ac holmes

One point of clarification about the Morton project...Those shafts were about 20 feet across and 2500 feet deep. Each 8 hour shift would drill, blast and remove enough debris that allowed the lowering of a steel sleeve that served as a form, for another pour of high strength, steel reinforced concrete. Eventually the shaft of concrete reached the salt bed and a small city was excavated. I never went down there but some friends who did told me it was like a crystal city and quite beautiful...dry, warm and clean. The salt wells into caverns created by pumping out brine for 100 years are used for storage as you say, but access is by way of small well pipe rather than a 20 foot shaft with elevators, in the 2 Morton shafts. I am sure that stuff went down there. I saw many big Army trucks, covered in canvas tarps, in and out of the facility for several years, but I best not speculate, because in truth, I have no idea what it was. Some speculated that the excavation went under the lake to the depot and met up with another shaft there. If we knew what is actually going on with secret government stuff, we would be amazed and worried I think.

As I remember, though I am not positive, the US Navy maintained the barge and it was actively guarded, as was the nearby Romulus Ordinance depot in the old days. It is common knowledge now that the depot had nukes stored there for a long time, during the cold war. My current wife worked for the government in the 60's, and one of her jobs was representing a top secret agency in DC that documented the care and maintenance of these weapons. She once made a trip to the depot to document the assembly of some nukes. She told me the story after we moved here from CA. So it is not surprising that whatever was going on then was top secret, at both the depot and barge.

Three winters ago while I was in FL, I leased my boat on Seneca (24 Bayliner with 2 Honda 90s) to a friend who was contracting with the government to provide a rescue boat at the barge, while the Sikorsky plant (now defunct) in Big Flats "calibrated" 2 gunships that were being sold to the Turkish Government. He was instructed to stand by a mile away in the freezing weather with 2 fully suited up Navy divers, in case they were needed. No rescue was needed, but the government paid real well for the use of my boat (they required a boat with 2 big outboards for the contract). We never found out what exactly was going on, but the gunships hovered for hours over the barge, doing something electronic. Lots of wonderful stories about the Romulus depot, Sampson Navel Air Station, and the "secret" barge that the old guys used to tell. C5 Galaxies used to be in and out of Sampson airfield quite often and us kids used to love to see them flying low over Burdett and Hector.

One more mystery that may be connected to that area of the lake is that in the late 60s, Morton Salt sunk two shafts 2500 feet down into the salt beds, almost directly across from the depot. The Canadian company was called "Cementation" and they had sunk deep shafts into the earth in many places, including the diamond mines in South Africa. After sinking the shafts, heavy equipment (that run on propane) was lowered down in pieces and they began mining salt, but after a couple of years they shut the whole operation down suddenly. I knew some guys who worked there and they told me that some large chambers had been excavated by the time they suspended operations. Eventually the mine shafts were capped off and who knows what was sent down there before sealing the shafts?

Yeah...I still can't believe that I am an "old timer" and blubber on about the "good old days" because on the inside I am still 25 years old and looking forward to the next challenge and adventure. In that regard, I have an opinion and an idea, and next spring I am going to explore it. As follows: Lakers are bottom dwellers mostly, and I suspect there are some real big ones in Seneca. Maybe bigger now with all the changes in the lake and the abundance of bait. Mostly, folks don't fish for these monsters, on the bottom in deep water, so whose to say what's down there?

50 years ago I had a too many beers at the Eagle hotel in Lodi one night, and we locals gabbed a bit with 2 Navy divers who were doing some work on the Barge, that is still anchored off Dresden. In those days, something real top secret was going on there and they would not say much about why they were diving working there, but they did say that they saw real big lakers on the bottom (like 50-60 pounds), and those big hogs were too fat to move around much and were mostly bottom feeding in the cobblestones, digging around with their noses, and feeding off dead baitfish laying on the bottom. That encounter, as best I can remember it (given the beers), always comes to mind when I am on the water and see big marks, deep, on the bottom in the summertime.

As mentioned in the previous post, fishing the bottom with copper was done real slow...the slower the better, and every once in a while we would get something on the wire that was big and real heavy. I never got a real big fish to the boat but on 2 occasions hooked very heavy fish and never got them up where I could see them. One time the wire broke and the other time the hook was straightened out. I don't know how deep I was fishing those times because we just let out wire until we felt the bottom, but I know I had let out lots of wire and was both times fishing a black twin minnow in mid summer, real slow. I am now confident that the black twin minnow was the hot ticket because it represented a slimy sculpin which is one of the primary food sources for Lakers. The twin minnows would wear out after some use because the front lip would grind down, from digging into the bottom.

I knew a fellow back then, named Ken Howard, now long gone, who fished a lot off his cottage near Salt Point. He had a photo that his wife took at his dock of a fish that was too big for him to get in his small boat and he had

more or less towed the fish to his dock and hollered for his wife to get the camera. The photo showed the tail i/3 of a Laker that got off at the moment the photo was shot that the DEC estimated to be over 30 pounds. That is a true story because I saw the photo several times, and Ken never tired of telling the story.

Lake trout get real big in other lakes...why not in Seneca? Maybe we don't fish for them anymore. I confess that I have tried bottom fishing a little in recent years, but have not figured out how to keep the Zebra mussels off the lure. Maybe jigging is the way to explore the possibility of big Lakers. In any case, it is something to think about on a cold winter night.

It sure brings back memories for me on Seneca Lake in the late 50s and early 60s. I eventually got my hands on an Old Town 14 foot boat with a transom for a small motor and a big, high bow. It was lapstraked planked with cedar and fastened together with thousands of tiny brass machine bolts, rather than rivets. It was a great rough water boat, heavy and stable and I never worried about wind and waves at all. I fished copper with two pie plates bolted together on a center spindle and a cranking handle. When we caught a fish we hand lined them in and let the copper pile up in the middle of the boat, and then let it back out carefully. I don't remember any problems with tangles or kinks with the solid wire we used to use. As mentioned, Pflueger #4 with a #5 hook in the spring (no leader) and a black Twin Minnow on a 10 foot leader in the summer, always dragging bottom. Woodard's Hardware in Watkins Glen had a whole area of the store dedicated to this tackle and method of fishing and us kids would save our money all winter to get what we needed for spring fishing. I knew some of the old timers had the Victrola rigs, but they were way beyond the reach of us kids. I know that a lot of Lakers ended up at the back door of the old Jefferson Hotel at night, and local Lake Trout was always featured on the menu (my mother was the #2 chef there for years and years). I quit fishing the lake in the early 70s because the bottom was heavy with a bright green slime and it made no sense to fish the bottom because the lure would instantly be gobbed up as soon as it hit bottom...kinda like the fleas nowadays in some ways. No more slime now...I heard it was an algae bloom from phosphate run off, but don't really know what it was. Copper was a deadly way of catching Lakers and getting skunked was not part of our fishing experience very often. There was 8 or 10 guys who fished all the time on the South end, most memorably "Blacky" Colunio, (he had lost an eye in WW2) and "Piggy" Cherock...maybe some of you remember those guys, Piggy died last year and Blacky, a long time ago. I have learned to fish the Lake differently these days after returning from CA, where I lived for several decades, but it really isn't any more fun than pulling copper in the good old days. All in all, the lake is probably a better fishery now with the Salmon and Browns, but I wonder what it was like a hundred years ago.

Sorry...it was the m260 not m60

http://www.airmartechnology.com/2009/pr ... 3&manf=All

Airmar make most of the transducers for the different brands of fishfinders. I had a M60 shoot through with a furuno 585 and it worked as well as the thru hull setup. The M60 is placed in a small tank glued inside the hull and filled with glyco or mineral oil. A little touchy to install but great results. The surface temp probe has to be outside the hull or the read will be the inside of the hull...maybe a few degrees off but probably close enough. The Airmar folks are real good with tech support.

Thanks Nick...I am going to give it a try in the AM. I do love my new boat...that big V8 trolls down to 2-2.5 no problem and the auto pilot works very well with that big, barn door rudder. She maintains 42# of oil pressure at 600RPM so I don't think I am hurting the engine any, but I do use the kicker a lot as well. And, best of all, when it's time to call it a day, I can get back to the Marina in a hurry.

I never fished leadcore in flea season so maybe it's all good because of the diameter. I did notice that vertical lines (downrigger cables and lines picked up the most fleas). Maybe the angle helps with long lines going back. Sufix is pricey stuff but it is easy to handle compared to leadcore that I have used in the past. It is smaller diameter and has a hard, slick finish that runs out the guides real well.

Those little salmon have big ideas and slam a spoon half their size. It's too bad that some of those hooked and released fish will not live. Maybe it would be better to catch and keep if they are damaged in their gills.

How are you fishing for smallies Nick? I used to do minnows on a slip sinker this time of year in the "old days".

Fished over the weekend and struggled with weeds and fleas. Worked pretty hard all day but caught a lot of small fish. I did discover something that saved the day for my customers, which is a new type of leadcore. http://naturalgeographic.net/wp/sufix-8 ... lead-core/

The fleas do not stick to the 18lb version of this great new product, period. The rigger cables and dipsy wire were gummed up with fleas and flea flicker did no good, but the leadcore was great. I don't know why it stays free of fleas, but it does. A few fleas gathered at the leader knot and were very easy to clean off. It is quite thin for a leadcore and real easy to handle. I like it a whole lot.

The 9.9 Honda long shaft, high thrust pushes my 27 foot Eastern inboard 5-6 MPH, wide open, and trolls real well at 2-2.5 mph. Wished I bought the 15 HP... essentially the same motor with bigger carb. Honda is pricey but a real fine motor. A little cold blooded on start up, maybe.

I was on the S end 3 hours this AM...surface temp 62 and 52 at 60 feet down. Lots of fleas and not much on the screen. Two small browns, both on spoons, one on leadcore (10 colors) and one on downriggers (65 feet down). I will try again in the AM. Need to find some fish. I have 2 charters this weekend, and promised folks from Canada some good fishing in Oct. Seneca can be tough. Lots of water for the fish to swim around in.

My 2 cents based on 50 years of fixing up old boats.

There are so many things to consider that the very best $500 you will ever spend on a used boat is a reputable survey. Even the best survey must make some judgements that may or may not be totally correct, regarding water intrusion and rot in transom, stringers and deck core.

I have a fairly new Eastern 27 inboard and it is cored with "bida core" plastic honeycomb so rot in the transom and hull is a non-event, but the stringers are high quality doug fir and water will get into the wood sooner or later, no matter what. Those stringers will eventually rot. It may take 20 years before the stringer rot situation will compromise motor mounts and hull integrity and by then I will no longer care.

There are some builders who are using composite stringers instead of wood these days, but wooden stringers will rot for sure, and replacement is a half-assed procedure at best and costs big bucks. If the stringers are bad the rot will migrate into the transom at the juncture. The only real sure way of knowing is to drill tiny holes through the glass into the wood and have the shavings checked for rot. Those tiny holes can be sealed up easily if the seller will allow the survey to be that invasive. If it is real bad you will see wet brown shavings and it will smell mildew. You can usually tell the progress of the rot by examining the color of shavings...from dry solid wood (light color) to darker and darker wet samples, all the way to black powder. I have drilled holes where the stringer box meets the hull and have had water and black shavings stream out of the tiny hole...big problem for sure. It is hard to find a used boat without stringer/transom problems.

Aluminum boats are easier to examine and often do not have wooden stringers, but the transom core is always a problem. On an I/O that becomes a structual concern and also a challanging project to fix. An aluminum outboard transom is easier to fix usually, and can be made as good as new.

To sum it up...I have seen some older boats that were repaired (both stringers and transom replaced) to as good as new, but they were done by skilled professionals who had all of the resources to do the work. Those projects usually cost from 8-10K on a 25-30 foot boat. Those repairs will start to rot as soon as some water gets in. I have often wondered why builders do not use pressure treated wood for stringers.

sold today

I had a bad situation with the older Cannon speed-n-temp system (did not work well at all), but did eventually buy the newer Intellitroll setup for my new digitroll downriggers, which gives a readout at the rigger screen. It works perfectly so far, and if it fails I have another brand new probe, if I need it. I will be screwed if both probes eventually fail and will regret the purchase of the new digitrolls, because I bought them to work with the probe. They offered me $550 credit on new stuff, but I am going to keep what I have for now. It is an awesome system, and the cycle up and down capability catches fish for sure...the fish hit often on the up cycle, especially salmon. If you think about it, a wounded baitfish would not be swimming on a level path but going up and down as it struggled along. The new riggers are great...they finally got it right, but the probe history is a big mess for Cannon. I remember pulling copper with two pie plates bolted together and catching lots of big lakers. Progess martches on, I guess.

The trailer is parked at Seneca Marina and Bait Shop on 4th street in Watkins Glen, NY. It is about a block or so from the Walmart store.

Called Humminbird tech support and pressed pretty hard to get some solid info. They admit that some of the first transducers had a problem and were willing to give me another if I sent my old one to them for an examination and it proved to be a bad one. I told them I was in the best part of the fishing season and I needed another option. The tech then talked to his boss, and if I was able to give them the transducer serial #, based on that alone they would send me a new one if the number indicated that I had a bad one. The tranducer is in the water and I will not be able to get at it untill the fall fishing is over anyway, so I will wait to send it in this winter. It was then recommended that I upgrade my 2 year old software, which I did without a problem, and things work better all around, for sure. I had one epoisode with bad bottom read for a few minutes today, but it soon got back to normal...normal is a very fine piece of equipment. It works great, and is probably as good as my Furuno, generally. I have the side scan transducer and when you restore factory defaults it automatically choses "side-scan" which it would not do before I upgraded. That may have been part of my problem. Magically, I now have surface temp available again, which went away soon after initial install. I am in the software development business so I have some understanding of how an upgrade can help. My guess is that they had both a hardware and software problem, and the software upgrade addressed some of the issues, but I may still have a flawed tranducer. I also learned that there is a "high-speed" transducer that connects into the system and is a shoot through the hull version (glued with epoxy inside the hull) that allows looking for fish at speed, which is not very useful with a transom mount due to turbulence. It is less than $100 and I will install one for next season.

To sum it up....some bad tranducers out there for sure and software upgrade is important and very easy to do.

new price...$2200

I have been through the same issues for 2 years with a 1198c...big frustration and $1200 bucks wasted...would like to learn how to upgrade. Very disappointed compared to my Furuno on my last boat. I will switch back this winter because what I have is not much good.

I have tryed quite a few and the Furuno 585 with a tru-hull transducer is the best I have used.

I have been doing well from 90 to 110 down over 250-350 FOW. I did not check temps because I did not need to.

Here is a link:

http://procs.gcfi.org/pdf/gcfi_11-11.pdf

also, google "pro-troll black box" There is a whole free book on this topic on line.

I saw a film some years ago that discussed salmon (in particular) that find food by way of the electrical signal emitted by the bait fish. Salmon have receptors on each side of the length of their body. May be true for trout and other predator fish. It is an interesting topic.

Most boats leak some very small voltage into the water, even if properly grounded. That's why it is important to have a sacrificial zinc under water on your hull, because in a crowded marina, stray voltage makes for galvanic action among different metals and other boats will steal your prop and rudder and other things like fasteners. It is a bigger problem in salt water where the galvanic action is enhanced. Maybe the copper picks it up and sends a little bit of electricity down the wire. Some boats catch more fish (hot boat) and some say those boats are emitting .06 of a volt because that is the right amount for trout and salmon. Some boats are not so good and they may be sending out too much voltage. Cannon makes a big deal about it and my riggers have a digital adjustment to send .06 volts down the rigger wire. I don't know if it's true that the voltage can attract or scare fish. The E-chip is another spin on the voltage thing, and the chip makes it's own tiny voltage. Just for the hell of it, I mounted an E-chip on the sutton #44 that I have been fishing with this week. That spoon is hot and has taken 3x the fish compared to the rest of my spoons. I am a border line convert at this stage and believe there must be something to it and will do more testing and report in on results. Commercial fishing has used electrical discharge for many years as a matter of course.

I did an AM trip today on the South end, 2-8 miles N of Salt PT., both sides. Found Lakers deep (100-120) over 250-350 FOW. Kept 3, all less than 5 lbs., and lost a big fish at the net (maybe 10 lbs.) The Lakers liked a silver and brass Sutton #44 off the downriggers. Found Rainbows and Salmon 60-70 feet over the same water, and those fish liked green and gold spoons off 300 feet of cooper with a short (6 foot) leader. 3 salmon and 3 rainbows, all but one 2-3 lbs. One beautiful Rainbow (maybe 5 lbs.). No fleas and hardly any weeds. Perfect day on the water. It's easier to charge folks when the fish are cooperative...everyone was happy today.

The copper has started to produce for me after going to fairly short leaders. Long leaders, recommended by many pros, did not work for me and I was about to give up on copper and go back to core. I think the copper has a tiny electrical discharge that attracts fish, and the lure needs to be close to the voltage. I don't really know, but it is working real well for me after going to 6 foot leaders.

Now that I am retired, I fish week days a lot. Some days there are no other boats on Seneca that I can see. Today, I saw one other boat pulling copper. The lake is full of fish...they are all over the place, but they do have tails and they move around a lot. Today's hot spot is tomorrow's BS talk. The bottom line I think, is the comment that Nick made...what is this site for if not to share fishing info of all kinds?

Don't worry...lots of fish for every body...we are lucky to live near a truly great fishery.