mrhappy

This is a good survery and covers many qustions regarding the possible reasons for the decrease in the DEER nubers in MANY DMU's throughout NYS. All hunters should take the time to fill it out and voice thier opinions!

Finally!!!!!!! Absolut & Fishjunkie THANKS SO MUCH GUY'S!!!!!I did not want to bring the PA situation into this topic as I am not well versed in that debacle, however, many of my whitetail enthustast friends in the Keystone State are refering to their "infamous" whitetail biologist as Dr. Kevorkian!!!!! Frankly (BOY HERE IS ANOTHER CAN OF WORMS) I and many others feel the antler restrictions are a joke ! It seems to us that the trend is reversing here. The inferior bucks (spikes) are being protected and the bucks needed for the so called QDM are being blasted!!!! What is the average age of the buck typically harvested in NY & PA?????? 1.5 YRS OLD!!!!!! WHY on earth IF we want QDM are we encouraging hunters to kill the quality Young bucks (1.5 yr old 6 qnd 8'pts.)???? Once again I have to bring a few Midwestern states into the equasion, go shoot a button buck or a 1.5 year-old buck there and see what gets said!!!!! I have to believe what I am SEEING is true in both NY & PA regarding the average size of Bucks harvested and it is definetly showing a decline in average antler size! SOOOOO.... As much as I LOVE the direction of this thread is going I still have to say IS IT REALLY THOSE YOTES KILLING THOUSANDS OF DEER ANNUALLY OR ONCE AGAIN SHULD WE BE ASKING THAT INFAMOUS QUESTION??????????? Here is another can of worms (gawd why do I do this) if the states continue to insist on handing out these DMP's like candy canes how about they consider that if you shoot a deer and it has testicles(no matter how big button buck - trophy) you MUST put your buck tag on it. At leat this would decrease the senseless harvesting of potential QUALITY deer. I want to again remind you that I am in favor of QDM as much as I am of QDH(Quality Deer Hunt). The time is NOW guy's that we start to wright this ship, if not, more and more will be eating tag soup and making excuses. SOOOO... not to be pompous but if anyone is interested in sharing that bridge with me there is still some room for the guy's who enjoy seeing deer on a daily basis (because they selectivly harvest their bucks and does)and regularly harvest 120 - 140 plus inch 3.5 year olds on a yearly basis!!!! GOOD HUNTING!!!!

Poverty Stricken - Let me make it clear that I am not disagreeing with you that the Yote population is at a all time high and that they do HAVE large impact on our Wild Turkey population. I have seen that first hand with my OWN two eyes. I hunt YOTES frequently during the winter months and one of my best techniques is Turkey decoys and calls. HOWEVER.....you kind of are reinforcing what I am saying in that you don't know what is going on with the surrouinding parcels of land. Perhaps those surrounding parcels are being hunted and perhaps a number of the deer being harvested are does??? If this is the case then there is no way that the "herd" as you indicated could bounce back quickly and signifficantly. Frankly up until two years ago the State was handing out DMP's in record numbers, it wasn't until last year did they actually decrease the DMP distribution dramatically. In my experiences in hunting and observing Yotes the past few years they infrequently kill deer, it seems to me as though the are a pretty lazy animal and would much rather attempt to kill a Turkey, Rabbit, Pheasant, Cat and more than likely and most frequently a Mouse! Again, I stress that these smaller animals and many others for that matter are very hinderd by the Yote population!!! In my observations with my own eyes (not mystery pictures/stories) of Yotes running deer down and killing them is that they are going to choose the parth of least resistance and energy in regrds to what they will be eating or serving to their young. I will agree that Yotes will capitialize on dead deer and eat off them until its is completely gone as well as possibly dragging them to a more comfortable area for them. I have also witnessed Yotes travel miles to deer carcass for their evening snacks. Perhaps the habitat in woods and fields around the area you hunt have changed? Lack of mast crops, farming etc...are good reason why the deer may have also disappeared. SO.... When we people start blaming the "herd" decline on YOTES I am always going to yell out BULL&*%%!!!!!!! Stop shooting the does on your property and convince the folks around you to also and you will see your "herd"increase right before your eyes!!!!! In the meantime I will keep buying those bridges and selectively and conservatively harvest does on my leases!

Poverty Stricken - Think about it....100 acres is really NOT alot of land! How many resident deer do you think are on that piece on average per season. If you Kill lets say 5 does that you are aware of and lets be realistic here(unless you patrol the property and convict the Trespassers) there is going to be a few more deer taken than you think. Now lets factor into the equasion that IF you have appropriate seasonal food and bedding there is a good chance that the 10 does killed may have produced 20-30 offspring the following spring, thats a significant number! Again I am not against folks harvesting "some" doe's but we need to slow things down here and the NP's have a HUGH impact on deer numbers. Ray.... I am interested in that bridge for sale and until we as hunters can see the evidence of MAJOR Coyote kills I will always be in the market for that bridge. Please I am more than interested in seeing those photos of coyotes dragging deer into the den! I am an avid whitetail hunter mostly bow and spend an insane amount of time ALL year scouting and hunting. However, I am not going to get into who spends how much time in the woods or for how long but I am going to say we as hunters need to take a look at whats happening here. The reality is that there aren't too many guy's that are fortunate enough to hunt everyday and pass buck after buck up waiting for the 3.5 year- old you know you will kill! To the average hunter this is a problem and it's not the DOGS making those deer dissapear.

Fishman - to the best of my knowledge you are correct. It is supposed to be a certain amount of NP's per acre, however, in my experiences with these things it doesn't seem to be very regulated at all. Like I said in one of my last posts the lease I had was 390 acres and the farmer was given 25 of them, I know this for a fact as I was given 5 by the farmer to use if I so desired. Another thing that is of concern is this farmer did not have to prove any type of damage at all to his property, actually Region 9 staff approached him regarding using them on his property. The lack of deer sightings trend (for many) did not start with the introduction of coyotes it started when most hunters began walking the woods with at least 2 DMP's in hand. The DMP distribution in many DMU's is very lobsided. There is one DMU that I am familiar with in particular located in south central NYS where you can't get a second permit but it's not uncommon to see 30-40 does in one morning sitting in the same tree..... and you will see or hear that dreaded coyote almost daily as well.

Diversion - I would like to hear what else is involved in this situation, good bad or neutral. Lets face it...there is a problem and who better to figure it out but the guys in the woods!!!!!! A little discussion can't hurt!

Gentelman - I cannot factually speak in regards to the number of DMP' s issued in specific DMU's, however, I can say that the DEC does give these out as one reply to this thread indicated like "Christmas candy". On one specific farm I had regularly hunted in Southwestern Catt. county, 390 acres, much of which was golden rod and overgrown apple orcards was issued in two consecutive years 25 "nusiance permits". The DEC approached this particular farmer and offered these to him (it should be noted the only farming this guy did was raise cattle, nothing more!) He also did not complain about property damage! He and his family had two years of killing, needless to say I warned him and to this day he regrets wrecking his deer population. After the third year I opted out of my lease as I watched the population get decemated. In my experiences with nuciance permits it seems as though each Regional DEC office has a quota to fill regarding distribution in addition to DMP's. So once again...is it coyotes winter kill or should sportsmen be beginning to ask some questions?????

W.W.IV - I will agree with you that road kill has some impact on the population statewide, significantly in some areas. However, I am not sold on the winter kill philosophy! I do agree that there are deer that do not survive the winters(mostly button bucks) in my observations, but many will agree the numbers are not significant. We probably should discount the winter kill anyways as we have not seen a extreme winter here in NYS in a few years aside from the North Eastern portions. Again I will refer to other states in the midwest where they do see major winter snow and ice storms and take a look at their populations. A perfect state to use as an example with winter kill is Wisconson, the winters are EXTREME there and look at the average size of the deer they harvest(buck or doe)! I have to say I am not against any of us going out and harvesting a doe for the freezer but we should take a look at the REAL picture, not the fabricated one we have shoved down our throats by the DEC every year. My feelings on this subject are not popular with many folks but obviously (based on reports from HUNTERS) I think it's time we start taking a serious look at the direction our deer herd is heading in the last few years. Some of us are blessed with great properties to hunt(have permission, own or leased) with a healthy deer population but I would go out on a limb to say the majority of hunters are frustrated or at least displeased with the outcome of their last few seasons! I want to remind everyone of the subject of the orginal thread here and it appears to me that many feel it's the Coyotes killing our deer! C'mon Guy's!

Come on guy's...Lets stop and think here. Could the lack of deer sightings have anything to do with the DOE SLAUGHTER we have had going here in NYS for the past few years? Wake up...it's not the coyotes!!!!!! It's not disease!!!! The deer out west in Illinois, Kansas, Iowa, all deal with Coyotes and disease and the population is large and so are the bucks. Look at Montana and Texas, lots of Whitetail and along with Yotes they are dealing with other predators. Still a VERY large healty herd! We are killing our factorys, we need does to make deer! As for the "nusciance permits" and all the "crop damage ", simple solution, if you own property and obtain these permits you MUST open your property to public access...with permission of course. 2 yrs...300 acres... 50 "nusciance permits".... equals problem solved! Lets see then how many landowners request these permits. Here is another can of worms to open! How many deer are killed (DMP deer especially) that are going to donations (not that I am against Hunters for the Hungry) just because you have an extra tag of your own AND the one your buddie signed over to you? All with A FREEZER full of deer!!!!! Just to clarify, I am an avid Whitetail hunter and have hunted and harvested them in many of the states that I listed. I have observed how these states are doing it and NYS is doing it wrong!! Many complain that there aren't as many hunters, young and old, as there used to be....Hmmmmmm, wonder why? What 14 -16 year old is going to sit for 2,3,4,5, days to see A deer? As much as I am in favor of APPROPRIATE and REALISTIC QDM (quality deer management) I am also in favor of QDH (quality deer hunt), especially for our youngsters!!!!! Face it.... MANY DMU's in New York are becoming a "Fished Out Pond"! We need to wake up!!!!!

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