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Canandaigua Crazy sailboat driver!


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i personally think that the rag boat operators think they have the right away no matter what the situation is they were told this by other rag boat owners or if they took a course they hear what they want, that is everyone else has to watch out for "them". Then like you mentioned the PWC. operators, Sweet Jesus, talk about brain dead. I'm not one for enforced laws, but having to take a PWC. course is a good thing, only this starts a snowball effect on all other things. I noticed in my 50 years of being on planet earth that the younger generation somewhere along the line lost a simple thing called "common sense" I see it in my own kids. I grew up on a farm untill 1974 when dad got hired at a new built terminal in Stroudsburg PA for Roadway express and I still worked on the farm untill I got my drivers license 1982, up untill then I drove everything from a tricycle to a combine, got my permit and passed my drivers test first go at it, now it's different, kids have no clue, then they get a PWC and they think everyone on the lake is just driving around aimlessly. On our hometown lake it's not only the kids the adults are just as bad. It's truly frustrating in the summer months us fisherman we must be on our toes when out there. I see no easy fix to this mayhem, other than grit our teeth hold our temper, come the end of August it gets much better as the goons go back to the city and the kids go back to school. I hope the rag boat operator got a lesson and nobody got hurt and he gives the fisherman space. Time will tell.

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I believe the law reads, the boat that has the least maneuverability has the right of way which would be the boat trolling with boards & other equipment out. This was told to me by a US. Coast Guard a few yrs. back. We have also had arguments with sail boats in the past!Not sure which is worst, the sail boats or the guy going east & west & looking out the back of his boat not paying attention when everyone else is trolling north & south! Geeeeeze!

That's what I read but then it stated that it doesn't apply to trolling boats ie sport fishing

Edited by darkwater1
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How would you interpret Rule 3 under General Definitions?

 

(d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.

 

http://navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesContent#rule3

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That's what I read but then it stated that it doesn't apply to trolling boats ie sport fishing

 

You are correct.

The blow boats have the right of way. Period.

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How would you interpret Rule 3 under General Definitions?

 

(d) The term "vessel engaged in fishing" means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls, or other fishing apparatus which restrict maneuverability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict maneuverability.

 

http://navcen.uscg.gov/?pageName=navRulesContent#rule3

I would think a boat that has planer boards out 150' on both sides of the boat does have restricted maneuverability along with dipsey's & trolling lines, it sure can't turn on a dime. I always stay outside the crowds as much as I can. I have also had trouble with the Cig. speed boats not seeing my boards until the last minute too and almost going between the boat & the boards & I always put flags on the boards.
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Idk.but I think because he was over taking you that you had right of way.they should make the rules harder to understand maybe if it was a full moon on a Saturday he had right of way and if it's Sunday then you do but not if its a leap year and definitely not if it was in the morning unless it's a Tuesday in the afternoon but only if it not a leap year within 500 feet of shore on Friday. I think

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I give everyone right of way, try my best when I have lines out too, if that guy came across me like that he would've gotten a new outlook on life, like a 14.5 foot sylvan in his boat lol. Sailboats are ok if that's what you like, but have some respect for the guys trying to do something out there!

Sent from my VS985 4G using Lake Ontario United mobile app

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We all have to give each other a little courtesy as most waters are multiple use, but there's always a few people in every group from fishermen to skiers that just dont get it! I had a couple buddies out for walleye one night recently and a carp fishing boat comes along the shoreline with enough spotlights that we needed welding masks not to be offended. After several minutes i light him up with my spotlight....he gets upset because he can't see!!! I said thats what i was trying to show you!! The guy ended up doing the right thing and shut his lights off, went around us and started back up going away. New York desperately needs a mandatory standard boater safety course that focuses on safe and courteous shared use of our waters.

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I'm all for boating safety and took the Basic Boating Safety and Advanced Coastal Navigation courses offered by the Auxilliary. I thoroughly enjoyed them both and am looking forward to taking them again with my sons. My problem is a lack of boat handling...I'm the world's worst!

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I was looking for some Seneca reports and saw this. Any vessel, sailboat or other overtaking another vessel must stay clear of the slower vessel. Second, a vessel limited in their ability to maneuver have right away over a vessel which can maneuver freely. When I'm pulling planers and have coppers and cores as much as 600 to 800 feet behind the boat, I am limited in my ability to maneuver. Also, if he was overtaking your boat, you had right of way. There is nothing in the rules giving sailboats right of way. That is a misinterpretation of the "rules of the road"

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Seen this crap happen in different ways over the years.

Charters pushing the small recreational's around in traffic, should not go without mention, as long as were talking the talk...........maybe that's a taboo subject? 

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Seen this crap happen in different ways over the years.

Charters pushing the small recreational's around in traffic, should not go without mention, as long as were talking the talk...........maybe that's a taboo subject?

well that goes without saying but still depends on direction of travel. I have been pushed out several times by smaller craft and some well known charters as well who think they own the water they are fishing. It's a common sense thing as well as respect. I don't want to deal with the mess of tangles or losing my gear but will say that if it came down to holding my course and the rocks well we are gonna have a problem because I carry my 45 with 3 clips along with some influential phone numbers before it got out of control. I don't barge in on people and set up on top of them and always yield the right of way but when I am fishing offshore and no other boat in sight for miles and a Blowboat points right for me that is a whole other problem as well. We can share the water just like the roads if you don't like it get the HELL off the water

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The law says a vessel under power has to give way to a vessel under sail, but when you have riggers down and lines out, common sense and courtesy says it should be the other way around. Is there an exception for power boats engaged in fishing? I bet there is for commercial fishing vessels.

 

The law also says that any captain must do his/her best to avoid an accident, whether you're on a sailboat or not.  You are not in a yield position if you are being over-taken.  You can only yield if you have someone approaching from ahead.  The sail boater clearly broke several rules.

 

Next time (hopefully not a next time) take out your phone and start videoing him. Don't try and be nice about it. If he had hit you, then everyone's life is at risk.  I would caution him off and take the phone out to ease the erratic behaviour. Most times (actually the few times I've had to do this), taking out the phone and make sure they know you are taking pictures or video, will get them to alter their direction and behaviour.

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I was looking for some Seneca reports and saw this. Any vessel, sailboat or other overtaking another vessel must stay clear of the slower vessel. Second, a vessel limited in their ability to maneuver have right away over a vessel which can maneuver freely. When I'm pulling planers and have coppers and cores as much as 600 to 800 feet behind the boat, I am limited in my ability to maneuver. Also, if he was overtaking your boat, you had right of way. There is nothing in the rules giving sailboats right of way. That is a misinterpretation of the "rules of the road"

 

A sailboat is considered having less maneuverability when not under power than a person with lines in the water. Your vessel still has LOTs of maneuverability with lines in the water. You just don't want to tangle those lines, as it will cost a pretty penny, but that can't stop you from powering down or turning sharply if you needed to to avoid an accident.

 

However, you are correct in saying that a vessel cannot yield if he is being over-taken. You can only yield if you are approaching something. So that's where the sailboater is dead wrong.

 

I am a fisherman, and I've seen sailboats, and other power boats do some pretty crazy stuff out there. And as the OP states, we have 100 miles of lake on either side of us, and don't understand why anybody thinks they need to be within 20 ft of the only other boat out there. It's literally stupid at its best.

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A sailboat is considered having less maneuverability when not under power than a person with lines in the water. Your vessel still has LOTs of maneuverability with lines in the water. You just don't want to tangle those lines, as it will cost a pretty penny, but that can't stop you from powering down or turning sharply if you needed to to avoid an accident.

 

However, you are correct in saying that a vessel cannot yield if he is being over-taken. You can only yield if you are approaching something. So that's where the sailboater is dead wrong.

 

I am a fisherman, and I've seen sailboats, and other power boats do some pretty crazy stuff out there. And as the OP states, we have 100 miles of lake on either side of us, and don't understand why anybody thinks they need to be within 20 ft of the only other boat out there. It's literally stupid at its best.

To me the term under power would suggest I'm going faster than a sailboat. When we are trolling at 1 to 3 mph we are moving slower than a sailboat, in most cases. That alone gives us right of way. Slower vessel has right of way.

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Great Lakes Lure Maker, that is not a marine officer's interpretation. Under power means you have a mechanical propelling device that is on. It is not related to speed at all. So, a sailboat normally has the right of way over a power boat, if not operating an engine/kicker. Here are the Canadian rules, I'm pretty sure US rules are the same, particularly as these apply Internationally. 

 

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._1416/FullText.html

 

Rule 3

General Definitions — International

For the purpose of these Rules, except where the context otherwise requires:

(a) The word “vessel†includes every description of water craft, including non-displacement craft, WIG craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.
(b) The term “power-driven vessel†means any vessel propelled by machinery.
('c) The term “sailing vessel†means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.
(d) The term “vessel engaged in fishing†means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict manoeuvrability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manoeuvrability.
 
Rule 18
Responsibilities between Vessels

Except where Rules 9, 10 and 13 otherwise require:

  • (a) A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:

    • (i) a vessel not under command,

    • (ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre,

    • (iii) a vessel engaged in fishing,

    • (iv) a sailing vessel.

--------------------------------------------------

 

This is where the sailboat was wrong:

 

Rule 8

Action to avoid Collision

(a) Any action to avoid collision shall be taken in accordance with the Rules of this Part and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship.
(d)  Action taken to avoid collision with another vessel shall be such as to result in passing at a safe distance. The effectiveness of the action shall be carefully checked until the other vessel is finally past and clear.

 

Rule 13

Overtaking — International

(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other vessel shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.
(d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.
 
There's more here, that makes it clear that the boat that is overtaking is the give-way boat, and the boat being passed is the stand-on boat.
 
Edited by TyeeTanic
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The "fishing vessel" is commonly misunderstood because it is not specifically defined in the regs. Recreational boats (which include 6 pack charter boats) are not fishing vessels.

Think of commercial trawlers, draggers, net tenders, and processing vessels whose hulls or rigging would pose a hazard to commercial navigation or wildlife if either or both would run aground. Your planer board or downrigger would not be a hazard.

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Under power of what? 30 mph wind? Or set throttle of internal combustion gas engine at 3 mph. Under power....vague term. Just stay away from traffic. That requires vigilance. Time to assess what to do. To me less maneuverability is more important to a vessel when land and obstacles including other boats are restricting movement to only ONE DIRECTION. In the case of being forced to avoid collision by grounding or unable to change speed quickly (such as sail boats) to avoid collision. It is something that takes common sense when you NOTICE you might hinder a vessel to one direction of course that just might be back at YOU on the outside. No one wants to have to change speed unless immediate danger of crashing.. fisherman with lines out tangled up from stopping (big money issue)or sail boats having to dump wind off by dropping sails (a nuisance mostly). Try to leave someone an out. If they don't give you an out, you can't change speed, you have let the offending Capt. get too close and no way out of controversy. Vigilance is key. Even if it's only one of two of you. You still cannot rely on the other person to do the right thing. Even on the road. Believe me, 4 million miles over the highways has taught me well about watch out for the other idiot. Until they prove themselves not to be. Rules of the road still requires a thinking mind.

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Great Lakes Lure Maker, that is not a marine officer's interpretation. Under power means you have a mechanical propelling device that is on. It is not related to speed at all. So, a sailboat normally has the right of way over a power boat, if not operating an engine/kicker. Here are the Canadian rules, I'm pretty sure US rules are the same, particularly as these apply Internationally. 

 

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/C.R.C.,_c._1416/FullText.html

 

Rule 3

General Definitions — International

For the purpose of these Rules, except where the context otherwise requires:

(a) The word “vessel†includes every description of water craft, including non-displacement craft, WIG craft and seaplanes, used or capable of being used as a means of transportation on water.
(b) The term “power-driven vessel†means any vessel propelled by machinery.
('c) The term “sailing vessel†means any vessel under sail provided that propelling machinery, if fitted, is not being used.
(d) The term “vessel engaged in fishing†means any vessel fishing with nets, lines, trawls or other fishing apparatus which restrict manoeuvrability, but does not include a vessel fishing with trolling lines or other fishing apparatus which do not restrict manoeuvrability.
 
Rule 18
Responsibilities between Vessels

Except where Rules 9, 10 and 13 otherwise require:

  • (a) A power-driven vessel underway shall keep out of the way of:

    • (i) a vessel not under command,

    • (ii) a vessel restricted in her ability to manoeuvre,

    • (iii) a vessel engaged in fishing,

    • (iv) a sailing vessel.

--------------------------------------------------

 

This is where the sailboat was wrong:

 

Rule 8

Action to avoid Collision

(a) Any action to avoid collision shall be taken in accordance with the Rules of this Part and shall, if the circumstances of the case admit, be positive, made in ample time and with due regard to the observance of good seamanship.
(d)  Action taken to avoid collision with another vessel shall be such as to result in passing at a safe distance. The effectiveness of the action shall be carefully checked until the other vessel is finally past and clear.

 

Rule 13

Overtaking — International

(a) Notwithstanding anything contained in the Rules of Part B, Sections I and II, any vessel overtaking any other vessel shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.
(d) Any subsequent alteration of the bearing between the two vessels shall not make the overtaking vessel a crossing vessel within the meaning of these Rules or relieve her of the duty of keeping clear of the overtaken vessel until she is finally past and clear.
 
There's more here, that makes it clear that the boat that is overtaking is the give-way boat, and the boat being passed is the stand-on boat.
 

 

I see what your saying about "under power" , however in the situation we are talking about, (according to US rules of the road) The Sailboat is the faster boat, and shall give way to the slower boat. Second, he was overtaking another vessel and shall give way to the vessel being overtaken. And 3rd, Action to avoid collision was not observed by the sail boat. No where in the US rules of the road did I see a sailboat having the right of way. ( or the right to force his way, or course)  In these particular cases, when using the quick reference guide, which I keep a copy pasted to my dash, the sailboat having right of way is second to last, after the rules I just stated. He may not be under power, but he still violated the first 3 rules, therefore he was in the wrong, in the particular case we are discussing. With that said, some simple common courtesy should be observed and we wouldn't be having this discussion. I think Justin was correct when he said all boaters must take a safety course when they purchase a boat. After what I saw 4th of july weekend, I would strongly recommend all new boaters take a safety course.

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Great Lakes Lure Maker,

 

We are in violent agreement. Read the second half of my post under the "-----------" the headers Rules 8 and 13 is where the SAIL BOATER broke the rules.

 

Rule 8 applies to everyone, even the person who is about to get hit by another negligent rule breaking boater.

 

In my post I was merely saying that because he was going faster doesn't mean the power boat has right of way. For instance if he was going faster and coming from your port side, he still has right of way.

 

The fact that the sail boat was OVERTAKING is the reason he is the give-way vessel. He could slow down (say due to wind) and go slower than you, it does not change the fact that he is still the over-taking vessel until he has passed (or falls back to a safe position).

 

Anyhow, we are both saying the same thing, different ways.

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Great Lakes Lure Maker,

 

We are in violent agreement. Read the second half of my post under the "-----------" the headers Rules 8 and 13 is where the SAIL BOATER broke the rules.

 

Rule 8 applies to everyone, even the person who is about to get hit by another negligent rule breaking boater.

 

In my post I was merely saying that because he was going faster doesn't mean the power boat has right of way. For instance if he was going faster and coming from your port side, he still has right of way.

 

The fact that the sail boat was OVERTAKING is the reason he is the give-way vessel. He could slow down (say due to wind) and go slower than you, it does not change the fact that he is still the over-taking vessel until he has passed (or falls back to a safe position).

 

Anyhow, we are both saying the same thing, different ways.

Yes, and I think sometimes sailboats believe they always have right of way, but forget all the other rules they must follow as a result. This has been an interesting and informative thread. Good topic.

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Yes, and I think sometimes sailboats believe they always have right of way, but forget all the other rules they must follow as a result. This has been an interesting and informative thread. Good topic.

You are correct. From my racing days, most sailboat owners do believe that they have the right of way at all times. Oddly they are aware that on larger bodies of water the only thing they must give way to cargo ships.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Lake Ontario United mobile app

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