Thanks guys for the input. As stupid as this sounds, i am more concerned about getting the right reels and rods as opposed to finding cheap ones or used ones. Thanks Bottom Feeder and I will keep that in mind if I decide to go used. I put enough aside to buy rod and reel outfits up to $300 each so I think i am good there. Just not sure if i should go Tekotas, Penn, saltist by Daiwa. I was hoping that someone on here used the Abu Garcia Alphamar. They look perfect for downrigger reels but too small for copper. I plan on putting my boat in oswego and mexico so i will probably buy from the local tackle shop around there like the one in Oswego. I live in rural PA where we used to have two decent shops and now they are gone and I can't get perch bait too easily. I would rather support the shop and hopefully get good reports and bait if needed in return. Driving from Tamaqua Pa to Oswego is long and expensive so hopefully that shop helps me because I am supporting him. maybe I am naive. Thanks guys for your input.