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New reels for copper but need some input


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I have been running the numbers on copper and what I am thinking is putting 400' of 45# copper on a squal 30. Now this will allow me 650' of 40# PP backing (all according to Skipper's copper calculator)

 

I am also doing up a 300' copper but that will allow me to run 900' of backing but this isn't the one that worries me that 400 does.

 

So i guess my question is: Will 650' of backing be enough in most instances?

Edited by Chas0218
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650 should be fine.  I worry about shorter backing if I run it off a board.  The backing you have out to the board takes a nice chunck out of your backing.  If you run it down the chute, you can get away with shorter amounts of backing. 

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650 should be fine.  I worry about shorter backing if I run it off a board.  The backing you have out to the board takes a nice chunk out of your backing.  If you run it down the chute, you can get away with shorter amounts of backing. 

That's exactly what I was going to say!!  I was also going to add that if you notice that you are getting low on backing on a big fish, you can always circle him to gain back a bunch line in a hurry.  I started doing this technique quite a bit back on Lake Ontario when I was fishing by myself and in higher wind.  You just have to real like a maniac to keep the slack out of your line, and sometimes the biggies are a little too green to be netted by the time you reach them, but it works really well for gaining line on the reel, and closing on your quarry.   :yes:  :yes:

Edited by John Kelley
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I have been running the numbers on copper and what I am thinking is putting 400' of 45# copper on a squal 30. Now this will allow me 650' of 40# PP backing (all according to Skipper's copper calculator)

I am also doing up a 300' copper but that will allow me to run 900' of backing but this isn't the one that worries me that 400 does.

So i guess my question is: Will 650' of backing be enough in most instances?

Howdy Chas. I was looking at the Penn squall 30LW specs and it does have enough volume for what you are going to do. I feel the 650 ft. 40 lb backing is gonna be tight, but should be fine, be sure to wind it tight. I ran 50 lb backing on the calculator, and it won't do, however 30 lb leaves you a bit of room that should be ideal for your wind on flourocarbon leader.

Remember the 45lb copper really isn't a tensile breaking point of 45 lbs. so you won't loose any strength over the copper with 30 lb if you go that option. I have all my coppers backed with 30 power pro and never an issue with that. The copper will break way quicker than the power pro 30. The braid lines almost all are under rated by 40 to 50 % in straight line breaking point and use the knot strength basis, therefore 30 lb at the knot and braid tends to bite itself with certain knots. The only one not rated that same basis is blood run braid backing. It's the same diameter as power pro 30, but rated in straight line breakage, not at the knot, resulting the 65 lb claimed backing being same diameter as 30lb.

Good luck with your new reels! Sounds good to me! You should still be fine with the 40 lb backing. It's only 1 thousandth more thickness than the 30 and wound tightly should be no trouble really.

Mark

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Edited by skipper19
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i think skipper is right about 650' of 40# being tight on that reel.i set up a second 45# 400 copper on a convector 55 over the winter and was only able to fit 550' of 50# pp while getting is as tight as possible with my spooling machine.i think the 55 is a bit bigger than the squal 30.you're not going to want the reel overfilled especially if you let people that aren't experienced with copper deploy it.

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i think skipper is right about 650' of 40# being tight on that reel.i set up a second 45# 400 copper on a convector 55 over the winter and was only able to fit 550' of 50# pp while getting is as tight as possible with my spooling machine.i think the 55 is a bit bigger than the squal 30.you're not going to want the reel overfilled especially if you let people that aren't experienced with copper deploy it.

Yes, very close the 30LW squall is 370 yards of 30lb mono.

The 55 is 360 yards 30 lb. Mono.

10 yards larger with the Penn.

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Howdy Chas. I was looking at the Penn squall 30LW specs and it does have enough volume for what you are going to do. I feel the 650 ft. 40 lb backing is gonna be tight, but should be fine, be sure to wind it tight. I ran 50 lb backing on the calculator, and it won't do, however 30 lb leaves you a bit of room that should be ideal for your wind on flourocarbon leader.

Remember the 45lb copper really isn't a tensile breaking point of 45 lbs. so you won't loose any strength over the copper with 30 lb if you go that option. I have all my coppers backed with 30 power pro and never an issue with that. The copper will break way quicker than the power pro 30. The braid lines almost all are under rated by 40 to 50 % in straight line breaking point and use the knot strength basis, therefore 30 lb at the knot and braid tends to bite itself with certain knots. The only one not rated that same basis is blood run braid backing. It's the same diameter as power pro 30, but rated in straight line breakage, not at the knot, resulting the 65 lb claimed backing being same diameter as 30lb.

Good luck with your new reels! Sounds good to me! You should still be fine with the 40 lb backing. It's only 1 thousandth more thickness than the 30 and wound tightly should be no trouble really.

Mark

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I was going to use 30lbs. but was afraid it wasn't going to be strong enough. I used your chart and added the Atommik copper and the 40lbs PP to it just to get an idea of what would or wouldn't work. It has been very helpful especially when I was looking at spooling up some leadcore. I think you swayed me into going with the 30lbs. Allowing a little more backing and to get that flouro on there.

I'll run the numbers at work tomorrow on the computer to see what I can fit more of. How much room do you think that flouro will take up?

Edited by Chas0218
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650 should be fine. I worry about shorter backing if I run it off a board. The backing you have out to the board takes a nice chunck out of your backing. If you run it down the chute, you can get away with shorter amounts of backing.

That isn't what I wanted to hear haha. I was planning on running it on a big board probably about 100' away from the boat.
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I was going to use 30lbs. but was afraid it wasn't going to be strong enough. I used your chart and added the Atommik copper and the 40lbs PP to it just to get an idea of what would or wouldn't work. It has been very helpful especially when I was looking at spooling up some leadcore. I think you swayed me into going with the 30lbs. Allowing a little more backing and to get that flouro on there.

I'll run the numbers at work tomorrow on the computer to see what I can fit more of. How much room do you think that flouro will take up?

The flourocarbon leader won't take up too much. Depends on its length and how many wraps on the spool, but you should be fine with the 30 lb backing. Like mentioned before in another post, you don't want to have the copper loose, or close, on the spool or a Newby letting it peel off and overrun the spool. Always better to have a little room around the spool from the frame and the level wind guide. I use a 30 foot 30 lb. leader, you could probably do fine with 15 or 20 feet, and that would only put a few wraps on the spool. 30 lb braid is strong stuff, the worst problem is the copper with any knot. Some use a haywire to a spro, I don't use any connection involving any knot and that is another method using hollow core braid however, and not everyone has tools or patience to set those up. However, it is very nice when done! Smooth and 100% strong.

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Is 20lbs. leader too light? I was going to run 20 because I have a bunch already.

What size swivel should I run?

I've never run 20, but have used 25. Either seaguar or Gamma flourocarbon because those have never failed good knot tests. I would say 20 lb is minimal due to the non stretch copper and backing. Of course a lot plays into the initial force applied by an ambitious king, like rod action and power, drag set, etc. Flouro materials vary by manufacturer and some just don't cut it. I use the two mentioned exclusively with the best confidence in my experience. The leader is also somewhat of a shock absorber and the longer that leader is the more shock-absorbing properties it will have.

A spro swivel that will just let the 45lb copper through the eye would be best. It keeps the strands from flattening out so much in the bend. Once they flatten the strength goes down. I don't use swivels on any of my coppers, so I cannot say what size is best. Try the copper through the eye of the swivel and see if it just passes through, that would be the one that I would choose. I recall others suggesting a size 8?

As far as leader test, 20 is going to be your limit on breakage. Copper maybe 20 to 25 probably not 30. Your backing is still the most robust of the combo. Just a consideration about that whole combo. I tend to set my drag a little tight on coppers in the chute for better hookup, but also take consideration in the rod power features.

Mark

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Is 20lbs. leader too light? I was going to run 20 because I have a bunch already.

 

What size swivel should I run?

I use the SPRO heavy swivels.  Size 3.

 

https://www.spro.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SHSB-ALL

 

I am curious about details of Skipper's tedious no-knot solution... 

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I would buy a Daiwa seagate 60 for your 400. You'll have room for a lot more backing and a faster retrieve. There's one on eBay right now for $135. I usually run 20 lbs leaders on my coppers. Because I run a lot of spoons on them. But I'm buying 25 next time around.

Edited by BAZOOKAJOE
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I would buy a Daiwa seagate 60 for your 400. You'll have room for a lot more backing and a faster retrieve. There's one on eBay right now for $135. I usually run 20 lbs leaders on my coppers. Because I run a lot of spoons on them. But I'm buying 25 next time around.

You having a lot of break offs with 20lbs?
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You having a lot of break offs with 20lbs?

20 is probably ok,. If you are using it now for riggers. You probably know how to play your fish without breakoffs, even with 12lb. Others in your party might not be aware of the finnese of lighter lines. One thing to consider is how much pressure you can put on a fresh king before he spools your 650 feet! 30 would be better. Even if the fish doesn't spool you, there is that bung hole tighten that happens if you are solo and only a few wraps left and the core of the spool is highly visible, no one at the helm!...been there. Very alarming [emoji90]

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20 is probably ok,. If you are using it now for riggers. You probably know how to play your fish without breakoffs, even with 12lb. Others in your party might not be aware of the finnese of lighter lines. One thing to consider is how much pressure you can put on a fresh king before he spools your 650 feet! 30 would be better. Even if the fish doesn't spool you, there is that bung hole tighten that happens if you are solo and only a few wraps left and the core of the spool is highly visible, no one at the helm!...been there. Very alarming [emoji90]

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I have actually been using 15 but picked up some 20 about 2 weeks ago to start changing over my rigger rods to experiment with. Yeah there has been a little pucker effect in the past.

Edited by Chas0218
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Marks (skipper19's) information can be "taken to the bank" and if anyone is puzzling through this stuff I'd go with it as stated. I guess I'm not quite as "patient" (or perhaps competent) tying knots :lol: however and I use #8 Spro swivels (50 lb test) for most connections as they go through nearly all eyelets and rod tips fine if using carefully tied or wound (wire) knots. I have also lived on the edge of the cliff with my fluoro leaders as I use 20 lb exclusively on my setups as I fish multiple waters and switch between copper and core rods a lot and don't feel like changing all the time although I also often use 12 lb on the Fingers . The one thing that is critical is the drags on the reels used because if there are any "sticky" spots on them with a big king especially on an initial hit or unexpected run the lighter fluoro can be "unforgiving"  and if you try to get away with the cheap stuff is used it usually snaps at the knot or any slight undetected "ding" in the line. Something to keep in mind too is that the actual breaking strength of braid such as Power Pro is usually quite a bit stronger than stated if relatively new and in good condition (just try to break some 10 lb braid with your hands some time) so using 30 lb. should be fine for most applications if worried about space on the reel. Using the standard clinch knot with braid is not recommended by the makers of Power Pro by the way as it can slip at the knot. This can be minimized though by using an extra loop and cinching tightly and carefully if this is your "favorite go to" knot :)

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Can you get enough copper on a okuma 453d to run proper depths?

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Ken, I assume you are talking about the cold water series reel? It shows 330 yards of 30lb mono capacity. If you want to go deep copper on that reel, I would go with 32lb blood run for 400 feet. You can get 750 feet of 30 lb braid backing on that and have room for the 30 foot wind on leader. I have a penn 309 reel with that capacity and have the same on it.

The 400 feet of 32 lb will get you plying into 80 foot depths. Run it in the chute with 750ft backing and you will be ok. Out on boards can take away more useful backing and give the advantage to the fish! I still feel more confident with 900 feet, but also run out nearly 100 feet of backing on outriggers elevated 11 feet above water surface.

I just re-ran the numbers on the calculator, and 800 ft 30 lb braid will go on ok. ...not bad! And I actually like the 32 lb copper better for handling too!

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Edited by skipper19
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