Am and Pro from sharing like they did in the past. Now everyone is competing against each other.

As far as rods go, Brian hit it right on the head. Its not all about how many rods but how effective those rods are. There are days when 15 rods aren't gonna help you much and there's days when 6 rods can get you 40 bites...

Whether its 4,5 6,7,8 or 9... It comes down to OUR ability to make em go...

The WHI, Tightlines and KOTL events are littered with smaller boats who dont care about whether we have big boats. In fact, the guys with small boats take pleasure in it when they beat the guys with big rigs... I recall The original Prime Time team (Pete Lahosky and the boys) taking it to everyone in a smaller open center console rig. I dont ever recall them loading more than 8 rods on the boat either. They fished what they had and made it work. No argument that big boats have some advantages but that does not make them better fishermen or make fish jump in their coolers !

VP also touched on some good points... Small boats have their advantages also... Like lower fuel bills, more stealth, able to run longer and faster under the right conditions... Its not all bad to have small boats..

I read a lot of LOU and Spoonpuller posts from guys who have no problem getting their fish in boats under 23 feet.

Entry fee: everyone will have a say in it. However, I would say based on what we have heard, $650 is the number.

Short box or long box... Wow, what a choice we will have to make based on our practice results and thinking about what the other guys strategy will be???. If the majority of the field is looking for a long box (12) and your on a decent big fish bite, you may find yourself competing that day against way fewer teams and way better odds to cash a check.. (strategy)

Think about this scenario with 50 teams. If half the fields goal is long box and other half is short box, your fishing against just 25 teams and have pretty good odds of getting a paycheck. Unless some teams can capitalize on both that day?

No Comm. As Tom mentioned and I agree. I would like to see it but I don't see that changing. There are ideas being mentioned to address this again, just like in Oswego last year. I think we will see a no comm. calcutta with some added cash in it to promote NO COMM. However, NOT everyone wants no comm. and guys spoke out against closing comm. Maybe some day?

I see guys short selling their abilities here and condemming the proposed changes before they try it. I think its worth a try and believe that folks who really enjoy TOURNAMENTS should give the new format a chance first. There is a lot of good input on this thread and its being seen.

Capt. Pete

Vision Quest

Erie, Pennsylvania

Rick,

I may have to let her use my user name and password just to catch a little of the girlfriend talk I saw.... Ya know, the 3 year thing..

She's pretty tenacious from what I could tell when I met her.. Not sure I would turn my back on her, esp. if you ha done coming

See ya next week.

Pete

Rick.....

"Pennsyltuckians" Now that was funny..

Nice work on having the Gusto to hit the water in Feb. Sweet catching and KILLING

Yup, us Pennsyltuckians do like to take our fish.

See ya in a couple weeks.

Captain Pete

VQ

The proposed changes are for 2012.

It may be a bit longer before those changes are unveiled but there are changes in the making.

Capt. Pete

Vision Quest

Good topic and discussion going here:

Here's my take.

1. There are many more articles claiming that eating fish far outweigh the LONG TERM risks. These have all been written by very credible sources.

2. What most don't know is that these warnings of 1 meal per month etc.. are based on 60 years of continual consumption at that rate.

3. Many of the fish tested are in the whole and not just the edible part of the fillet.

4. The State or governmental agencies MUST post warnings (conservatives ones) to Cover Thy Butt.. So they do...

5. It has been reported that consuming a diet beverage is FAR more harmful that eating fish.

6. What you don't know is that beef have very similar test results. The runoffs, atmospheric conditions that deposit toxins in the water also deposit them on the ground where cattle graze.

Our sport fishing association in Erie, PA pays to have steelhead and walleye tested on a bi-annual basis. An independent lab does PCB and Mercury testing on them. Now granted, they are from Erie and not Ontario but the results are Minimal=eat as much as you want. The same monthly warnings are issued on both Lakes so one can assume, they "may" have similar toxin levels.

I got into this whole thing years ago and did hours of research and read many, many studies. I cross referenced the articles, FDA levels, etc.. with our results as well as others. WHY?? Because I wanted to better educate myself as well as feel better about feeding those same fish to my children (I did not want to be guilty of NUKING them )

End result=we eat lots of fish.

There is a lot of viewable data on the right sites. You will see that Ocean fish and shell fish have far more toxins in them than Great Lake fish.

So eat fish and have a

Captain Pete

Vision Quest

Looney, hope this helps.. Yvan is a "little" slow at getting results posted.

FALL KOTL

1. Shirley B/Flush 333 points

2. Striker 1

3. Get It Wet

4. Fish Dance

5. Washing Lures

6. Rod Wrestler

7. Lord of The Kings 311 points

8. Vision Quest

9. North Shore Sport Fishing

10. Outta Line 302 points (about 32 pounds seperated 1st from 10th)

12 out of 40 teams boxed their 5 salmon each day. There were between 38 and 40 teams registered. No one knows final number for sure? Yvan left the last several teams off final score due to zippos being entered, so final results sheet does not help.

Lakewide King of Lake results (21 teams participated) Pay out for Top 3 only:

1. Shirley B/Flush

2. Lord of The Kings

3. Vision Quest

I like the one day format as is...

However, I would like to see a minimum of 3 fish for the Friday event or maybe 5 for weighing to take the Luck side of just one big fish.

If agreeable to 3 or 5 fish, I would support the $ 1,000 entry and pay more for Friday.

Also,maybe there can be a separate "buy in" for A BIG FISH for the Friday gig to reward those weighing a single BIG fish. Like an additional $100 and pays the top 3 single big fish weighed. This would be totally optional.

Captain Pete

Vision Quest

Our opinion is to leave as is. If enough want it or are complaining about it, then let them formulate a gentlemans agreement as well. I dont think the tourney committee should make that change.

Running far has a huge risk and expense associated with it and has no guarantee of success as we have witnessed over the years. it adds strategy and excitement to an event.

I say, the guys or the certain port that wants it should formulate an agreement and leave tournament control out of it.

Captain Pete

Vision Quest

[ Post made via Android ]

Nice work Bill (again), and great report. No BS reports !

Good luck on the East end. V-Man will hav ethe no-comm. agreements in hand again and thx for the support as well.

Captain Pete

Vision Quest

Nice report Rick.

Thanks for taking the time to do it with NO SUGAR coating. Just like it is.

Still two left... Go get em down east.

I am sure those 500's will have their chance at em again down there.

Captain Pete

Vision Quest

Great report and good call staying close and grinding on em'

Capt. Pete

Vision Quest

Ladyblugill,

You don't have to agree with anyone here but I am not sure I consider this crying or that we need to get "tougher". I think we all want to be smarter with this thing..

so really what is equitable anymore? it's just a fishing tournament. (Not just a fishing tournament-our team invests about $ 1,700-$2,000 at each event to do these. We kind of take them a bit serious. If it were a much lesser $$ investment and time commitment, we might consider them "just a fishing tournament"

do you really think the people from the east end who come to fish the west end tournaments have the same advantage as the locals or visa-versa. (NOPE: it is compounded when the locals can call a well established network and pick the right spots while leaving the harbor.-THUS more of an advantage. I drive from Erie, fish a day or two prior and go and play on the weekend. I DO NOT have the advantage of the locals and have the network to make the call if were on a stroke bite. I pretty much make my bed and sleep in it based on a day or two of prefishing/charters and I don't get out of it because I get "the call".)

how about the out of state fisherman who probably in the current times do more to support this fishery and these tournaments then the local residents, myself include. (I am an out of State fisherman and feel we do our share to support the events, both as a competitor as well as a sponsor)

i don't fish these things but am tired of hearing all the crying.toughen it up and quit trying to promote your own agenda. (Well, I would say if you look at the guys who are in agreement with this, it's a "pretty tough crowd". Secondly, If we don't "promote" what 50% or more desire, then were idiots and we should live in a dictatorship. Just roll over.....I guess thats why we have more than ONE political party in the U.S. of A.)

Shade, Ray and others hit the nail squarely on the head.

Captain Pete

Vision Quest

Ray,

That post was hilarious. I dont think mooning constitutes the form of comm. we are discussing.

These are all good comments without hard feelings. We must all understand that this is a "choice" that may not be for everyone altho my personal opinion is that "we" should do well in an event on our own and without outside influence.

The Pro-Am may never accept a no comm. rule. We know that but its cool that we as a group can choose to voluntarily do what we feel is right by NOT communicating. Democracy at it's best.

The success of many of the guys who signed it speaks for itself. Even if 50% agree and follow thru, we are better that 100% open comm. My personal opinion is that winning or doing well "on our own" is a sweet sense of satisfaction that "no one" can steal or taint by saying "they helped do it for them". But for the guys who want comm. or feel that help is desired or don't care, then so be it. This is about choice. Thats all and this is a peaceful avenue to do it in and we THANK the Pro-AM folks for opening the door for us.

Captain Pete

Vision Quest

I was asked to post the list of teams that signed the "voluntray" No-Communication agreement for this weekend's Pro Am at Orleans.

First, I would like to thank the Pro-Am folks for putting on another very good tournament (again) at Orleans (Niagara also) and to thank Mike Waterhouse for giving the no-com. some air time before and during the meeting.

This event, we had 33 out of 56 teams agree. Plus there was one team I could not read the team name signed by John M. Muehl. (Sorry)

Captain Vince will be requesting the same no-comm. agreement for the (2) remaining east end events and will seek your support again.

Below is a list of teams that signed on. You will also note that many cashed a check this event and did so in Niagara as well.

This was one event it may have been nice to have a phone and look for "some help" but the majority chose not to regardless of a spread out bite this weekend.

Am Teams: 8 out of 16 TEAMS agreed.

Dodger/Outcast

Prize Fighter

Gill T Hooker

Subject To Change

Fish Nutz

Agitator

Catchin Hell

Spoonfed/NK

Pro Teams: 25 out of 40 TEAMS agreed

Hammerhead

Free Spirit

Team Troutman

Vision Quest

Thrillseeker

Tall Tails

Hi Voltage

LoneWolf/Flat Out

Hot Pursuit

Ace Charters

Oh Baby

Violent Release

Billy V

Hide Out

Maverick

Cannonball Runner

U-Betcha

make The Turn

Get Hooked

Screamer

Top Gun

Runnin Rebel

Yankee Troller

Cold Steel

Off Season

Thank You

Captain Pete

Vision Quest

Hi Greg and Ray,

Ray, thanks for your thoughts.

Greg, I cannot speak for others of defend others who may have did what you mentioned. I personally did not and only offered the option with "hope" that others would jump aboard and support it. Obviously, this horse has been beaten and I do not believe that the Pro-Am Committee will add a non-com. rule and regardless of 58% or 99% participation in the voluntary agreement. They have their reasons to keep it open and we will leave it at that. The why's, what's, etc.. do not matter and it is their call to keep things the way they are. However, they provided a means for us allow on a voluntary basis.

That's a choice and may not be for everyone. So be it.

However, there has been enough people (Am and Pro) that desire it, so.... Here we go.

This agreement will be available at the Orleans Co. Pro-AM event with a slight modification to the start time for closed comm. (Proposed by Capt. Vince and others)

I also believe there will be a separate calcutta available for the teams that choose to sign the no comm. agreement.

Capt. Pete

VisionQuest

Here is the list of pros and amatuers that signed the no communication form, the same form will be available for the Orleans County Pro/Am at Oak Orchard next week. Hope we see increased participation every tourney.

Pros

Maverick

High Voltage

At Last

Billy V

Violent Release

Rebel Charters

Thrillseeker

Vision Quest

Top Gun

Yankee Troller

Lone Wolf

Get It Wet

Tall Tails

Hammerhead

Landing Zone

Free Spirit

Meatheads

Hideout

Dandy Eyes

Time Flys

Desitiny

Hot Pursuit

White Mule

Balls Deep

Cold Steel

Amatuers

Fish Nutz

Thristy Whale

Gill-T-Hooker

Satisfaction

Spoonfed/NK

Lucky Enuff

Hannah Christine

Cold Water Affair

Salmon Obsession

Rock N Reel

A1 Bait

5 More Minutes

Hammer Time

Subject to Change

Underdog

Rigger Tony

Thank you gentlemen for your participation and taking the steps back to the way it used to be

Capt. Pete

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

The rules and agreement will be at the pro-am captains meeting. Some will be circulated at weeks end for review and signature.

The agreement and rules have been reviewed by the Pro-Am committee and accepted. Please keep in mind that altho they are OK with what was written and what we are attempting to do, they still will remain on the sidelines in terms of enforcement etc... Also, please know this was not done behind their backs or without some input. The idea was started some time ago but "we" never ran with the ball. It was just time to accept the idea offered and get it done!

It is not mandatory but it seems to be what the majority have asked for so we have a means to accomplish this now. If 90% agree and sign on, we are 90% better off and there will be 90% less tournament teams for the 10% to chat with during the event.

There may be a lot of Questions and most if not all have been addressed in this form and additional Q. can be answered at the conclusion of the Captains Meeting.

For those who have been desiring this, your time is now.

Captain Pete

Vision Quest

Icefrog,

This was not to purposely exclude the AMs at all. I just never thought about including the Ams because I am focused on our division and I have not had any conversations with AM teams that showed an interest (til recently).

FYI: this form will be able to be signed by both divisions. The rules apply to both. However, there will need to be a AM rules committee to oversee it and deal with any "claims". I see Rod and Jeff want that ball so it's theirs. Vince has obtained a committtee for the Pro's.

It may not be for everyone but there are a ton of reasons to support it.

Hope this response helps.

Captain Pete

Vision Quest

Rod, I have not seen much on this subject from the Am division and did not even think that was a possibility. My bad.

V-man and I will be finalizing something early this week. Non to complicated but a C.Y.A. agreement.

Its not as simple as iy you communicate, you get DQ'd. The Pro-AM Committee and Counties will not enforce it and want to stay out of it. So.... Its more of peer group thing. we will be covering the bases tho.

If you and a couple others are willing to form the AM No Communication Committee, then have at it. The document will cover both divisions. If there are Ams that don't want it, it may cause a monkey wrench or maybe not? I am willing to sign and abide by it even if every Pro does not. My choice.

Keep ya posted.

Captain Pete

Vision Quest

As a follow up to the now ugly thread about comm.

This is it: The tournament commitees will not agree to close comm. for there reasons. They have their reasons and rights to do this. Right now, we have to play by their rules or don't play at all.

I will take Bob's and Paul's offer to formulate a closed comm. agreement for the Niagara Event and see how it is received. I have had passionate discussions with Vince and we agreed to put something together for the event and ask for the tournament committee's acceptance as well as all Tam Captain's participation. I have yet to find a cptain that favors open comm., so I will assume, most if not all will be Ok with a closed comm. proposal amongst the players.

In a nutshell, it will be for the team captain to accept and take responsibility for keping all communication closed from start to end. Observers to maintain control of all comm. devices and to watchdog suspiscious activity.

There may also be an award offered to anyone that can prove that comm. took place during tournament hours. (Even tho the pro-am committee will not be able to enforce or be involved)

With that said, we know it may occur despite agreements and efforts but that captain is risking his and his teams reputation if he does it. That reputation (if caught) will follow him/them around and it will be up to ourselves to make sure that "they" and all future cheaters get the message from us, their peers.

Ultimately, if it is accepted, we will be much further than we are now and it will prove to the pro-am commitees that this is really desired by us.

Based on what I have been told and by what Paul has written, the opportunity is ours right now and the door is half open. IF WE SO CHOOSE....

So, Vince and I will go to work to put something together for the Niagara County Event.

I hope the participating pro team captains can agree and spread the word about this possible change amongst ourselves.

Just to clarify, this is not a proposed rule change by the counties or commitees, this would be an agreement between ourselves and unrelated to the event rules.

Captain Pete

Vision Quest

Great thread guys and well put.

As I have stated in the past and to the powers to be... No communication is the purest form of a win or of doing well. No strings attached, no savior calls, no spolier boats interfering, no friend betrayals, no scoreboard updates all morning, and no games. This is the way it should be!

The last several years, we have watched and saw the results of open comm. Unfortunately, we have been bumped down by other teams due to last minute spoiler calls. My observers have documented as many as 75 calls/texts from some of the players which have all led to their success. My observers witnessed teams calling non-tourney teams that were already fishing as they entered the Lake. These teams would call several charters already set up looking for one on a "bite" then motoring to them. This is NOT how it should be.

We travel to fish these events and have a day or two at best to figure it out. A great disadvantage vs. locals. This local advantage is extended further when they can make 20 calls to different boats and get the best spots and info. This set up does not favor traveling teams at all.

We have opted out of the East ends primarily due to open comm. Its hard enough to figure the fish and water in a short period of time but to then compete against an OPEN NETWORK which involve some of he best guys in each port is getting old. We love closed comm. and usually do better in that environment. We are fishing the west end because the boat will be there anyway and we love to tournament fish. But may stick to closed comm. events in the future, its money better spent as they say.

Maybe the powers to be will listen to their customers in the future? Time will tell but Kevin and Yvan will "get our business" and the thousands of dollars we dump into the tourney fees, fuel, calcuttas etc. on an annual basis with the closed comm. rule.

Captain Pete

Vision Quest

[ Post made via Mobile Device ]

Not sure where NY proposal lies BUT PA did approve our 3 rod proposal during their April session. Should go into effect in 2012.

Maybe this info. will be useful to NY legislators to put a little pressure on them??? Now PA, and MI have it.

Capt. Pete

NICE Well Said V.P.

Vinnie Cheers

Tom, Green Tea Buddy, only Green Tea

Capt HR

VQ

Hmmm, points well taken gents..

However, if you think it thru..

Since were ONLY talking a whopping 5 fish in KOTL events and 6 in WHI, any contender "should" get their fish in every event. Right? if not, they should not necessarily be a contender. Altho Niagara would be the exception with a 12 fish max.

So, why not reward the guy who brought a BIG 5 one day in, yes a HERO box that really seperated him from the other 5 fish boxes BUT in the other events he was beat out by ounces since with 5 fish ONLY we often are talking a couple punds or ounces, Right? BUT those "couple" ounces dropped him a place or three thus costing them precious "placement" points. So, then the guy who hits "the HOME RUN, AKA Hero Box may win that event but does not get much past that for it...

Hard to explain with a $%#@ keyboard (wwish you guys were doing they typing ).

Mr. Paul... AKA FREE SPIRIT, This is NOT comparable to a 12 or 14 fish deal like past pro-ams where East vs. West made a HUGE difference, again, WERE talking 5 fish, 6 in WHI and 12 in Niagara.... NOT an apples to apples comparison really...

With 5 or 6 fish events, mere ounces can set one apart... SO,why not let the guy with the most fish win it all? which would probably mean the Niagara Pro-Am could decide it all... Like the sign says on the boat, "The one with the most fish wins"

FYI, I believe the 2010 KOTL was cumulative points and most of the guys "IN THIS EVENT" agreed and liked it.

Why would it "eliminate" ams? Maybe it would "motivate" some to move up?? Thats the "positive" way to look at it (maybe). If your an AM, and some self confidence, skill and consider yourself a good fishermen, then why not be in the pro division already and fish against pro's?? (my thoughts)

This thread was about giving input and NOT shooting ones' input down Like boats, we all have one and like different types for certain reasons... I like mine, you like yours but I don't tell you why you should like mine and yours is wrong?

I guess that means Tom's not gonna sponsor us now

The current pro-am scoring Challenge Cup system is complicated and we can't even figure it out without scores in front of us and a calculator and you even agreed, so why go right back to it with this one?

Paul, the man asked for opinions/ideas and that's what I gave...

Capt. H.R.

AKA VQ