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King Davy

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Posts posted by King Davy

  1. His family had been on the river since before the revolution. I believe originally from the British isles. You can float through the water just can’t anchor unless you have a pass. There are several river guides who have purchased rights to float and anchor on the DSR. Further more they created a program for guides to reduce the guiding fee on the property to $0 if they came by during the off season to help groom the property for the Fall.


    The more projects they helped with the lower the fee. And one could reduce it to zero. 

    DSR has also invited PHW, CFR and other Veterans groups to fish for free, and we’ve held multi day events on the property that included lodging at no cost. 

  2. That’s the thing about opinions…. Everybody has one. The DSR is an operation. They have lodges, a welcome center, and several full time employees, plus dozens of part time employees. To manage that they have to pay their employees and thus charge a fee to fish.


    I’ve been a pass holder for 10 years. Purely my choice. What do I get? I get to fish without the garbage. I get away from the crowds, I always find a place to swing a fly without a hassle, other anglers are cordial… and I fish to unpressured fish who will choose to crush my streamer. So for me it’s worth the fee. It’s not for everyone and that the beauty. You have a choice pay or not pay and fish any of the upper 9 miles of river.

  3. The DSR isn’t only made up of the Barkley land. They lease property in the 2 1/2 miles from at least three and maybe it’s four other land owners. The other land owners let Barkley manage the property for their lease fee for the same reason any other land owner decided to lock up their property. When it was free range slobs devastated their land. The got tired of picking up garbage measured in metric tons that included large quantities of human waste .


    they could have all posted it and stopped all fishing except for them and their family and friends. Instead they made it a play for pay like so many landowners allow with deer leases. On a deer lease you have no right to be there if you aren’t on the lease. On this spate of river you can choose to pay and fish it or not.


    the migrating salmon and steelhead do just that. They migrate all the way up to the dam. And settle in the up stream reaches to spawn. Yes Late run kings can and do dig Redds in the DSR. That number might be in the 100’s of the 20 to 50k kings that run the river. 

    As far as steelhead. I’ve never seen steelhead setting up redds in the DSR. They are the longest migratory run fish of all the species.


    if you don’t like the show….. change the channel. 

  4. Man you guys can get yourselves worked up. If DEC approaches a land owner and asks if they’d like to sell a slice of property to be used as a PFR it’s their business. 

    They probably aren’t dialing into LOU to ask what you guys think. And the DSR thing ….. my god can we ever beat that horse enough. Like HB2’s excellent example. The fish don’t stay in the DSR. They migrate through just like deer move around. Anglers outside the DSR get a shot at those same fish their license dollars paid for.

  5. Three years ago I was part of a coalition of trib anglers and business owners who benefited from the fall winter and spring river fishing. The NYPA that manages the Erie Canal had been in discussions with Orleans and Monroe county,  DEC, fishing guides and rec anglers on creating base flows through Sandy,  Oak Orchard, Johnson’s and 18 mile creek to induce migrations of trout and salmon.


    So fall of 2020 and 2021 they pulsed water all season until December when they had to finally empty the canal for winter. The results were highly successful in early and sustained migrations of trout and salmon into the streams mentioned above. This past season the angler usage was off the charts.


    But along with high usage comes the need for more PFR’s . We talked about that in 2019 that DEC would have to ramp up buying more easements especially along Sandy and possibly Johnson’s.


    So I just received an email from NYPA stating they and DEC is starting a campaign to search for landowners along these tribs that might want to sell easement rights. HB2 sounds like your closer to the estuary so not probably a play for you. 

  6. Ha ha Lucky I had that argument with DEC last year and brought back up on the zoom call. Irondequoit creek has more access than Sandy. Runs 30 river miles from LO . Has great summer temps for trout and salmon and actually produces wild steelhead and brown trout,  king and coho salmon. 

    Has tons of canopy once out of the estuary that keeps temps in salmonid comfort ranges. Has several natural springs. Sandy runs through agricultural lands wide open fields little canopy , no natural springs, summer temps in the 80’s .


    Landlock salmon grilse and adults are river fish. If they can find a river with suitable habitat they will enter in the spring and all summer long before spawning in late fall.


    the Iron is that kind of river. Not Sandy.

  7. I’m a member of the TU conservation council. We are in the process of working with DEC on several projects from the Adirondacks to the PA border. It encompasses everything from native species such as Brook trout to Landlocks to rivers and streams that currently hosts natural populations of trout. We have an extremely detailed Map of studies and investigations done by DEC on 100’s of watersheds with wild populations. 

    These projects include ground breaking changes that will include things like dam removals where necessary.


    while DEC continues as they have for the last 50+ years  to manage with the MNR the magnificent Lake Ontario sport fishery , there are lots of other fishery programs going on besides LO.


    DEC, USF&W and USGS will always be working on native species. From wild natural opportunities to bolstering better results for stocked programs.


    Hurst led the remaking of the inland tributaries plans the past 24 months for the first time in 30 years. The changes have been remarkable in the result in the early going. 

    landlocks are a struggle everywhere in the US but science and new processes are never ending for the dedicated scientists that are driven to find success.

  8. Gill T No your statements on the Atlantic salmon changes are completely off.


    DSR had nothing to do with any of this. This is a program change directed by Steve Hurst bureau chief of fisheries.


    Landlocks are stocked at the mouth of Oak orchard. The returns to the Oak have been extremely successful ( see Scott Prindle’s trib report). The salmon river stocks have always been done up by the hatchery in hopes that as the fish migrated to the lake they would imprint.


    However the salmon river has not enjoyed the consistency that Oak orchard has so DEC changed the stocking location to the river mouth.

    The pen rearing of Landlocks again a Steve Hurst experiment. As far as volunteers to set up the pens and raise the fish the local trib groups up there has over 30 hands on deck.

  9. Well Gary the changes to stocking sites for salmon was purely made in this time of significant cuts to hopefully hold up the fishery in the next couple years with higher survival of stocked fish. Never had anything to do with sites that got dropped didn’t do a great job of raising fish.

    Just tried to maximize what we had for fish through science, data (that was from universal studies of stocked fish survival to mature status). All understood there would be some pain and dissatisfaction to endure.

    The panelists actually take a lot of responsibility to be the few that hopefully speak for the general fishing stakeholders. I can tell you the charter capts and river guides have the entire fishery in their sights, not just their personal businesses.

    As for the rest of us Rec folks we try our best to provide input that makes the best outcome for the entire fishery which has become absolutely the best 12 month a year fishery in the US for trophy trout and salmon.

    Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

  10. Yeah but the largest user population by far is the average Jane and Joe fisherman. I can tell you Rec anglers and Pro’s don’t always want the same thing.

    And there is very reasonable differences between them that need a common ground. And to have a manageable and productive meeting you can’t end up with 30 or 40 people in the room. Nothing gets done.

    Look at many of the State of the Lake meetings that end in shouting matches etc. this panel is there to get work done.

    The members also belong to the various fishing clubs and charter associations. And have been chosen because hopefully they bring with them sentiments from those groups if management decisions are to be discussed. We do have some in the room that own businesses that support the fishery.

    This has been a much more challenging lake fishing season but then again are we really surprised? Three years of cuts. A draught last year that probably impacted wild production of Salmon in our south shore tribs. Heck in many of the smaller streams that normally get solid runs of brown trout, they never showed up because the fish couldn’t get up them.

    So the browns spawned in the lake an estuaries, and were back in mid May mode out in deeper water not on the shore line in April. Water conditions contributed to that as well. But they are there. Just not where everyone usually looks for them.

    I get a lot of flack for saying this but I’ll say it again. DEC has been managing this fishery for over 50 years. We are the only Great Lake that hasn’t crashed our program ever. Sure we’ve had up and down years like this year but there are some huge magnificent fish to be caught out there and this fall winter and spring in our rivers.

    Tight lines folks.

    Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

  11. Brian of the 12 members, there are a combination of Lake interests both professional and Recreational. Some who work both the lake and the tribs and tributary focused.

    The role for any member is NOT to be supporting one particular watershed, but to be able help DEC with management decisions for the entire lake.

    The lake is broken up into four sections. West, west central, east central and east. And there are some 35 to 40 tributaries on the south shore that one must have knowledge of and be able to speak to in helping firm perspective plans.

    So there isn’t a person on the panel that gets to focus on one stream, or only in the lake section they run their boat on. DEC expects members to be able to offer information and thoughts on the fishery as a whole.

    I think, can’t say for sure that DEC might be entertaining some fresh eyes on this panel. I’ve been a member since about 2002, so I’m ready to move on if you or HB2 want to be considered.

    However to fill my seat you’d have to be a trib rep, and I don’t think that’s where you want to be slotted. But Gary you might.

    I can reach out to the bureau chief and LO section head and provide your names for consideration. With Covid we haven’t met as often. Normally it was about once a quarter. Usually some place central about an hour or so east of Rochester.

    And then there are emails etc that you have to respond to. And some homework to do at times when new proposals are being brought forward. Personally I think they could use some new faces. But this is a group of folks that truly have decades of history of this fishery with tons of experience not only from fishing, but also an understanding of the science, how DEC does and can operate within the confines of New York State and so on.

    You’ll have first hand looks at the future, and you are expected to keep those things within the group until DEC makes them public. So no social media blabber until it’s news that’s been made public etc.

    Let me know… I’m happy to offer you guys up as potential panelists if you are dedicated to putting in the work, and have an open mind of following the process.

    If they come back and are interested in looking at either of you I can message you their contact info and you can reach out.

    Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

  12. I’m not defending them Gary, only giving you my arm chair QB version. The big picture for the over all lake was to try and get the best results from stocking to maintain a viable salmon fishery when they knew this year was going to have the first big painful impact of three years of stocking cuts.

    I and others opposed the Sandy situation. But the Sandy cuts were included with Wilson, all of Sodus, the Sandy creeks out east etc. So plenty of other disgruntled fisherman.

    You can call or write the region 8 manager, the LO section manager and have a discussion. Obviously this year the horse left the barn.

    I assume the next big decision is to get the final bait fish assessment so they can plan on how many eggs to take in Oct. if there is going to be a stocking increase I think we can make a case to get Sandy back on line.

    Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

  13. Brian actually while I agree Domestics played a huge role in filling the gap from salmon to the trout runs on Sandy, they were prolific on the Oak, Irondequoit, Maxwell, salmon creek in pultneyville, and even Mill creek.

    But my point is by losing kings, steelhead and domestics at Sandy… Sandy took the biggest hit of all of the stocking restructuring.

    Sandy has become a true destination brown trout fishery, it will get even more browns but losing these other fish while I’m sure stragglers will show up will change the face of that stream. And certainly the open water near shore fishery in the fall.

    But losing domestics is going to impact several watersheds.

    Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

  14. Don’t have the exact number handy but I believe they stocked 70k domestic bows, and would replace that number with brown trout.

    I think the one brown trout limit on the tribs is going to start to pay dividends to the lake fishery in the next few years as well.

    Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

  15. Well HB2 the domestic rainbow program is over. They shut down that stocking in favor of raising more browns. So most locations are getting more browns.

    We placed 4th in the summer LOC in the brown trout division. And we put our time in fishing for browns and our experience was plenty of yearling browns, mixed in with the big fish we caught. The little brownies were as wide as they were long. All out of Braddocks. The one charter Capt I know out of Braddocks has been clobbering the browns when the temps are tight.

    Our weather and water temp structure has been all over the map this year. I believe that’s our biggest culprit.

    DEC are science guys but they do have bosses in Albany. So it would be foolish not to think there is pressure to find high economic return.

    Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

  16. HB2 your a business man , I was for 43 years it’s always going to come down to $$$ as part of the decision. My post was what I figured played in, not what was told to us.

    The fishing on the lake reminds me of that 97/99 fishing. Running all over the place to put a good day together. Back then we turned to steelhead, browns and lakers to get rods moving because with stocking reductions salmon fishing was tough.

    But we caught them as well .

    Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

  17. The science of survival was a culmination of stocked fisheries in general not just LO. And HB2 while it wasn’t admitted to us on the panel, I’m sure decisions are focused on greatest bang for your buck. Although Sandy during the trib season sees anglers from as far away as Oregon, Montana, and Colorado, and a flush of folks from PA, Ohio, and Jersey, there isn’t the infrastructure on and around Sandy to support a large group of anglers that are towing boats and needing lodging close buy or spots for bigger boats with water and power etc.

    It’s the biggest little port on the lake success fishing wise but it can’t handle large groups of people who want to stay by their boats.

    Trib wise these guys already drove many hours to get here. So the 15 minute ride from Hamlin to Greece where there are 100’s of rooms, and places to eat is no big deal. They aren’t lugging boats and trailers

    We should all know by now that these management programs are never going to make 100 percent happy. Hang in there folks. I’m sure things will change again. Hopefully to get Dandy back on board.

    Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

  18. Brian Sandy got the triple slam this year. No more kings, steelhead, and the exit of the domestic rainbow as a LO fish. They got an increase in Browns. I fought like crazy to not end the rainbows to no avail.

    My personal opinion and we’ll see, if bait fish have rebounded and from my time on the lake this year it seems so, like they did after the 1993 cut and build back up in early 2000 they’ll have an opportunity to increase stocking and hopefully put Sandy back on the schedule.

    Those of us that fish the tribs know Sandy has a huge following from all over the country and is a very busy port to fish the lake. It deserves to be considered a major asset port to the entire year round fishery

    Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

  19. One last comment. I know one of the creel agents you spoke to. Known him since he was born. His dad and I taught him to fly fish and work the back of a trolling rig since he was seven. There isn’t a program that kid hasn’t mastered from fly and float fishing to rigger and junk rods.

    I also know how hard he’s worked to get his Fisheries Batchelor of Science degree. He’s worked as a steward for DEC USGS, and others the last four years. So while as a young Jedi he may not be as articulate as an older DEC tech he eats and sleeps this fishery. So let’s all hoist these kids up who paid some huge dues to get where they are.

    Finally they are there to collect data. The data that drives the decisions made by your regional managers. Charter and rec anglers need to spend the time providing the data. Especially our Capt’s. They realize most of you guys clean fish on the lake, but you can still (and I know many do) provide info on where your clients are from how many and what species were caught. While cleaning fish if you note a size length/ weight of the fish and maybe scrape a couple scales and put them in a plastic bag even more help.

    Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

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  20. As far as the fishery being compared to the early 2000’s. It’s had its ups and downs for sure. Steelhead in 2014 died off in maybe 70 percent of the adult population not from whirling, but rather a vitamin B deficiency from eating emaciated alewives that’s were in poor health out on the lake. So it was easily four years before we had any rebound of decent trib steelhead fishing. And truthfully as one who spends over 100 days a season fishing for them can I say that the 20/21 season looked to be the first more normal fishery.

    In 2017 to 2019 the lake fishery for K ing salmon on the lake in my opinion was nothing short of spectacular because we were not feeling the cuts until last year and much heavier this year. We have what I’ve experienced as bigger fish on average but not as successful numbers wise.

    This fishery as all do go through cycles. So the only thing to do……. Just keep fishing.

    Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

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