State of the Lake -- Everyone please read

[DNRoch]

55 minutes ago, Gill-T said:

 

I believe the only one smart enough to vote NO for chinook cuts was Capt Vince. Every other stake holder voted yes to the cuts because they believed the science. Out of the Questioning of the science however, the trawler survey has expanded their reach by gathering a much bigger sample size. Lots of good came from questioning the science. I am all for ball busting but your comedic timing sucks. The news is good coming out of the lake. Be happy. 

The question become how many young were in the trawler samples.

 

Adult bait #s are nice to know and that is the key to having young bait around, but if all you have is 5-9 inch bait all over the place there isn't going to be anything for the young of the year salmon to eat let along the 2 year olds as well.... I really don't understand why most seem to miss this point. If you can't grow the fish to a big enough size to prey on the adults then you have lost a major battle...

Edited April 24, 2017 by DNRoch
deleted double words

[Gill-T]

Good mix to age structure. These are bottom trawls. Most of the YOY will be offshore and in the epilimnion. Also present were sticklebacks, deep water sculpin, gobies and YOY perch. 

[DNRoch]

And all of them have always been found in the trawls, but until numbers are published for estimating purposes these are nothing but speculations. Also that crack team of trawlers has always done the same grids in the same locations at the same date, there is a problem with that logic. Alewives are temp sensitive, thus too warm or too cold will have a major impact on the findings and count, as they learned 2 or 3 years ago when all was baren and the idiots had to do the trolls again after it was pointed out that you need to be in the same areas but even more important, same temp zones.

 

For as much credit as I personally give these govt boat, I give them just as much grief since there is little to no common sense that sometimes goes with those onboard....

 

[RUNNIN REBEL]

DNRoch you are correct. Those elder adult alewife are the only breeding stock we have the next couple years before these recruit numbers move up to breeder age.

The acoustic trawls begin soon at night time and will give us the better additional information on the Young of the year crop from last year.

 

GILL-T...........The king cut decision had to be made LAST YEAR, before  egg taking was happening and before that the  # of eggs to be taken was needed and before that stakeholder meetings happened to inform and discuss preventative action and before that a concern was noticed by the same science/boat crew you were with and others doing lake surveys. So to wait till last week and now  you feel the boat science and their efforts were wrong about 2 years in a row of missing Alewife population lake wide in the US & Canada ?????

HIND SIGHT is always %100.    I Think even Vince would agree the evidence the survey crews provide  are accurate now and then.

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

[RUNNIN REBEL]

DNRoch

I thought that way also for the majority of the last 35+ years about MOST government agencies. Then I got involved with most every agency involved . Both government & private and heck even college professors from Brockport college. 1980's with Dr Jim Haines---Rainbow trout tracking to currently Dr.Jock at Brockport with thiamine studies on Atlantics and the health of our Pen reared Salmon. So with that said I would like to invite you personally to dinner with me tonight with the Capt. and crew of the USGS Trawler KAHO in Port of Rochester-WEATHER RELATED -Not that nice up on the west end of lake now. To discuss and show appreciation for their dedication above and beyond. I realize this is short notice.

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

[Gill-T]

No, I believed they believed there was a problem with a void in age structure. You have no choice but to believe the science when making stocking decisions. I think the problem we are all finding is that on certain years the alewives are hiding in the North shore rocks where they can't be counted. The USGS is now pushing the envelope and probing deeper into Canadian waters. 

[Gill-T]

Speaking of hindsight......perhaps going forward the DEC should still collect and raise the typical fish species allotment even though a potential cut is warranted the coming spring. Seeing the swarming hord of adult alewives that are about to descend upon the south shore, it would be nice to have the normal stocking numbers in reserve in case estimates from the prior year were wrong. Hopefully the Canadians can dump in any extra kings they might have kept. 

[RUNNIN REBEL]

GILL-T     That is a good question, understanding the time scenario that salmon are raised and released before this critical spring trawls/acoustic information is even collected and analyzed.

I have brought that up many times and the Hatchery is not in favor of raising salmon or any other species to have them destroyed/killed for many reasons including moral.

I took a 525 mile trip around the whole Lake a week ago to see the Canadian natural rainbow & Salmon producing streams/river systems and pen rearing at multiple Canadian ports on a guided tour......The Canadians are well prepared to increase natural reproduction of trout and salmon. DON'T COMMENT ON THAT..... I did not think that was possible until my entire Canadian shoreline tour.

 

 

I am waiting patiently all mornings now, checking beach/coves at home before sun up/before shore birds/diver ducks/loons/Sea Gulls and Brown trout eat up the breeding-stressing dying . I have not had a die off in a couple years now, but would love to see more dying alewife than mouths to feed on them.

 

I am headed to dinner with the Capt. and crew of the USGS Kaho vessel now in Rochester. Which incidentally I took my wife to that vessels christening in Oswego.

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

[Gill-T]

Jerry you need to send me some donuts for all the content I push on your site! 

[brucehookedup]

Jerry you need to send me some donuts for all the content I push on your site! 

We are doing breakfast sandwiches and donuts and coffee


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[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

The single biggest suppressor of young alewife is the older larger alewife. We are currently in a situation where incredible amounts of larger alewife went unscathed. It's a waste of fish flesh, as not only could those alewife been turned into game fish food, more pressure on them would increase hatches of Walleye, Yellow Perch,  and Lake Trout all while increasing fishing opportunity for the highly prized Salmon. Less giant alewives and more young alewives will most certainly take the peaks and valleys out of the charts, but also improve the Steelhead situation as eating those large long lived Alewives certainly increased the thiamanese levels in their diets. 

[GAMBLER]

Along with stocking cuts, two pen projects are direct stocking due to water temps and late fish deliveries.  This is only going make for a smaller year class due to poorer survival. 

[Gill-T]

3 hours ago, GAMBLER said:

Along with stocking cuts, two pen projects are direct stocking due to water temps and late fish deliveries.  This is only going make for a smaller year class due to poorer survival. 

 

If that is the case then they owe those ports more fish. We were told they would decrease stocking numbers in favor of putting more fish in pens. 

[Lucky13]

13 hours ago, Capt Vince Pierleoni said:

The single biggest suppressor of young alewife is the older larger alewife. We are currently in a situation where incredible amounts of larger alewife went unscathed. It's a waste of fish flesh, as not only could those alewife been turned into game fish food, more pressure on them would increase hatches of Walleye, Yellow Perch,  and Lake Trout all while increasing fishing opportunity for the highly prized Salmon. Less giant alewives and more young alewives will most certainly take the peaks and valleys out of the charts, but also improve the Steelhead situation as eating those large long lived Alewives certainly increased the thiamanese levels in their diets. 

C'mon Vince, if this were true, why did we need to add exotics from the west coast to chow down the alewives, if the large ones eat up all the small ones?   The large alewifes should have eliminated the young of the year back in the days, and the population should have collapsed. Those of us who are old enough to have seen the real die offs of the 50's and 60's know that was not happening, and back then there was nearly nothing else for the big alewifes to chow on except the small ones, as perch, walleye, and Lake Trout were all at  surpressed levels.  I had heard that you espoused this theory of big alewife as small alewife suppressor,  (sure,any random filter feeding eating machine will get some larval and YOY fish of its own species), but I do not think that dog hunts.

[Lucky13]

32 minutes ago, Gill-T said:

 

If that is the case then they owe those ports more fish. We were told they would decrease stocking numbers in favor of putting more fish in pens. 

I know Steve LaPan would love to have that magic wand that instantly creates a couple of million fish that aren't already in the system!  Then he could generate adults, why mess around with little ones!    He could [probably use it to better control the weather, too!

[Gill-T]

11 minutes ago, Lucky13 said:

C'mon Vince, if this were true, why did we need to add exotics from the west coast to chow down the alewives, if the large ones eat up all the small ones?   The large alewifes should have eliminated the young of the year back in the days, and the population should have collapsed. Those of us who are old enough to have seen the real die offs of the 50's and 60's know that was not happening, and back then there was nearly nothing else for the big alewifes to chow on except the small ones, as perch, walleye, and Lake Trout were all at  surpressed levels.  I had heard that you espoused this theory of big alewife as small alewife suppressor,  (sure,any random filter feeding eating machine will get some larval and YOY fish of its own species), but I do not think that dog hunts.

 

Lucky, the theory is not necessarily that adult alewives eat other fish larvae, but more so the pressure they exert on the entire plankton community. When fish die from winter kill it is because of a lack of fitness. One of the key indicators is plumpness. Evaluating stomach contents of some alewives on the Kaho revealed some Mysis Shrimp and apendage evidence of spiny flea ingestion, however, most of their stomachs were barren. Adult alewives suppress other prey species by eating them out of house-and-home. 

[RUNNIN REBEL]

Meeting the Capt and crew of the research Vessel Kaho last night in port of Rochester, I was able to see a joint information collection venture between USGS and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife service. UNBELIEVABLE. The tests they were performing and the data collecting was great to see. I am going to need more time to relay this information on line here. As I am at work and leaving for Canadian fishing tournament in a couple days


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[RUNNIN REBEL]

Here are separate test being done on the smelt and all classes of Alewife


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[RUNNIN REBEL]

I will be going to dinner again tonight with the Vessel Kaho crew before they depart Rochester and trawl their way east towards Oswego. POST UP any questions you may have that I can ask them on here and I will try my best to get some answers.

Please keep it factual and civil ... Thanks

 

Todays trawl to the DEEP WATERS at Scotch Bonnet Shoals/Canadian waters  was canceled due the dreaded North east winds

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

[Gill-T]

Damn, I would have loved to see what they dredge off the bottom near the rumble strip.

[Gill-T]

1 hour ago, Lucky13 said:

I know Steve LaPan would love to have that magic wand that instantly creates a couple of million fish that aren't already in the system!  Then he could generate adults, why mess around with little ones!    He could [probably use it to better control the weather, too!

 

We have called on our Canadian partners for shortfall coverage in the past. They smartly raise extras as they have more hatcheries. 

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

6 hours ago, Lucky13 said:

C'mon Vince, if this were true, why did we need to add exotics from the west coast to chow down the alewives, if the large ones eat up all the small ones?   The large alewifes should have eliminated the young of the year back in the days, and the population should have collapsed. Those of us who are old enough to have seen the real die offs of the 50's and 60's know that was not happening, and back then there was nearly nothing else for the big alewifes to chow on except the small ones, as perch, walleye, and Lake Trout were all at  surpressed levels.  I had heard that you espoused this theory of big alewife as small alewife suppressor,  (sure,any random filter feeding eating machine will get some larval and YOY fish of its own species), but I do not think that dog hunts.

C'mon Lucky,  "exotics"? It's tough to be objective when thats the term you use around here. Lets call them "the remedy".  NO progress happened without the foresight of some great managers here in NY and in Michigan. They will continue to be the answer, no matter where your heart lies.

To your point, Steelhead have been devouring alewives in Lake Ontario for over 40 yrs. Do you have a better theory? 

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

6 hours ago, Gill-T said:

 

Lucky, the theory is not necessarily that adult alewives eat other fish larvae, but more so the pressure they exert on the entire plankton community. When fish die from winter kill it is because of a lack of fitness. One of the key indicators is plumpness. Evaluating stomach contents of some alewives on the Kaho revealed some Mysis Shrimp and apendage evidence of spiny flea ingestion, however, most of their stomachs were barren. Adult alewives suppress other prey species by eating them out of house-and-home. 

Exactly Gill-T. Just like the young deer starve in tough winters or when the older deer go unhunted. The prime food goes to the larger deer first. The browse line in Durand Eastman is very high.

The incredible population of giant alewives would have served everyones interests better as food for gamefish, instead of the havoc they wreak.  

[Capt Vince Pierleoni]

5 hours ago, RUNNIN REBEL said:

I will be going to dinner again tonight with the Vessel Kaho crew before they depart Rochester and trawl their way east towards Oswego. POST UP any questions you may have that I can ask them on here and I will try my best to get some answers.

Please keep it factual and civil ... Thanks

 

Todays trawl to the DEEP WATERS at Scotch Bonnet Shoals/Canadian waters  was canceled due the dreaded North east winds

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Be careful Jerry, you don't want to use up your yearly dinner quota before the end of April, LOL. 

Say hello to those hard working mariners for me.

[Storm Warning II]

Captain Vince is spot on. Look at Walleye and Perch numbers in Sag Bay since Alewife crash. There's a reservoir in my backyard that illustrates the point. Until it was acknowledged that Alewife were added to ecosystem and were predating fry stockings of Walleye to put and take lake and young of the year perch illustrated by missing year classes of walleye and perch and finally realized adult, unpredated Alewife were the cause, a limited stocking of hybrid White Bass elimated the problem. The fishery has rebounded since