King Davy

Yeah walleye I've spent a lot of time in Alaska and on the kenai. A world class fishery but the king salmon returns have been in trouble for several years. In Alaska AF&G will shut down the fishing on a minute if they suspect a problem with the salmon returns.

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Yup Agree Gambler.....the line up of all the cold water sport fish still requires stocking help. They even stock Kings in Alaska. Unfortunately...cause they have to now.

PAP's post just triggered one other thought. The 2012 and 2013 open water fishing and trib returns (especially the trib returns) were lights out. That means this years mature adult class were the juvies (assuming we see more kings mature to spawning stages as three year olds). So this is the 2010 (4's) to 2011 (3's) year class that we had water and eye up problems with for sure....but also....were these young fish predated on, and or more important out competed for food?  Triggering poorer servival rates?

I mean no disrespect I just want to say.....and I don't get this.....what posture has DEC given the fishing community that makes you think they have an agenda to kill the most popular in land fishery in the world? BTW Atlantic Salmon fry are treated so that thiamine is no longer and issue. Many studies have been done to show that winter kings continue to feed and yet also winter in very deep depths of 200 to 300 feet. However core temps  in all the great lakes were cold for longer, and normally fish in those states don't feed as well or as often. So I would think this past winter they didn't have the feed bags on as they normally did, but for gosh sakes we just experienced the longest time period of cold weather once again in over 100 years.  

I'm sure somebody is going to put up the long list of underhanded things the DEC has done to end this fishery...one that has record succcess for the past decade, and over all the most popular successful fishery of all the great lakes. The DEC to Vince's point from 1992 decided to manage the foarge and not the predators. I don't disagree that they may have pushed the panic button a little too soon, but I think the very last  thing they want to do is end the life of the food web.

So I'll weigh in and to try and keep this on track, I'll just go down each of Vince's detailed points and give my honest opinion also from my 42 years of experience fishing this lake and all the others. Very sorry but this is going to be wordy.

1) Started with Native species - There is a connection to the States in which the Lakes are in, as well as the Federal Gov't on management guidelines. I don't believe that these guidelines can't be "amended", but I think the Stakeholders will have to meet them somewhere on the fact that We should study, experiment and have programs for Native species. It's important to the legacy of sportfishing to never forget your past, and the original history of these the greatest fresh water bodies on earth. Of the two main natives species for LO, Lake Trout have the best chance to regain a natural stable existance. In talking to the USGS crew three weeks ago they were very encouraged by the number of wild lake trout they are getting in their Lake Trout trawls on the West end. Better numbers then ever before. Meaning the natural habitat is supporting wild repo. Most likely results like this are going to push this progran forward.

Atl Salmon continues to be a long shot. I can't comment on OMNR, my biologist friends that worked on that moved to Thunder Bay and are working on other things, so no longer tied into that program, with enough knowledge to respectufully comment. But for the US side, our USGS study is still around finding a strain that may prosper. No impact on NYS funds for the LO program, and the few A salmon raised by NYS up in the ADK is not an operation that would be easily condusive to raise other species. We have enjoyed, (though limited) success with fish returning to the salmon river. And they now for the first time in 150 years are finding wild salmon. I'm no longer a professional fisherman, so having to find lots of fish and limits of fish are not a consideration. AND...those that fish for Atlantic Salmon are also not focused on tons of fish , but for sure fishable populations. We aren't there yet. But there is still a possibility for this to happen. It's not gone backwards and there continues to be baby steps forward rather then backward. This program appears to me, to have the least amount of impact on the open water fishery, except the position of the OMNR and other Canadian interests. Which no matter how much screaming the NYS anglers make....probably isn't going to drive management practices in Canada.

In the 46 years the current program has been in place, I think over all from where I sit, native Species study in the big picture has been able to live with the sport fishing program, so I would say these is no reason for it not to continue. And remember these progarms started back in the 1950's before the stocking started....mainly to address "invassive species" e.g the lamprey eel.

(1-a) Vince I'm taking eye up issues out of the first paragraph in your Essay. Water temp ...especially water temp is just not an easy thing to handle. In the past four years we had The hottest summer in over 100 years, and another I think in the top 10. With lower then average rainfall. No matter how and who manages the fishery .....Mother Nature can't be controlled, and thus neither can the temps of the river waters....ESPECIALLY in a tail water fishery where the draw isn't deep enough out of the rez to pump cold water. You wouldn't believe the proposals that have been made to the Power company at the Oak and Salmon river and also Oswego....on reconstruction of the rez's/lakes to get colder water in the system. It's 10's of millions of dollars, and who is going to pony that up?.....NOBODY.  Vince to your point the Htachery has struggled with water supplies over the years. In talking to Andy this spring, they were digging another deeper well, and they put some gear in place to increase the water flows from the wells to get better water pressure thus some better oxegen in the hatchery. I honestly can't comment if they finished that investment project, and how well it's working if it's done, but we can find out. The point here is DEC isn't sitting on their hands for good water at the hatchery, but any and all Capital improvements to any DEC facility has to have  approved funding. And we all know how broke NYS is. BUT to Vince's point can there be funds collected by stakeholders and provided legally for them to pursue capital projects? Need to talk to the poltical faction to find out how it can be done legally. You can imagine the red tape to do these things. Years ago The Lake Ontario Steelhead Assoc. decided to give gas cards to DEC to pay for gas for them to drive the lake in the fall winter and spring to do creel studies on the entire trib watershed. We had a b1tch of a time doing that.  BUT The water supply even from the wells is from the same aquifer as the river,

Eye Up Eggs. Salmon run when they run. Yesterday I know of a couple people who caught a limit of Kings in the Salmon river. Fish were already very dark. Also talked to a guy who got a nice box of kings off the salmon in LO river where the eggs were still very immature. As much as DEC strives to collect good healthy eggs from good healthy fish, the Fish metabolism isn't controlable. they are going to be in many different stages. Last two years there were fish in the ladder at Altmar in Mid August. Last year was a hot summer. Once these salmon go in there, they aren't turning around to swim back out. Those very early fish probably either perished and floated out before Oct. or if collected were probably eggs not usable. But the DEC ended up getting way more then their quota of good eggs. And how many times other then a couple years ago, was their a serious shortage in the last 40 + years. The DEC knows how and at what temps to collect eggs. They've been doing it a very long time. Will there be some years the situations become dire sure. So what else can be done. If would have to be approved by DEC, and just as the partnership for the pens was launched by Bob Songin, maybe Stakeholder weirs needs to be explored again. but once you make that commitment and get  an agreement to do that....you the angler has to staff it every day and it's a lot of man power. DEC does NOT have the resourses to set up weirs around other rivers. That's not an option. And I'm sure there would be lots of push back as has in the past to this effort, but put it back on the table. So places like the Oak that truly doesn't get a run of salmon until Oct. maybe you get those late fish. If you have ever visited the Altmar Hatchery in Oct at egg taking time, you will realize that  the raceways and Beaver Dam brook is jam packed with fish. It;s not like you can push an early arriver out of the way to get to the back of the line. If the eggs look bad they discard them right away. They take over a million extra for those eggs to compensate those don't eye up correctly.

2) Add 30% more King Salmon. The other side of the story on this...is ...if we did have a down year class for probably more then just one reason, there is report after report of tons of younger kings being caught. Just like the bait fish studies we sit and look at every year. There may be a down or missing year class, which usually opens the door for a younger year class to prosper. Of course we can't control bait fish flux. But it's the natural nature of how the environment works. OK but maybe there is an imbalance. If a year class of predators have dropped out it makes sense there could be less harvest of prey species. But if the classes behind them are robust, they willl naturally bring the prey back in balance. Yes there was die offs this spring of bait, and even since the beaches were cleared up 35 years ago..there was always spawning and winter stress die offs. some years much more then others. Yet we still don't have the shore line littered with dead bait fish.  Still you could make a case for adding more salmon. But the data has to point to a significant gap. (And before you discredit the data) hear me out. The new USGS boat has the most modern research deep water technology of any in the great lakes. This is their second year at sea. I know people are seeing lots of bait, so let's see what they found. USGS and DEC can not make a knee jerk management decision on if a year class is lost. They can't because they can't see the other salmon in the lake that don't show up this fall to determine if all are over or under fed. The only data they can put into their management model is what comes home. So let's say the spawners are on the long term, avg. in size....and especially on the avg of say the last five years. There isn't going to be a compelling story to toss another 510K (30%) kings in, along with the wild population which they don't have a handle on from all the wild stocks out of the river, let alone rest of the tribs. So (1) bad year does not a story make. BUT let's say they are willing to add some more just to experiment. We might not get 30%, but they might be able to increasae some. Adding extra fish in one year isn't going to crash the lake. However they'd have to have...and you'd want them to have a series of years data that suggests this wasn't a short term problem.

Here's the thing, they can't and won't make an irresponsible decision that would possibly crash this lake, because ...unfortunately it's not all about the fishery when talking about the lakes equilibrium. The program got started in the first place because cities, and towns, and private citizens complained about the baitfish washing up on shore. Politicians were under the gun to do somehtign about it, and turned to the DEC's and NRC's of the great lakes. And they figured it out, and we all know that Bill Pearce didn't know he was starting a booming sport fishery when he dumped the first bucket of Cohos in. There would be plenty of push back if we had a dead lake again. Still my positiion and it's only worth (1) vote, is to put the amount of fish in that matches the carrying capacity of the lake. Last few years other then the weather related problem from a couple years ago, we've had historical fishing. You've all said so on these very pages ....Logically one bad season...(and it's the second half of the season, cause the first half numbers didn't show this was going to happen)....year doesn't clear the way for any radical change. I know you don't want to suffer another bad july through august, but if it's falls over. Figure 5 to 10 years of learning to play golf.

3)  Summer water releases. The Yakers .....have just as much right to use our water ways for sport as we do for fishing. Pulse of water four times a summer especially in June and July has no baring on pacific salmon migration. You are talking a 350 and 750 cfs while kings are off shore and not very many in the east end. This year the river was up over 4K at twice....and over 1500 CFS several times simply because of the weather. Power Company can't allow water to run over the dam folks.....that would create a catastrophy. August release? Still at under 1000 until Sept 1. Those early June and July flows bring in our Atlantic Salmon and Skamania steelehad. And also big browns. And the river has a healthy population of anglers using it. They also have a right to fish and expect some fish to be present.  Without the base flows, there would be NO natural acquatic life in this river, and the health and well being of the environment that spawns as many as 5 to 10 million wild kings would be in serious trouble. They used to shut this thing down during the week. Inscect life that is crutial to all living creatures in this watershed were impacted. So yes there is a fantastic small mouth bass fishery there....lots of bait fish species and bugs for YOY fish to eat and survive on. There will always be warm water species in play in all our rivers...and has been since the dawn of time...yet we still have a very viable cold water sport fishery. Again since 1998 when the treaty went in place for base flows...is also some of the greatest results in catch rates we've ever had in the history of the fishery. Vince again just my opinion a "serious" one time eye up egg problem in the last 15 years, isn't time to roll the dice. DEC has had eye up egg issues certain years....many that we didn't even know about. What brought the 2011 to life was the inability for fish especially females to get the the hatchery.

(4) Higher % of fish should be penned. I don't disagree with this...except to play devils advocate. The open water community screams for DEC to not put all their eggs in one basket. And I get that....wish there was another healthy place to raise these fish...without impacting other programs. The in-land fisheries which is gigantic folks....depends on Caledonia and displacing those fish and especially that brood stock isn't the answer. Plus the Virus risks. But I think the DEC can't allow all the fish in the pens even if you all accept the risk if there was a catastrophy like what happened at Sandy back in the 90's. I was there and I realize it was a bad decision that day to load them in...but also would could have happened is four days after the water temps were good...we got weather that rose the temps to leathel stage and the crew couldn't get them out fast enough....and ALL...not some but ALL are gone. But again....good suggestion to make to DEC...as long as nobody is going to cry about a total kill if there was a mishap. .

(4-a) Size of the YOY fish is truly a product of the conditions in the hatchery. Some years weaher conditions and snow melt and water temps grow them slower....holding them longer ....to a point they will smolt in the tank before you can get them to the pens. So I agree size matters, but if you want the size on these tough condition years, then be Ok with fish that smolted in the hatchery and most likely your pen holding is just a baby sitting job.

I'm going to make one more point about Pens. I used to volunteer and I've helped at Sandy, the Oak, and the Genny. I don't today because I live an hour or more away from these places....I'm NOT pointing any fingers....so let's not get crazy. This spring I was out and about and did visit a pen site. The pens were filthy...most likly from a rain event that rose the water and pushed a ton of silt and dirt into the pens, but that is life ending for these tiny fish.  The feeding log was not up to date and the bags in the bin had dates and times for feeding that hadn't been completed. so I fed them. They hadn't been fed in over a day. And when the fish came up to eat, they didn't look good. I believe in the Pen programs. Cheers to Bob for getting this started and running all these years. but it seems all the pen programs struggle these days to get feed and cleaning volunteers. I have no idea what was the situation that caused the pens to be filthy and not kept clean, and the fish not fed for over a day. Probably was only a freak one time thing, hopefully but if you are going to take responsibility for the product...then you have to have the dedicated resources. And you can't have pen site leads begging for help. And that means if oyu have a high water flood tyope event...everybody is dropping what they are doing and running to save the fish. Watch the USGS charts for water flows and temps. You can see a five degree spike in less then 10 hours of a warm spring storm, where that temp pushes the pen fish to the brink.

Vince the rest of your points for me are spot on. Care of the fish you handle. I watch boat anglers on video's and countless trib anglers mishandle fish. There are many inexperienced anglers in our environment. All I'd say is ...for me I'd assume you just are inexperienced. So If I approach you on a stream....and say...hey ...can I show you and easier or better way to handle that fish don't be offended.. There was a time I had to learn as well. If you don't intend to harvest a fish, don't take him out of the water. easy to do on a trib, not on a boat. But you can have a release chamber that is simply a fish cooler with controlled water in in, by having a simple stream thermometer and some ice to add keep the temps viable for their release. Don't hold a fish vertical. Displaces it's internal organs and a decent chance he won't survive. Keep hand out of the gills no matter what...

Unless injured, if  you want good returns of mature fish, don't harvest the young...skippers to two year olds. ..unles you  intend to eat them.

Lastly...(I know you thought this would never end...either did I.). There is a Vast community of other types of anglers. Yes the effort is far greater on the tribs then the lake. But that's not my point. We should be respectful for all the Salmonid species, open water and trib fisheries, and understand that Your game or my game isn't the only game in town. We can all play in this together, and for the most part we have. I'm a catch and release guy number one reason...I don't care for these fish as table fare. so why kill a fish somebody else might enjoy. If i release a trout after catching it...I or somebody's kid has a chance to catch it again.  But I respect and would fight for the right to maintain our herritage to have the choice to harvest fish and game to the letter of the law.

Thanks for reading, discussion, ideas and thoughts are instrumental to make solid positive successful adjustments. What Vince has done is to take a position. That's how you start a negotiation, Then you have to field all the relative data. and have to be open to comprimise to make gains in your position.

Scott I'm past gray hair to NO hair.....and have entered the age of the 4 Pm Sr citizen Dinner specials. You got aways to go yet. Your buddy Gratson says hi BTW.

Well their's that Gambler.....

Gonna get Yankee Rick off the kiddy ride float fishing gear, and put the 13 foot two hander in his mitts....teach him the ZEN of the "Swing" ...or in his case SCHWING!!!. Stop playing with bobbers...and learn how to present the feathers so a "Playa" who'll rip your rotator cuff to shreads on the grab.

God forbid if I ever got him to get the ultimate PULL from the almighty Salar....he'd be blabbering.....stuff like...Boat For sale....rods...riggers...electronics dirt cheap.....ahhh...ohh...ahh...

Ok boyz.....another thread trashed all to he!! by a bunch of guys who like to wade around rivers and fish in rubber pants. Time to tie some Chinny flies...JUST in case any show up....ever.

Scott must be a fly fisherman...(you know Rick....one of those BAD guys) .looking forward to standing in a river waving a stick.

Ha Ha Rick...I don't care if there are more Kings,,,,,put them in...if it crashes the fishery so be it. BUT, a deal goes both ways. More Kings "sure" ...1 steelehad limit everywhere including the lake  25 inch and above limit on those fish. It's a proven fact ..Data That DEC has captured at Altmar since the 80's that fish under 22 inches are not spawners. Meanign trib guys have never had a shot at those fish. Let them get to 25 inches and the data shows they've been in a river at least once. and therefore both lake and tribs anglers had a chance to fish to them.

The Lake Trout are in Federal hatcherys, so are Atlantics.(At Tunison) Cornell University..except the NYS hatchery in the ADK. There they keep a Brood stock of fish in a lake to spawn each year. Never has been and never would be any impact on the other species. You boys have to take that up with the very Powerful Great lakes Fishery Commission. Tick them off enough and they'll see that nothing BUT lake trout, Coaster Brookies, and Atlantic Salmon are in these lakes.

Rick I responded to your note in an email I guess. Banning fly rods is like banning guns. Gun's don't kill people, people do. Fly rods don't gig fish, the unethical, or unskilled anglers with the tools in their hands do. Let's stop blaming a fishing tool on problems. Educate those who simply don't know, and we should all be banding together to turn in the bandits that rape our fishery. I've had people arrested by CO's on tribs many times...and will continue to do so. Now that i've got a Go Pro strapped to my body most times...I'll even show up in court with the evidence. Let's be solutions to problems.

RICK...AMEN brother...on getting trib and lake guys together. We have a robust, yet delicate, yet ever changing environment, some times with problems and issues. This watershed is used 12 months a year...never gets a rest. It should be managed as a 12 month a year fishery by stakeholders as it is by DEC and USGS. Neither of those entities look at this environemnt as a lake or trib fishery only.

Why are we doing that????? Let's get off the computers, and go grab a beer together and discuss our interestes, issues, and hope for the future live and in person. There are (IMHO) to many splintered special interest groups. Imagine if we all were one.

And Rick....come on man....you know I respect the heck out of the fact that you are a true salmon hunter, but get off the snagging song....especially for steelhead. We all realize we'll never get rid of the skullduggerers ...but the majority of Steelheaders out there are the reason you guys have a lot of those 3 and 4 year old fish to catch...cause we don't kill them. Release rates are in the 95% and better range for trib guys.

You should realize those 10 + pound fish have way more then likely been caught numerious times before you boxed them by both lake and trib anglers. And remember....for at least four months....and many time five months ...those fish are the only targets we have in our trib systems...so just like Salmon are important to you and many others...those silver bullets are important to the trib community

That's the funny thing about the Internet...or maybe the Sad thing....guys like Tall Tails taking a shot at me...you don't even know me. Not now, nor have I ever been a member of TU...and I have many reasons for that....biggest being trying to get them to be involved in the LO tribs when we had LOSA. They have lots of resources and money to help this environment...not just inland.

Anyway....I only speak from experience which is only worth (1) data point, and look at the collected data that has been available ...for 30 years. Some on here will chime in that the numbers are wrong etc. But Lake Ontario has been the biggest baddest top notch open water and trib fishery over any other of it's kind for those 30 years compared to all others. Consistant and most of it (consistant in it's excellence of fishing success) has been it's moniker. So the data that the DEC and Feds use to manage this thing must be good enough to continue it's excellence. Maybe not perfect...but adequate.

Most of the posts on here have lots of Merritt simply because it's got people thinking about ...what's going on. That's a good thing because stakeholders are at the heart of it's future. Many offering ideas, insight, and relating their experience. Interesting thing is the full gamut...some are mostly catching wild fish, some only stocked fish....In the end it's good to put all these diverse experiences on the tabel....just to understand how unpredictable this environment is and then understand how hard it is to manage it.

On the thoughts around taking eggs later. The hatchery won't take eggs until the river water is in that optimal temp. Some years that hasn't happened until after Columbus day. Nov? ....not too many healthy fish around in Nov. I would never want to risk waiting too long.

Gill I respectively disagree. Clipping fish has been going on since Seth Green's fish culturing days. It in it's purest form and most of all affordable format is still a Globally accepted practice to try and understand year classes, stocking sites (pens etc) to measure returns, and in the latest case I think it's important to try and figure out what the impact is of wild salmon mixing in with the stocked numbers.

This June during a womens fly fishing two day seminar, we guided two USGS biologists, Among a combination of rainbows, brown trout these young ladies, were catching Atlantic Salmon mostly 1.5 to 2 year olds (which are still only 8 to 12 inch fish), and there was a combination of clipped and wire tagged fish. The differece was DEC ADK hatchery fish, Tunison USGS fish, and "Wild Fish" obvisouly no clips no tags....I was interesting these two young scientists when upon catching a fish spent time deciphering origins,  and conditions of each and every one. Their thurst for knowledge of "their babies" was eye opening. We have a bunch of young highly intelligent scientists working on this fishery. I'm all for getting them as much data as possible.  

Ohhh....Cheap shot Gill.... thought you were a science guy (I'm sure you were just kidding). They are capturing a handful of fish to experiment with. It's a specific device to capture and not harm those fish so they can truck them back to Cornell.

The raceway is wide open for all the kings in the world to swim up to the gate. ....Let's focus on what happens this fall. No hiding spawning King Salmon...if they are there...or not. I'm always asking why...there are many very famous in land trib systems in the NE that for what ever reason are fishing WAY below their normal stature. Insect hatches were late, or didn't come at all. Plenty of water, but success rates bottoming out. Usually not (1) thing that changes an environment and in this case the success of finding and catching fish, but I'm always interested if there is a common dinominator that affects multiple situations like this. 

Just like open water fishing, you start to trend the conditions to the level of success. I said earlier, I've seen this poor fishing situation before in a crazy weather pattern and brutal cold winter. And that fall you could walk across the backs of the salmon in the rivers and not get your feet wet. WHERE THE HECK WERE THEY????

I happened to share a few cocktails with the crew of the RV Kaho a few weeks ago. They've been dragging the bototm for all kinds of bio mass studies.... they didn't have any mature salmon carcasses in their nets, plenty of deep water sculpin which continues to show a population growth rate. I won't  get into their bait fish findings....they'll publish them this fall or winter.

So who knows.....but the good news we are all going to find out in just a short time.  

I just want to clear one thing up. And it's a fact not an opinion. While many brown trout and steelhead are "naturally" hatched into the system every fall from the lake migrations, there has never been a survival rate for those species that would have a measurable impact on improving or sustaining the fishing. Simply because those species must "summer over" in their natel tribs and on the south shore there aren't many if any that can sustain those fish through a full summer in the YOY stage. In the case of wild steelhead many stay over a year in a river system

The only factor Brown trout and Steelhead have on multiple returns to a river system and be available to lake trollers year after year besides annual stocking is anglers choosing not to harvest them. (Don't want to get into a debate on mortality of fish caught over and over). Bottom line a fish released at least has a chance to survive. Fish in coolers never swim again. Purely the anglers choice and your license gives you all the right in the world to make that choice.

However, the King Salmon is the one species that has the opportunity to spawn, and it's off spring survive and return to the lake as they are hatched in the early spring of the year after eggs deposited the previous fall, and normally leave the tribs that same May June of hatching attempting to get to open water before river systems water temps become lethal....IN ALMOST every stream on both the North and South shore.

I step around 1000's of newly hatched king salmon in all my steelhead haunts in March and April from tiny little trickles to big rivers. Not going to debate how many survive cause there is no way to know at the moment. BUT...Wild King Salmon have a much greater chance in our South shore systems to replenish the open water stocks then any other species of Salmonids.

So I'll just pitch this as rational thought. In a down year, difficult year that we are having this year, the angling community can take notice of that, and while they may enjoy catching other species, one might not want to harvest their limit to truly not impact other species besides the one in trouble...(if that's the case) The ball's in our court now...not the DEC. Yeah if there was a lost year class they'll know in a very short time and they'll study it and it will be debated....and all of that, but we all can have an impact NOW...on a changing and possible difficult situation, until we know for sure what's going on....to keep other species from also being impacted just because the targets changed for what might be an anomaly here in 2014 before all the facts are known.

To Bandrus...I think you could expect an impact on the brown trout and Steelhead numbers in the river returns....and it's not just all on the Charter fleet. Many rec's will probably keep more of those fish as well if they intend to fill their coolers with fish. Fish creel census for the first part of the boat season showed again steller salmon fish catching numbers, and next highest were steelhead. Now with more anglers targeting fish off shore ....even targeting salmon steelhead by-catch will go through the roof.

In fact I just looked at the chart. the Avg King Salmon per boat April 15 to June 30 was 1.3 per boat...last year 1.5. The Steelhead number actually was WAY up from last year from 0.5 avg to almost 1.5. So the open water fishing fleet has been catching a ton of steelhead, and now probably that number jumps even higher. So I'd say there will be an impact.

The harvested numbers for the big three April 15 to June 30 - 11,200 Kings, 11,110 Browns, and 7,500 steelhead. BTW the king harvest was only topped by 2012 when over 12K were harvested in the same time frame....all the way back to  1985 through 2013 Avg.

One other thing....If you have staging fish who intend to run a river....especially in the staging areas under 100 foot of water, and they stopped being able to retain food for nourishment because their stomach's have collapsed (looks like a deflated baloon)...while they don't lose their instinct to strike at a bait fish, or in the case of sportfishing lures and baits, they aren't very bite friendly. So as these fish mature and if for what ever reason they are maturing faster this year possibly do to conditions....it's also a possible factor that you have a lot of fish not actively feeding.  

I've cleaned salmon with deflated stomachs in July, some years when the salmon fishing was tough and fish seemed to mature faster. The other thing that's a head scratcher in some ways that if there was a serious imbalance of Predator to prey fish for King Salmon knowing what huge feeding machines they are for the three or four years they roam open water, why aren't we seeing more mid 30's to high 30's fish. In the mid 90's to early 2000's when we had less Salmon loaded, we had many years of big fish. Which proved that we didn't have the balance we could afford, and stocking was increased, however the days of high 30's and 40+ pounders started to vanish which you would expect.  More Kings at the table. But maybe I can answer my own question, because there seems by all reports to be an abundance of 1's and 2's. However hard to believe young fish are way out competing their older more mature agressive brothers ans sisters

Might just be a bad year class that rebounds with these younger fish. Don't discount the fact that spawn ready fish aren't all that bitey ....if we have an inordinant larger group of early mature fish....they'll give you fits in trying to catch them.

Yup one would think....part of my point is that from 500 foot of water to 11 miles up a river...there are Kings.....or in other words spread out all over. They'll be no hiding them in the next 60 days, that's for sure. They'll either be home to spawn...or not.

Yesterday I talked with a good friend who works at the Altmar Salmon River Hatchery. They are assisting USGS to live capture some Atlantic Salmon pairs up near the hatchery, that they took back to Tunison to have them spawn naturally, in hopes of putting that brood stock back into the river. They had to push the Kings out of the way of the traps that have already run to the LFZ near the hatchery.  

Not unusual to have King Salmon there in early Aug, but what was noticeable from my buddy's vantage point was how dark there were. Many times the early arrivers are still very bright. These fish looked like they had been in there awhile.  Water temps truly haven't exceeded the high 60's this year in the river, (yesterday was 67 degress). I can only go by the pictures on this site, but seemed like I saw dark fish in July, and very dark fish for early Aug. Just wondering if the crazy conditions this year are maturing some of the Salmon faster, and they are staging very near shore (10 to 30 foot of water)...in warmer temps and not being fished to.

I've seen several seasons like this over the years and they all followed a long cold winter, and a cooler then normal summer. Lots of changing currents which instead of moving the biomass in predicted directions, scatters it, moves bait around and the predators.  I found in all my records....that if the thermocline  stayed higher then the normal doldrums of summer, the fish were higher, matured faster, darkened up quicker, and I was catching big matures and more of them way up out of temp. Looking at my records in water as warm as 68 degrees consistantly. If this is happening you may be fishing under them.

. Also as far as wild fish, in the past few years (Aug 7th last year for me) good size schools of mostly unclipped fish, have run the salmon river in early to mid August in water that was in the 70's. Makes me wonder if these wild fish tolerate warmer temps....in the river, they probably do in the open lake as well.

I fish the Kenai a lot as a DIY'er, but I can offer Mark Glassmaker. Fished with him not for Kings, but that's his speciality. He's in Soldotna, and has several guides and boats in his operation. They fish the Kenai, and the Kasilof. One thing to understand, they can shut down the Kenai and the Kasilof at a moments notice for King Salmon fishing if the counters from the Ocean are showing continued poor migration of fish into the system. His report last week, said the numbers were better then last year, and they get their second run right about now, and they are their bigger fish.

They are getting an earlier run of Sockeyes , and plenty of them, and the trout fishing is off the hook right now mid river.

Mark's number is 800-622-1177. Mark is about a two hour ride from Anchorage down the Sterling Highway, and then only about 45 min to an hour to Homer. Many rivers to fish for trout and salmon down the Seward, and Sterling highways.

There are a lot of bears in and around the Russian ...if they stop to fish there. And since they see a lot of anglers they aren't afraid of humans very much which isn't a good thing, so tell  your friend if they go be careful..

Gambler I know you are a lakers guy....and for where ever we don't see eye to eye, I know you are a diverse angler. I'll never bad mouth lake trout, as they had saved my a$$ on many occasions with a Charter party.

To lighten the mood....I once took out a group of old...and I mean guys in their late 70's early 80's. Four guys who only fished the Finger lakes pulling copper. None of these guys had ever caught a lake trout on a fishing rod. EVER! 

And while we caught some nice kings that day, they wanted to experience lakers on a fishing rod. So in I went to our favorite shoal. Dropped my flashers and peanuts...and couldn't keep four rods in the water, and we had many fish over 10 pounds. Most of the fish these guys caught on a daily basis were on avg. much smaller. Throughout this slugfest with LO lakers, all they discussed while reeling in these fish were what rigs they were going to use the next day pulling copper.  When we got back to the dock...I said WELL??? how was that catching all these wonderful fish on fishing rods....to a man....Ahh...it was OK, but I'd rather pull them in by hand. It was Classic.!

OK enough of my rants.....appreciate your patience....I assure you My interest lies with a healthy fishery for all our species. I love to fish for King Salmon in open water....hence the moniker I received back in the 80's when I put 22 kings over the side on day two of a tournament ..to leap from from 44th place to 1st .in keeping our 10 best....and won $5K.  However now I like chasing some other fish in a different manner....Things change....and I'm OK with that.

Tight Lines boyz.

Back about 10 years ago now we the Lake Ontario Steelheaders group, and CRAA held a joint meeting and all day seminar of  Stakeholders from both shores, and the perspective Fisheries management groups. DEC, and MNR. Both sides made many presentations, on projects, programs and scientific data driven findings and we asked questions from both sides. Nothing at that time had more juice to evaporate rumors and agenda's then this event. Now I realize this was a trib focused seminar, but we had difficulties understanding the directions our shores were headed in.

It was one of the most valuable events I've ever attended. The state of the lake meetings ...lets be honest, there is much mistrust in the room. The tension for the stakehoders to the management officials can be cut with a chain saw. In the event of which I speak, we checked the egos and the special interest agendas at the front door, and got down to facts. Some were debated, some were not accepted by both parties but in the name of science and "politics" we spelled out as far as an agenda was on the table for all to see and understand. BTW Native species was then and always will be a huge topic for the north shore.

So folks if you really want to get something done...get off the computer, and get a joint meeting of all parties involved. It can be done, and quite possibly welcomed by both managment and stakeholders IF....BIG IF, you check all the egos at the door and we act like concerned yet fair stakeholders, and LISTEN!!! ask intelligent questions without malice and mistrust and I think you'll get honest answers. Not saying you'll like them...but now the true playing field is clearly in front of you.

And maybe after having written this....this has actually happened....if so share what you've learned.

Gambler Canada has been trying to revitalize Native Species way longer then just now. And honestly if you had to depend on Canada for our sport fishery would you? I understand that all fish to the system is good, but I have to tell you I believe there's no turning this horse around. Unless they are going to stop the flows in Duffin's, Little Shelter Valley, The Ganny, Wilmont, etc....they can't stop it. Yes they can stop raising fish in a hatchery (I think it will be hard to win that one...IMHO) , but take a ride in Sept to Wilmont and Duffins....you won't get your feet wet walking across those rivers cause you'll be on the backs of thousands of sucessfuly spawning King salmon. Just like our Salmon river. As long as that treaty is in place we will always have king salmon even if every hatchery in the state fell over. I get it that it won't be what we have at the moment, but we won't be starting from scratch

. I also get it that one must study and follow the goings on of their favorite fisheries, and all isn't good news all the time...... . Not trying to put you off Atlantic Salmon but truly there is a lot more REAL effort with stocking in our lake of Lake trout, and if you folllow the GLFC....you'll understand that Lake trout are a bigger target for them (since they now have a history of success in the upper lakes) . And we all know that lake trout live dozens of years and eat lots of bait fish. The chances of them impacting this fishery is far greater at the moment. YET....(and I say this becaue I'm a diverse angler) hook one of those 20 pound plus lake trout on a jigging rod, and I think you might have a different perspective. There is no denying that a 20 pound sport fish in the GL isn't a special fish.

Things change, and evolve.....by all mans fight for what your interests are, but in reality there are others that have different interests. Hence the reason we should ALL try and get on the same page. I still believe this fishery can be enjoyed by a wide varity of interest if managed as a whole diverse fishery, not just from special interest, that includes native species study.

Banding together of stakeholders interests for both the open waters of the lake and the tribs would have a much bigger  impact of urging Environmental agencies to find the right balances for this diversity. That's the only point I'm trying to drive home.

Vince, While I retired my Charter business in 1999 after 20 years to chase my very gifted Athlete daughter around the US playing on elite basketball and soccer teams (my choice and a very good one) , I spent from 1972 until now chasing fish on all the great lakes and rivers, and of course especially LO. Am the past president of what once was the Western Lake Ontario Charter Boat Assoc. and a board member of the NYS Sports Fishing Council. I was a staff writer on the original "Great Lakes Fisherman magazine, and for nine years the LO Editor for NY Sportman Magazine. AND I love lake caught King Salmon and also hope the program stays stable as it is today. Yesterday's Fishing boat census reports for the first part of this year continues to show the interest and success of fishing for all species in the lake and especially King Salmon. I'm not chest pounding boyz...just letting you know I've also been around....I've been involved in the politics, as well as the volunteer programs, as well as the professional business that operate on the lake and rivers.

The Great Lakes Fishery Commission which has an important play in management of all the lakes is the main arm of native species "STUDY". Lake Trout and Atlantic Salmon studies have been going on folks since 1956 when this commisison was started mainly to work on the management of Sea Lampreys that invaded the lakes after the opening of the sea way. My personal view on fishery's today after all my experiences is #1 take care of the environment , which is essentially the food web and water quality for which all of these great games species require, and they will take care of you.

My comments on Atlantic Salmon is to dispell the notion that there is some agenda to replace our current lineup of sport fish in LO for Lake Trout and Atlantic Salmon. And I realize just cause I say that many think I'm speaking out the side of my mouth. Understand that since 1956 the study of these species has been taking place. Both in the US and Canada. We are doing it differntly here then in Canada. Canada because it's lucky to have true natel environments is trying to put fry in a river that has capabilities for natural reproduction. For the record NYS tried at different times in it's king salmon fishery history to stock fry, and the results were not successful either. But we don't have the same water qualities.

I've been fortunate to have spent time with some brilliant scientists. It's a shame that so many are suspicious of these folks who have no agenda other then to unlock the puzzles of science in trying to figure out if LO and the upper lakes has the capability to sustain native species. Most of these guys don't even fish. They are fish nerds if you will that are driven by what all scientists are driven by....finding answers to probelms that haven't been solved. Dr Johnson who leads the A Salmon effort for USGS was once one of the DEC's most gifted biologists who did the studies of our river systems back in the late 70's and declared back then that only a hatchery fishery could continue to sutain sport fishery's in NYS, and his findings were a driving factor of the building of the very Altmar hatchery where our salmon are raised today. He's not a guy with any agenda to undo what he helped start.

While I also have good friends working on the Canada effort that also includes many Rec and volunteer groups like CRAA who are not Govt' funded....let me stick to NYS. Johnson is growing fish to larger sizes just like Roger Griel does at LSSU in Huron....and is trying to spawn returning adult to the salmon river which he has. This effort is not taking up NYS hatchery space from other species and has NO FUNDS for the LO program invested in it.

It's pure scientific study. Three years ago for the first time in 150 years Johnson and his crew found 100's of naturally spawned wild Atlantic Salmon in the river. I don't know how anybody who loves sport fish and understands that this means we are making some strides in bettering the environment in which these fish live can't get behind this even with positive interest. LOTAC today has now planted nearly 40,000 tress for bank improvement that keeps spawning gravel in tack that our King Salmon are thriving in obviously, and the past three years the spring seining events have yeilded YOY Coho salmon for the first time ever.

Is this going to sustain a sport fishery No. (although it has probably helped the King salmon fishing in both the open waters and rivers) But it proves that habitat involvement by Humans can make a difference. I know there is some hard feelings in Canada between sport fishing groups but a group of volunteers who have planted close to 100,000 trees and diverted rain water from storm drains to stop the silting of spawning gravel in the upper Credit have lowered the temps of this Metro Toronto river by a full 7 degrees in the summer and now have very successful wild repo of steelehad. Steelhead that you are all catching. They are seeing returns of spawning fish in the 10's of thousands....where once they were lucky to retun 3000 adult fish.

Is there really anything wrong with trying to improve the habitat for which our very diverse population of sport fish require? After I stopped spending 150 days a season on the Lake, I started spending that same amount of time on the rivers. My eyes were opened wide to the connection of the entire fishery not just the lake or just the tribs. Can you imagine if we all got on the same page? If we all had interest in managing the entire fishery environment and not be split ...and has been for decades?

Yeah, I'm just not a one species of fish type of guy. I love them all, they all have their place, and for that I'm interested in supporting them all....including the efforts on native species. Lastly I'm more then anything a realist. I might have another 20 years on this earth to enjoy this fishery. From what I've seen, I think I have a realistic view of two things. Since LO sits at the bototm of the chain of lakes, I believe we will always have alwifes, because all the fertil water runs down to us. Populations will flux, but they won't go away in my lifetime. And two, I highly doubt from what I've seen that we'll have a very large naturally sustainable A salmon fishery in NYS. We'd have to plant millions of trees, take out dozens of barriers, and shut down factories and farms all along the South shore waterways.....and that's not realistic. BUT having said that, those A salmon that I do catch, and they are fantastic fish (in a river) , will forever more have my interest to study them, and help where ever I can.

I do wish in my lifetime Fishermen could see the big picture. Let's face it both lake and trib anglers are special interest groups. We fight hard for our fisheries. We should all be fighting hard for the entire fishery. One last thing....let's stop the sensless name calling. I'm as passionate as you are about these fish, my 40 plus years of volunterring, working in, going to Albany to fight for, and years spent writing about this...wasn't just done for my enjoyment. Let's start acting like adults, businessmen and women, and concerned stakeholders of this wonderful natural resource.

Yeah...I get that a lot....(Ha Ha)