RUNNIN REBEL

The DEC is open for Input on their Decision of potential Stocking Number reductions in Kings and Lake trout  for the 2017 year.

PLEASE PM me with any  thoughts and Question. There is enuff Quarrel on my other posts, so short & simple thoughts help point me in a majority direction.

Trying to put some #'s together.

Just had Fisheries biologist from Canada that Strongly supports adjusting (cutting) the numbers for 2017, He is representing over 81,000 members (also in support )of the ONTARIO FEDERATION OF ANGLERS AND HUNTERS.  www.ofah.org    The Canadian representative I see at the Great Lakes Fishery Commission meetings touts over 1000,000 members/associates.  A Non-Governmental group  

LAKE ONTARIO UNITED.COM   is unique with over 18,000 members and is open to EVERYONE to browse "24 hours"  7 days a week  in any state or Country.

I am looking for some imput

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Chuck,

I really do appreciate that.

I will tell my wife that, considering you are NOT a relative.

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

THEN THAT IS THE LOUDEST LOOKING PIECE OF DRIFTWOOD I HAVE EVER HEARD ...... JUST NORTH WEST OF MY BEDROOM ..........

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Tom,

Me and you may not agree on a lot of things. But You attend meetings, You use social engines CONSTANTLY and you express your experiences and question the people and science always.

I believe you put in as much time and effort as I do, If not more......

With that said we need to come up with recommendations the majority of us can agree to moving forward.

I also forgot to list the Pen rearing data, were we can increase our pen holdings up to %75 now (up from %50) in return for less direct stocked fish at each site (2 to 1 ratio on that exchange) ALL current pen fish up to the current %50 are Grandfathered in.

Tom,  Please check into the Hatchery water reservoir being EXTREMELY low. I do believe the DEC was thrown a curve ball  VERY LATE in the game---YESTERDAY on this one by Brookfield energy(?) 

Again , All the non existent turn out at these meetings I attended USA & CANADA is unbelievable to the people who did attend

You kind of stood out at the east end meeting I heard...... GOOD FOR YOU.

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Brian:  as soon as the current lake trout abundance numbers start appearing, I will update. Currently we are up last 7 years from the near record low numbers ever recorded since 1980 and  2006-2007. But last year was the 1st year they started a decline.

Pvelk : I am checking on the Canadian natural Kings egg take this year as a plan B.  Checking witn DEC personal (biologist & Hatchery) for problems here. It is possible to get Canadian eggs to us than it is not possible to get our eggs to the Canadians.

Brian,  It is hard to push for continued Laker cuts that have (again lag times of 5-15 years out) per cut unlike Kings lag time of 1-3 years only. WHEN WE (the ones who actualy control the laker take out there NOW) Protect them with eliminatinating the Whole LT division in the Biggest  lakewide derby we have....... Restrict the #'s of LT allowed in most Open/Pro-Am-etc  tournys, that we decide the rules on and compete in, PUT a 5 point bonus on them in ALL tournaments.....Charter Capt's (me included) drive over LT to catch limit of silver fish, then head in over LT water again to docks with out even trying for them.......Ask Capt. Vince or Capt. Joe Toomey or myself about Lake Trout control in the Oswego Pro-Am's years ago (miles of lakers from 1 Tourney day fishing them down over 150')

Hard to ask Government for a potential problem 2 years out (for a 5 year out solution) when we control the catch out there now.

Guess what we heard last nite about where Lampreys turn to for food when laker #'s just start to decline?  We are already seeing multiple Lamprey hits on every species out there (Walleye-Bass-Musky ) included..

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Very poor turnout. This was one of the best/informative meetings I been to (mostly charter Capt's there) I get some people not being able to make 1 meeting, When the majority of people can't make any of 5 meetings......AND you have a vested Interest and/or Passion in this fishery,

Brian G talk to Capt James Piano, he really questioned the Lake trout cuts.  Cutting %20 of Canadian laker stocks also (eliminating the entire Mitch-McCotton ? brood all together, Really.....Because we pressured them into this one. .Laker predation on alewife's from Port Dalhoise to Bay of Quinte is that bad ? This is a 5 year (when Lake Trout are big enuff to catch) to 15 year  Lag time to recovery each year of Lake Trout cuts. East end of Lake Ontario very divided on this issue. There are no more Lake trout in this lake now than in the early 90's and early 2000's. Lake trout gill netting abundance just finished up on the lake now. I will give LT #'s when I can.

Hatchery Reservoir water may run dry by Oct. (Power Company mentioned) NEW problem

****Getting CANADIAN Eggs from natural/wild salmon from Ganaraska as a plan B to hatch at Altmar (VERY GOOD possibility this year)

Fall Bait Trawls giving early heads up on what's there. INTERESTING question/answers on gizzard Shad. WE are going on bait trawls & Acoustic trawls to see ourselves what & how this works.

GREAT new discussion on Lamprey marks on -Kings-Bows-Most Brown's #12+++ ETC....Bottom trawls for dead fish/Lamprey kills

Dave Agness gave great perspective's/experience with All naturals in US / Canadian streams (Atlantics & Rainbows & Kings)

 He is seeing silver King runs LATE FALL in Genesee when trout fishing there.

Lake Ontario is EVOLVING....Less if any staging anymore, Kings no where to be found in lake or river mouths..THEN during 1 nite they run HEAVEY

EXAMPLE: Genesee river TERRIBLE KING fishing 2 days ago... Now more kings caught than probably  all Sept. (9 boats fishing river mouth this AM) & Heavy run up to/into falls.

Kings are running later in the years now.

Botulism..Why dead seagulls but no  Commorants

Commorants. Yes native to the USA &  NY State Officials lost the right to control them by law from the Feds

Only %15 boat creel data show limit catches now for Kings===an increase in King limits not warranted.

Last nite was non-stop Questions /answers until we had to leave a public Town Hall that closed at 9PM... Honestly tons more information at this meeting...................The back and forth questions was the best I have seen at  many meetings (Even with Capt Bob & Capt Sam leading Many directions ) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BIG thanks to DEC personnel & The people who made the efforts to gather information during these meetings

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

The SCIENCE presented there was PROMISING from what they see on bottom cameras going in/out of nets to GPS salmon radio tags....Possible help funding GPS tags coming from the general public and with the help from us catching 2 year old salmon for the study.

6:30--9:00 PM  Tuesday Sept. 27th will be the last public meeting before DEC final decisions to be made mid- October.

Town Of Greece  Town Hall    1 Vince Tofany Blvd      long pond rd./ Latta Rd. 14612      Monroe county.

All the 4 out of 5 meetings have been sparsely attended so far with 25-40 people total average per meeting, just a hand full of Charter Capts present and even fewer fishery related business totaled at all meetings.  I was present in the Olcott/Lockport-Niagara Co. meeting and I drove 400+ miles roundtrip to the Oshwa/Whitby Canada meeting last week to get the Canadian information/reactions. I will also be at tonight's meeting in Greece NY.   This is your last chance to hear the information presentation  and you can ask Questions yourself. A lot of what is on the internet out there on this subject  feels like last's nites debate. Pick & choose topic-too many different answers.... I hope Rochester meeting can generate enuff interest with a 50 plus attendance tonight and show DEC reps there that the Lake Ontario Fishery has a HUGE economic impact BOTH ways.

Hope to see people there.  6:30---9:00 PM

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm................... Maybee   %90 of the fish tend to be in  %10 of the water......... Or in Canada  %82 of the fish are in  %18 or the water...                 Sorry Bi-national TECHNICAL beat down  conversation I have at most meetings. 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

I glass west-Devil's nose/Hamlin beach point to East-Braddock's/Lighthouse point pretty much every morning from here on out. Larger flocks way out on horizon with calmer water lately.( Matt's layout boat waters)

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

It is like that up and down the lake. I have been driving to Canada a lot this past week.  Most boats at all the ports have been done or pulled before the calendar even says fall.  Salmon River inshore and Canada the exceptions to slow fishing.

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Saw the 1st. group of lake ducks/divers flying Lake Ontario shoreline Fri 23rd. Woke up early and glassed more flocks flying this Sat. AM off the front              "Turret blinds".  With cooler weather already coming, this should make for a good 2nd  option duck hunt if your low water puddle duck spot shoots up quickly. Historically they start coming down late Oct...  Brandt will be soon I would guess.

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

HAPPY BIRTHDAY young man.

Jerry

Last year I toured the Caledonia fish hatchery with my family also same day , It's that close.

Oldest Hatchery in the Western Hemisphere, and on the Historic Registry.

Jerry

RUNNIN  REBEL

Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

.

Michigan DNR  and Michigan State University are great sources of Government & the science  (University) behind it.

REMINDER :   DEC meeting TONIGHT in LOCKPORT

Cornell Cooperative Extension Building

4487 Lake Ave Lockport, Niagara County

Billy,

Fresh dead deer this AM on parkway in center median at Long pond (western end)

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

GREAT STORY PAP, and sorry for your loss, BUT memories last............

I am still collecting clipped adipose salmon nose tags in the DEC freezer located at my house again this year. PM me for directions or I can pick up. Thanks to Rick/Yankee troller and Jeremy/locked up for their efforts in collecting nose tags at the Oak Orchard location. Big thanks to Mark/skipper19 for saving the heads till I could get them.

Jerry

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Chad,

You asked for it (and I am glad you did) I also have a hard copy for you if I see you at meetings,   you will find interesting also.

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Gill-T  

This is the Canadian study. The published study is in a GREAT LAKES FISHERY COMMISION document.(glfc.org) I have hard copies for you or I can message you it. I will be attending the DEC meeting in Lockport this Mon. OR  headed up to Port Credit Canada on same Mon 19th for their Canadian OMNR version of same USA meeting. It was a 4 year study on clipped adipose salmon, and the approximate average of the 4 years natural reproduction number is % 51

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Please attend and question as many meetings as you can.

Brian  Tall Tails:  You are correct  A Pen Rear fish has a value = 2 direct stocked fish

Brian Gambler  Yes. I have brought this up at last Charter boat association meeting, What was their capacity in river pens to hold extra Sandy Creek pen Fish ? Even brought up the new "protected" Braddocks Bay as emergency option. Ask any charter boat Capt. present their what if any ? They will look into/consider let me know before I talk to you/Rob. Other wise Sandy Creek needs to locate a spot EARLY. I am looking for a plan B & C now is all.

Fat Trout  The Genesee Charter Association I belong to has upcoming meeting with DEC. I can see if Saturday meeting is possible. Would need enough interest and the logistics of our meeting place worked out. I would be happy to try and set this up Lake Ontario stake holders would attend.

Gill-T  Synopsis of pen rearing. Taken from  meetings both USA & CANADA

Pen rearing was started out as primary goal of "BETTER HOMING" in of Salmon to their respective pen locations.  That did not work out terribly well, ESPECIALY USA west end Niagara river returns were and still are bad. Canadian Pen rearing-different story: with relatively small pen numbers the Canadians are able to get kings returning to Bluffers Park.  A piece of Lakeshore that is enclosed mostly with piers of stone. Salmon swim around sailboats there with no where to run up any distances. Other locations in USA have had varied success (High/low water effects--staging salmon on river mouths BEFORE October) each port has different bars for success. The SURPRISE of it all was the survival rate that ALL pen reared fish showed.

What I learned

Pen rear fish ====== 2-1 survival

Direct stocked fish==1-1 survival 

Salmon River hatchery direct stocked ===2.1---1 survival (FISH held longer & released larger & later)

And Tricia (a friend and Statistician) As you know with only looking at previous 10 years of data/trends, I CANNOT STRESS the point of how important it is to collect/return King salmon nose tags.  Lake season winding down, I only have head hunting season left, The only benefit of low water.

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Dex,

I push that idea EVERY one-on-one chance I get (anther LONG discussion for another time). This  is and will likely continue to be a problem UNTILL we make efforts to HELP that decision making with nose tags actually being collected and turned in..

EXAMPLE: Fish cleaning station in Oswego, BEST Collection site possible for nose tag collections ANY WHERE on this lake. What happens to all the clipped salmon /tags cleaned there ?  virtually manned every day for months ? Experienced DEC personnel there no longer steady.

IDEA: We collect $$$$$ for pen rearing. Why not pay Jim (official fish cleaner) at Oswego cleaning station $1 per nose tag ? This investment would pay HUGE dividends in the data/ natural reproduction scenario. We already  pay him now..............sure he would love extra income for minimal extra work. The collected Pen rearing money spent  would still be spent on Pen rearing accomplishments,

Last point ( FOR NOW !!!!!!!!!!! ) The creel data you mention being collected almost NEVERS sees Salmon (let alone clipped salmon) Because almost EVERY charter operation out there cleans and disposes their fish in the open lake. It's the captain recalling the days catch verbally to a clip board.

I just responded to private text of a charter client from east end area of Lake Ontario who sent me pictures of Clipped adipose salmon that the Captain said " did not contain coded nose tags"........NO COMMENT !

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Brian you are the 3 rd great point.....Just having trouble here at work today....tuff getting back to computer to answer currently

Quick comment : The tagging trailer can actually work against us. With so many clipped kings out there and being caught (count the number of king pics on face book with missing adipose fins) VERY few are being returned to collection coolers. I have a DEC collection freezer outside of my own home to collect, I have a very few delivered. THANKS to Rick/Yankee & Jeremy/Jax for their collection efforts at Oak Orchard. So if not many are  returning tags ====a higher natural % number occurs. We are trying to use 10 year trends now instead of the Banner 1980-1990 years data. Point is the less years of data looked at the MORE IMPORTANT each data year becomes.

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

You guy's bring up 3 great points here

1 st...        A-Tom-MIK  Tom   Your observations and comments are Spot on. You are absolutely correct about attending meetings or lack of it fitting in to people's schedules. I see it every week now, Time & effort is invaluable. You have no Idea how much of our input was taken  into consideration of current Lake Trout cuts and RESTRUCTURING process we have on the table now. Again Tom your personal observation of a %25--%40 natural reproduction rate pretty darn accurate (after we take out the high %70 & low %37 years then average out)

2 nd.         DEX   Natural reproduction fluctuates year to year for many reasons. To get to current %50 average

                 2008 year class @ age 3 was %37 (drought of 2007) was our lowest.

                 Highest % of naturals  was %70  (YES %70 ) for 2010 year class age 3 salmon

                 This with  ALL other years in between,  averages out to the current %50. for Lake Ontario

                  Lake Michigan is %60 natural and Lake Huron is OVER %90...BALL PARK FIGURES...

Here is the problem, I need ammunition when I attend all these meetings and conference calls. Back to Tom Allen point about angler input & effort, EXAMPLE:  If the nose tags were collected from all the adipose clipped salmon  for just the actual 2 TOURNEY DAYS ONLY of last Canadian tourney in St. Catherine (It was a creel tourney were hundreds of total kings were kept on boats in 2 days) Actually collected and  turned in. That pen reared PROOF, and  NOT natural reproduction numbers would impact the ever growing natural reproduction numbers we are questioning now.