Big Water

I've been trying to put together a crew for the WHI but can't get them to commit. For now, I'll be in the LOC, 1k and hopefully give the pro/am a shot too.

I'll be there!!!

Last year, for some reason, local shops on the west end of the lake were out of cut bait but had whole herring. I bought that and found that I had better success on whole herring than normal cut herring. Question is; Who stocks whole herring on the west end without ordering it online? I need to prove the repeatability of my success to myself.

I've got people who regularly drive 7-8 hours to fish with me but I can't talk them into attending with me. Their loss.

Great report and pics! Thanks for posting and keep the pics coming.

Um I'm a true archery hunter until 3-4 years ago when I had a bad accident, not only can't I pull a bow back, I couldn't even pull the string back on a crossbow till I got the auto crank. I certainly can't climb up in a tree stand. I can't go scouting around anymore so my brother in law is big into archery so he's always looking for a good ground blind for me. So I guess not only am very limited as to what I can do, oh ya I can't load one if I do get lucky, I'm stripped of my sportsmanship.

Happy Birthday Pap!!! You're too you to be laid up. Fishing trumps hunting anyway.

The equation for a constantly accelerating object (such as falling under gravity, and in these short distances we can ignore air resistance) is d = 1/2at², where d = distance, a = acceleration, and t= time.

At 450fps the arrow will travel 50 yards in 1/3 of a second, so that's t. a = 32 fps/s, the force of gravity.

So, solving for d:

d = 1/2 * 32 * (1/3)²

d= 16*0.11

d= 1.78 feet

If fired perfectly horizontally the arrow will fall 1.78 feet at 50 yards.

Pretty damn cool device!

Edit for rounding error.

ASB Tackle in Newfane NY. Real good guy and he'll ship.  (716) 638-4158

LMFAO!! It has to be the first time in LOU history that the word cosine was used in an LOU post.

  Sorry!!!   My analytical side is showing (most would say overly analytical)

Geez Big I wasn't in any way "arguing" anything just throwing in my two cents and my last comment was basically directed at all the technical stuff. I

Sk8man,  that certainly wasn't directed at you.  You seem like a real straight shooter and I do appreciate your comments.  I just didn't want someone trying to explain blow-back to me.  I've thought that when I drop the riggers, maybe a fish sees it as an escaping baitfish, follows it down, and then at some point hits the lure.  What I'm not seeing, at least to the same degree, is fish hitting when I raise the riggers.  Like I mentioned, dropping down under them by a substantial distance has yielded many strikes.   

One of the things I've noticed over the years is that VERY frequently the fish I actually catch I didn't mark at all beforehand suggesting that they may be way outside the cone angle

Sk8man,

I would bet 95+% of the fish I catch I didn't see on the screen.  Steelhead seem to be slightly more predictable.  What I've observed time and time again over the years is when I see fish and drop my riggers 30-40' under them, I catch fish.  I understand rigger blow-back, cosines of angle and hypotenuse  so let's not argue about this and perceived depth.

There are several scenarios. The fact is that what you are seeing is not always what anyone thinks it is. YOU probably think it is a fish because that is what you want to see. The video shows it directly. A stick floating in the water shows on the sonar.

I agree and FULLY understand.  My intent wasn't to debate sonar observations.

You cant tell me what is down there buy an "arch"

No....but you can understand what possible different scenarios resulted in the display.  There CAN be more than one possible series of events that result in the observed pattern,  Knowing which it was is a matter of probability that can't be determined with absolute confidence without direct observation.

All I can say is what you see on the finder is not what is really down there. Drop a camera down and compare it to the finder! You will be surprised.

It's really just geometry.  A moving cone in the water column encountering stationary and moving objects.  Once you recognize that, the observed results are very understandable.

Big Water,

 

The point I wanted to make is the fish arc is formed when the fish is not moving much relative to the boat but you can use that to sort of determine how deep the fish appears to be when at the outer edge of the cone compared to the center of the transducer's cone. If you use the example screen shot below you can see that can be 20 feet or so. For a specific setup it depends on how wide the cone is on your transducer and how deep the fish is (because the cone gets wider with depth).

 

But suppose the fish is swimming along in the same direction as the boat but slightly slower than the boat. You will loose the arc shape and it will be elongated because the fish remains within the cone much longer if it is swimming with the boat. If the boat is going slightly faster than the fish is swimming then that elongated shape will angle up as the fish moves from the edge of the cone to the center of the cone and it will appear like the fish streaked up and then fell away even if the fish remained at the same depth the whole time.

 

 

Well understood

Very interesting Mark. Seems like you'd need to be on the ball to avoid tangles if the spoon went.

Smart Troll thanks for the detailed explanation which will likely be beneficial to some newer guys. I'm well aware of the mechanics of fish finders and why the "arch" occurs. The situation I'm referring to is fish moving up/down 20 to 40'.

Do you think the colder and wide daily/weekly variation of temps are conducive to this species? Other than a reduction of the nutrient rich water coming from Erie, is this a real or perceived problem? I don't know those answers, which is why I ask.

I like the idea of having something down and behind...what do you typically run on that dipsey?

A MUPS rig with a fixed slider 10-15' above your main rigger line works well.  Have a 6' fixed slider and back your main line 15-25' off of the ball.

Good responses Sk8man and Tyee II. That GoPro story is why I've never bothered with putting one down. I figured it would just frustrate me, but you make a good point that if you're at least drawing them in, you're doing something right.

Thanks for the replies guys. Sk8man, I don't know what you're seeing, but I have a lot of fish streaking to look at lures and even following for extended periods. I don't think this is uncommon and if I knew the trick to force them to hit, I'd certainly use it. Changing lures, speed and direction sometimes works. If I had to wager a guess, I'd think that 15-30 fish probably follow for each one that "commits". Underwater GoPro clips probably confirm this. I guess my point is that active fish will travel from quite a distance to investigate.

Edit: I am referring to salmon and trout. With walleye and structure relating fish, I believe that proximity is critical.

After season and season of seeing fish streak up AND down 20 to 40' to look at lures, I wonder what is the true benefit of knowing the exact depth your lures are running. I think that with very negative fish there may be some benefit of hitting them in the nose with your lure, but I'm not convinced being 10-15' away with your presentation makes a great deal of difference. Thoughts?

Happy New Year to you John. This site speeds the learning curve by years and brings out the best in people or maybe just the best people.

Welcome aboard Phil2. Pick your days very carefully with your boat. Be Safe, have Fun.

Well done. Thanks for posting!