RUNNIN REBEL

Hey Rick, That's 2 things we agree on in 1 week.........Keep it up and your going to get a free Canadian hatchery pullover and a reversible lapel pin................ Chad , Interest or not fishing under 150' feet of water on one of the best structure this lake has with more bait packed in these waters for months and fishing all paddle sets gets next to zero incidental lakers caught TOTAL in years ..... Verses Team Yankee and all other tournament guy's will catch hundreds of incidental laker numbers in just 2-3 days fishing 1st tournament near Niagara with close to same set up . Lake trout will not move that relatively short distance ( Niagara area to Toronto and beyond) Even With the current.............. Jerry RUNNIN REBEL

Gill-T Targeting Lake Trout in Canada (From Jordan to Bay of Quinte-- summertime) would be like targeting steelhead summertime from Henderson Harbor to Oswego Dailey.....You really can count the number of Lake trout caught in the past years by Canadian anglers and US tournament fisherman. The bait NEAR SHORE there was good early on. One problem in Canada is we count Commorants by the 1/4 MILE lines they fly in to the feeding grounds everyday coming off their colony roosts on Toronto Islands............AND add them up.........Another subject for another day......................... Jerry RUNNIN REBEL

This is why I invited you and as many people I could to that meeting, so you guy,s could inform the decision makers one on one of your vast time and experiences lake trout fishing Hamlin pt. to Braddock pt generally 220' ft of water and in.(BEST consistent lake trout waters in the entire lake) Then that is added to the Oswego area experiences (60 degree +++++water temps still down over 150' depths usually with predominant west push winds this time of year) And Henderson area experiences (40++year Lake Ontario Veteran up there) were LOCATION structure/precise "Trench/Wall/cut area) fishing Predominates. Then To Canadian waters where you can count on 2 hands the lake trout caught west of Toronto Islands (BEST structure on Lake Ontario) in the past decades !!!!!!!!! Finally to Niagara river flow areas (especially springtime) That Gill-T mentioned Is by far the best time of year/ to location/ to high concentration ratio in the Entire Lake PERIOD.............Gill-T I fish that area currently for many years in Canadian tournaments w/Team Yankee troller from Port Dalhousie/Canada to Wilson NY EARLY SPRING TIME before Olcott/Wilson area or any Canadian marinas are publically open up for the year. There are EVEN MORE Lake trout in that area evenly distributed in top water to 300' down water column than you see when you get out off Olcott. TAKE AWAY ALL these unique areas are combined to come up with data for LAKEWIDE MANAGEMENT *( USA & CANADA) as stated at meeting, Lake Ontario has pretty much 2 regional factions on top of this 24/7 12 months, the NYS DEC & Canadian OMNR & forestry. Unlike the other Great Lakes that have many states and Canada involved with data collection. If you for example put that much time fishing Offshore 350' of water plus or fished lake trout in entire Canadian north shoreline waters (both these areas would encompass %80 or more of total Lake Ontario fishing square area) not only would you be out of business you would need a 4th & 5th job to cover all those generally less productive areas. Jerry RUNNIN REBEL

ABSOLUTLY Pete !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is my idea of a "Trophy King fishery" Having Abundant kings that size over the chance to catch a #40+ king. This year the fishing looks great . it is the 2017-2018 area of possible concern. Like I mentioned the lag time from data to REALITY is long. I wish I would get more information on here from the Oswego area anglers besides the hard core charter buddies I get text/pictures from. Example is Tom Allen's online experience's with catching mainly LARGE or small alewife and his countless hours on water (winter/summer) is the type of info needed that start questions and study/debate. I also have an outdoor stand alone freezer at my house collecting salmon heads/nose tags from clipped adipose kings. I know you guy's east have the same set up in Oswego and hopefully participate in. Jerry RUNNIN REBEL

Thanks Les, PLEASE, Keep up your questions-experiences and what ever your line of expertise is !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am just the middle man relaying information for everyone on LOU Jerry RUNNIN REBEL

Les, When they TRY to manage this lake, They start at a reference data point then look to direction. By the time a trend is established it is usualy to late in the stocking/what little corrections can be made time frame. Data for most part is collected/analyzed in spring-summer AFTER that current year stocking are put into the lake, This creates a tremendous lag time of a 4 year average "behind the 8 ball". Not to mention the previous 3 years of stocked fish you have little control over. That's why I say "next trend OR direction" "hypothesis" "loose prediction" and "hindsight" I have been corrected many times by these Bi-national panels at presentations on Studies protocol........ Jerry RUNNIN REBEL

Brian, Correct 1 year of decline is not convincing. As far as Lakers not in their normal areas, Vast Majority Lakers (few different stock strains are the exception) are almost always sooner or later on/near bottom concentrated in SMALLER AREAS near ENTIRE Lake Ontario shoreline. They are not big movers, they actually "slide" (Scientists-biologist & professors term) along shoreline, which incidentally is the reason gill net data is effective. 35 years of gill net data show in hind sight the years of heavy alewife/die off years with almost a decade of record lake trout population in Lake Ontario. The meetings I attend Ottawa, Canada in 2016 and Duluth, Minnesota 2017( All Great Lakes graphs/charts and representatives included) try to "hypothesis" (again their term) on next year trend or direction ? The loose prediction is downward again in 2016/2017. BUT their saying is "Mother Nature always bats last". As you pointed out, Weather conditions play a huge part in this. I am with you on this one, lets see 2-3 years down trend to below average numbers. AGAIN, I push for only looking at last 10 years data, as the 1980's-1990's Lake Ontario set up is not coming back. Jerry RUNNIN REBEL

. A VERY IMPORTANT NUMBER when discussing Lake trout pressure on a food source ecosystem. You need to know How many Lake Trout are in your system and trends. Everyone seems to assume there are big numbers out there now. The Lake trout abundance chart has been used since 1980 (BEFORE the early lake trout stockings had a chance to grow 20+++ years on the huge numbers of alewife dyeing off on the beaches. These are gill-netted fish(shows all sizes/ages/health including badly hit by lamprey/dyeing fish).These numbers count the Class 1 (Open wound/freshest) lamprey hits against per 100 lake trout to pretty much tell how Lake Ontario lamprey control is working and possible trends. NOW, this number also represents the CURRENT lake trout in Lake Ontario that are putting the MOST pressure on alewives NOW. What we stock in Lake Trout last year and this year and the next 3 years have very little effect if any on current and 2-3 year future potential bait fish number concerns. The current number of lake trout in the lake now are AROUND the same numbers of Lake trout we had in 1985 AND Late 1990's (1998/1999) and early 2000's. Not a high or low number of them just Average. That's why you are not catching Lake Trout Lake wide in USA & Canada. Average amount of lake trout present. Since 2010-2011 they have gone up in numbers (^trend^) for 3 to 4 years Then last year 2015 started down. TAKE AWAY FROM THIS The perception of " We are putting to many Lake Trout numbers in the lake now " The extra 200,000-300,000 Lake trout being stocked as fingerlings have had very little survival since extra numbers inception, and are being CANCELLED. There is your 1st cut in Lake trout stocking numbers. (NOTE chart : "DECLINE in gill net catch of immature fish since 2010/likely to remain at this level) If potential adjustment in salmon number comes, You can bet the 2015 decline on chart will continue down (v trend v) with the increased fishing pressure from fisherman/charters trying to catch fish consistently (this is proven every time IF fishing for salmon or steelhead is POOR then fishing pressure increases on the other species) PERSONAL OBSERVATION: Why cut Lake trout stocking numbers now, When they need a few years to grow/catchable ? That time frame (5 years out + or - ) puts you in the middle of the salmon adjustment number years, When MORE viable diverse fishery will be sought after most........... Jerry RUNNIN REBEL

Rick. You and your WHOLE extended team members give me more data & Lakewide observations almost Dailey than most Agencies I deal with PERIOD....And I appreciate that VERY MUCH. We always politely disagree and are usually both understanding after. My point was, So many fisherman concerned about Lake Trout should do what they can is all. Not many charters out there( MYSELF INCLUDED ) fish for the easiest target species out there after they limit on silvers and have to drive over the Lake trout to get back in port........As far as tourny's go , most everyone could do something in their power to adapt rules reflecting there concerns. There are a lot of people here on LOU that are open for discussions going different ways. You are a top 10. GREAT Michigan stocking update post too .... PS Please show me how to type "RED" print sometime. Correct it is not as gloomy as you think. We have had the highest catch rates for quite awhile now. Gill-T We are trying to look back at the last 10 years data now only. The 1980's----early 1990's Lake Ontario set up will never be that again. YES Lake Erie played a big part in Lake Ontario's reduction. (Google: SECCHI disk) There is about 1/4 to 1/3 the amount of Adult alewife's in the lake now compared to the 1980's--early1990's average. That's why at every meeting/conference call I attend, I push to use last 10 year's data only and observe the trends. Jerry RUNNIN REBEL

ALL GOOD POINTS....................Moving Forward>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Scott and Brian I hope to meet up with both of you tonight ??????? Jerry RUNNIN REBEL

Trust me... More people will be upset with a March or April Niagara Lake trout derby than with the DEC/FEDS not cutting lake trout stocking numbers. Jerry RUNNIN REBEL Put Gambler with Gill-T now in the "positive forward column"

Gill that is thinking pro-active...why complain if you are NOT doing your part. These Tourny guy's on here are the same who LIMITED lake trout catches in their own derbies............... Rich S ---Tall Tails,Brian and even Gill T Chad continue questioning and observe as many e-mails/phone calls or in person meetings you can. A-LURE-A the size to length ratio and catch ratio is exactly how you see trouble, But they are lagging indicators. Plus there should be no problems this year . It is 2017-2018 where concern is Justin Predator /prey ratio is the best way to TRY and balance mother nature 4 years down the road Best ratio .05 predator /prey Lake Huron was .11 years before crash Lake Michigan is .10 Lake Ontario we do not know Abe-Rdebadts I wish more people would interact with as many lake Ontario agencies as they can. Brian/Gambler We will see any stocking cuts returned. (After period of concern). I will be all over that at more Bi-national meetings than you could even guess Jerry RUNNIN REBEL

First , Stocking "zero " lake trout this year and last year and next 2 years have little to no affect on the current concerns of pressure on the remaining (5 year Old class currently the oldest majority in lake) and younger alewife population. The concern is (assuming 2 more mild/short winters) the current breeding population needs to carry the entire hatches for 2017-2018. Until the missing 2 year classes of alewife work up and threw the system. Bait trawls measure length/weight and AGE alewife's, as few as a couple years ago we had common & abundant alewife's up to 9 years old in catches. So with 9 year classes of alewife's moving threw the system, and 1 severe winter was a non facture.(and happened frequently) 9 year classes in lake -----with 1 bad winter == 1 year class low alewife population working threw system has little concern (common) 5 year classes in lake (coincidentally this is close Michigan numbers) ----- with 2 bad winters (back to back SEVERE/LONG winters) Unprecedented has not happened in recent times Gives us the current concern for 2017-2018 hatches with 2 missing year classes out of only 5 classes in this years trawls are not good odds Yes lake trout are on the cutting block discussion, 1 lake trout/ Atlantics & lamprey control are bonus Fed $$$$$ You don't send back a welfare check because you get a EBT card KEEP BOTH ******* NY State also wants a lake trout and Atlantic Salmon program also REGARDLESS of federal funding ****. 2 current lake trout abundance in lake (number they use to track lamprey stage #1hits per 100 lake trout is increasing BUT still at lower levels 3 When your marking bait (especially offshore) how many times does your rods fire with lake trout ? And with everyone fishing 200 ft of water and less (LAKE TROUT country) with huge flashers for past months (before northeast blow) How many incidental lake trout did you catch ? 4 Canadian waters (EXCEPTION: Niagara river to Hamilton) Lake trout year round pressure on alewife is low. It is mostly an inshore fishery with most bait locations 60 feet of water and less) and you can count on 1 hand how many Lake Trout caught there in YEARS . 5 Why are people who question Lake trout/Alewife pressure PROTECTING them ? EVERY tournament committee member/every tournament-derby fisherman-every charter business and rec. fisherman should not be making or agreeing too rules: "no lake trout category in Fall L.O.C. derby" OR King of Oak Orchard changes rules to only 1 lake trout OR ALL Pro-Am tourney's limit 1 or 2 lake trout allowed in catch OR EVERY other "SALMON ONLY" contest out there could have a 1 or 2 bonus Lake trout only addition. Be proactive if you are truly concerned about Lake trout diets................................................... Charter Capt. saying "don't fish for lake trout if not necessary--YOU ARE ALOUD lake trout in your limits before-during and after you fish for silver fish. ALL pro-am's should have a 5 point BONUS for every Lake trout entered in Tourny. March/april/may large numbers and biggest congregation of breeder/feeding lake trout could be "thinned out" easily off Niagara river...... Not to mention the absolute best Lake trout waters in all Lake Ontario are between my kitchen table and my kid's swing set....I watch it everyday before and after I leave for work with few if anyone thinning them out........ Jerry RUNNIN REBEL

The state has confirmed type E botulism (botulism has always been in the lake Ontario & Erie),but zebra/Quagga mussels and gobies seem to make it worse. NY State 1-800# is no longer coming out collecting birds for testing. "The sky is not falling", precautions should be taken for dog owners on/near beaches of dogs rolling/eating dead birds & fish. Jerry RUNNIN REBEL Pvelyk You are right on with your quote " I seem to remember an article way back about muscles filtering the bad stuff, Gobies eating zebras and bird eating gobies and getting sick. Perfect example of bad things going up food chain. "

Again this year I Will have a freezer on my property to collect nose tags from clipped salmon. Bags will be provided and instructions are on the freezer. . PM me for address ( just east of Sandy Creek public boat launch) Hamlin, N. Y. I will pick up if needed. Thanks for your help . JERRY Runnin Rebel

. That's awesome. Somehow I lost my Sonar pics............................................

. Linda The lake flipped over on the USA side. Canada now has our warm water (and some of our bait too). Like above post said head out to deeper water and down. This sonar pic was east of Whitby this week. 73 degrees surface and 54 degrees down 120 ft.......Not to common to be fishing over there past 140 feet of water. Good luck Jerry RUNNIN REBEL.

Sick and Funny crowd on LOU................. Result: The Tug fleet seemed to have slowed up long enuff for the race to finish early/scatter with looming dark clouds to the west. Jerry RUNNIN REBEL

A working tugboat pulling two barges and a 3rd barge w/huge dredger on it. Heading directly in the middle of a large 20 sailboat race.

Remember the "future concern" is for the 2017-2018 season (Assuming we have mild/short winters again) Cutting Lake trout stockings %100 percent this year or even last year would have close to no effect on the potential alewife problem of 2017-2018. Lake trout grow relatively fast the first 5 years of their life. BUT They don't put much pressure on the alewife existing numbers at this early age. AGAIN ---We are missing 2 year classes of alewife in a row and there are LARGE 4-5 year old alewife's out there now. Jerry RUNNIN REBEL **** Headed to Toronto/Bluffer's area/ Canada now to fish Salmon derby, will post more info when I get back ****