bluewater1861

Broadheads..(Rage)

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Yeah the sight thing really bugged me. I do shoot frequently and have never had this issue before with any weapon, so I will obviously be more diligent there.  I can still see that arrow hitting and the way it reacted was very strange, the fact that it was loosely flopping as the deer took off really bugs me.  If it stuck  in a bone I don't think it would be flopping around like that, I would think it should have been stuck fast in the bone.  Not that it matters at this point, just can't get it out of my head.

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So after 3k views and much debate on the subject there are definitely variables that make the rage or expandable head not superior to a well tuned bow with a fixed blade broadhead.

My new thought on this particular shot is this:

If you are shooting an angle into the deers body the one blade can enter the hide along with the tip with the rear momentum of the arrow going forward the arrow kicks the nock end away from the penetration. Giving you the floppy arrow and poor penetration.

I think that having 2" wide blades going into the hide, if the blades are vertical probably ok on the penetration, if its perpendicular no good. ( Cam effect)

Therefore I would say that a three or four blade design may get better results on steep angles or quartering angles.

This debate is great BTW.

Sorry about you losing the buck, my money says there are a bunch of guys that read this that didn't post that have taken questionable shots( not saying you did) but don't want to be embarrassed, I've done it, I learned from each one. Guess that's my point, this post should teach us all to make smarter choices. Be it your choice in broadheads or your choice with shots and placement.

Sent from my C771 using Lake Ontario United mobile app

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since Im the one who started this post,thought Id keep you up to date and tell you I shot a 6pt the other day..Kind of hit it back and low a bit,but it went 50yds, and dropped..With my new rage

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since Im the one who started this post,thought Id keep you up to date and tell you I shot a 6pt the other day..Kind of hit it back and low a bit,but it went 50yds, and dropped..With my new rage

Congratulations on the buck! The rage really do shine with a low and back hit no doubt! Would the deer have died from a hit with a fixed blade, probably yes but maybe not as fast. Both are lethal but each has their advantages. I feel that fixed blades have more killing advantages than expandables. JMO

Sent from my C771 using Lake Ontario United mobile app

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Bluewater congrats on your buck.  I too use Rage and will not switch.  They are by far the most deadly broad head on the market.  I usually get a pass thru every time, maybe i am just picky on my shots but i never have a problem just ask the 350 pound bear i shot in 2007 with them, complete pass thru.

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This was the hole from my bear this year. This was a fixed blade.. Complete pass through. again, everyone has their preference and these are mine.

Sent from my C811 4G using Lake Ontario United mobile app

post-147003-14459890548554_thumb.jpg

Edited by steelie

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John,

I was actually wondering the same thing about the blades basically working independently and causing the problem, but the angle was very slight, it wasn't a hard quarter by any stretch of the imagination. 

 

Also, I remembered a discussion at an archery shop this summer in which guys and the shop owner were discussing that they each knew people that had used the hypodermics and had the point bend over on impact.  I thought of this today and wondered if that may have happened to my arrow? Obviously no way to know unless I happen to find the arrow.  Anyway, I have gone back to the Rage originals for now. I will definitely explore some fixed blade options in the off season.

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Steelie what head is that? That's an impressive hole.

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Took a 125" 8 with the hypodermic this year , heavy quartering towards shot, rage hit right in front

of shoulder and penetrated to other shoulder broke broke off( inside deer) took out part lung and part heart but when the deer kicked my arrow was flopping( no pass through) and I thought I made a very bad decision. Deer made it 100 yards and recovery was easy, normally my pse will pass through no problem but until we took the hide off didn't no I broke the other front leg and destroyed the broad head

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Took a 125" 8 with the hypodermic this year , heavy quartering towards shot, rage hit right in front

of shoulder and penetrated to other shoulder broke broke off( inside deer) took out part lung and part heart but when the deer kicked my arrow was flopping( no pass through) and I thought I made a very bad decision. Deer made it 100 yards and recovery was easy, normally my pse will pass through no problem but until we took the hide off didn't no I broke the other front leg and destroyed the broad head

Thru the years I have also hit 2 deer where the broadhead "mini blaste3s got hung up in opposite side shoulder and deer ran off with arrow flopping though they had about 9 inches of arrow broke off. Each one I felt sick to my stomach and gave them 1.5 hours before climbing down as I thought they were pour hits, but both times they were stiff when found,and only traveled 40yrds or less. My last visual on the arrow/hit isn't always correct. 

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Nautitroller, I think your theory is flawed. With a Rage the blade that would have opened first (if perpendicular) would have been the blade away from the body. The blades cross thru the head. That said the head would continue into the body until the other blade would contact the hide. By then it would be in far enough to not cause the cam effect. An over the top mechanical for sure would cause the cam effect as it has happened to me long ago with a crappy Rocket broad head. I still believe the Rage contacted bone somewhere. The arrow flopping isn't a concern to me because if it doesn't make it out the other side the blades fold back so there's nothing to hold the arrow in. For the few that I shot that didn't make it thru the arrow was always flopping and ended up flying out thru the air as the deer ran. As I write this I'm still questioning all the possibilities for the lack of penetration. As I push a Rage tipped arrow thru a piece of scrap carpet with just the tip of my finger on the nock I don't see any cam effect happening. Who knows what happened, all we can do is speculate. Well as I try this more the arrow actually wants to turn into a quartering target rather than away. As the blade releases it causes less resistance on the body side of the head and it wants to turn into the body more resembling a broadside hit. Just my observation playing around here in the house. Still thinking and typing. I wonder if 1 blade deployed in flight??? That would definitely cause lack of penetration! I wasn't there but did the arrow possibly contact grass or weeds before impact? Just some thoughts

Total Chaos

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Chaos,

As you said there are many possibilities, but I do know that it did not run into anything before it reached the deer, it was a completely clear line of flight.  Like I mentioned above, I'm really wondering if the tip did bend on impact?  If so, then I would assume it would have to have contacted some bone even though there was no audible sound.  That would obviously deter penetration immediately.

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I think that was a good idea to try the carpet penetration. The effect I was trying to speculate on was caming the arrow in towards the deer with the nock end angling out. Which is what you said happened. The principle that the blades float after impact reduces the cutting effect after the deer starts running.

I'd like to see a study on penetration and different angles, using high speed photography seeing how the two blades react as they come into hide. There may be a big difference if the blades come in at say twelve and six or nine and three. The swacker made their length from tip to blade longer to fight this problem.

My theory may be flawed because I can't prove it scientifically but I have seen the results and that's where I'm coming from and trying to explain it.

Good hunting to all!

Sent from my C771 using Lake Ontario United mobile app

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So much can go wrong and not enough testing to prove either way! Swackers are a flawed head as well. If they don't get thru the other side you'll have a bad blood trail as the blades are full inside the animal before deploying. They may not deflect but they have problems just like the rest. JMO

Total Chaos

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Just my take, but here goes. I can't see using a expandable for any other reason than convenience. Fixed blades will fly if your bow is tuned correctly. I understand sometimes it is easier to just shoot the expandable. No tuning necessary. That's fine but you have to realize you have brought another issue into the equation, blade deployment, and pick your shots accordingly. Anytime you kick an arrow at all you lose penetration. You want to keep the mass centered behind the tip. I agree shot placement is critical but so are two holes, an in and out. If possible I'm shooting a striker.

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