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King Davy

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Everything posted by King Davy

  1. Yeah Brian I sit on a panel that just got this data Tuesday night on steelhead fishing on the tribs . But the best thing for you to do is call Scott Prindle at the Cortland office and ask for the 2019 to 2020 trib data. It’s their reports to make public not mine. Vince is on this panel as well and he can comment how many bank anglers he sees every season on little 18 mile as well as the Niagara. He mentioned in the meeting of the significant usage in Niagara county. Scott has a break down of angler usage on every stream they surveyed from the 18 mile to the black. The numbers don’t lie. And you might be very surprised of the Sandy numbers. If the trib fishery was so small DEC wouldn’t be making significant reg changes. They did it to maintain viable fishing on the tribs for its long season. To ensure you and anyone else who has doubts simply reach out to the State. At the end of the day if the trib season wasn’t a viable part of the fishery DEC, USGS and USF&W would’t be spending so many hours on stream rehab projects, water quality impact studies as they have. Nor would the New York Power Authority just start a base flow program this past Saturday through the Oak and Sandy to induce fish in now and through the end of the canal closure in Nov. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  2. Gambler you are WAY misinformed. Our Sandy is a Brown Trout Destination. People from as far away as Oregon, Montana, and every state in the NE. Out fitters from Colorado run trips to our own back yard all of Oct and Nov. we have the biggest on Avg brown trout in the US. The Genny Had the highest catch rates of steelhead per angler hour of all our rivers. All our tailwater fisheries there are 7 in total fish fish from Sept to end of April. Candidly they actually fish way into May if we have our usual slow spring warm up. There are currently 23 rivers along the South Shore that get steelhead stocked. Most of those streams get a run of brown trout. The eastern tribs not as much but from Sodus west every river, stream and trickle gets fished every day for at least until the smaller streams ice up for our brown trout. The tail water tribs are fished right to May. Take a drive to the salmon river in Feb when the temp is near or below 0 and the parking lots are full if the bite is on. The reason DEC was good with reducing the brown trout creel limit from 3 to 1 on our tribs is during their stream census when the agent talks to the folks fishing and crunched the numbers they realized this is the largest fall winter brown trout destination in the US. Bar none. And anglers are coming from as far away as the west coast. And several other countries not to just mean Canada. Last year’s steelhead fishery on the Salmon had anglers from 39 states, and 8 different countries. You guys seem to be basing all your understanding of this huge program on the six week salmon run. The real serious trib anglers show up in full force as soon as the browns and steelhead arrive. Normally by Columbus Day and they’ll be here till the opening of Turkey season. The Oak for its mile of wadable stream has the highest angler concentration in that mile of water than probably any other river in the NE and possibly the US when it’s brown trout time. You can’t find 10 feet to fish most days. And over 50% of the cars during that time frame are from out of state. It’s grown in leaps and bounds since 2004 when the state reduced the steelhead creel on the tribs from three to one. While there are guides working any and all these rivers the majority are bank guiding not boat fishing. And their dance cards are full. But don’t take my word for it simply call the DEC and get the data. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  3. The value to the lake shore communities is the river season is 8 months long. And lots of local and out of state visitors who are spending their dollars on the very same food lodging,gas and tackle. It’s cash flow to these places that otherwise would turn them into ghost towns in the winter and early spring. At the end of the day the important thing is there is cash flow in the state from this fishery 12 months a year which allows many of businesses involved to keep their doors open instead of having a seasonal business. I’m sure the one thing we have in common is we all appreciate having this year long fishery. It’s a welcome relief from the daily trials and tribulations. Out fishing the G today, one fish, marked a ton. Saw a couple others caught. Sounds like up the river is starting to heat up. All the best folks. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  4. Yes I agree 2020, 19 and 17 had effect on boating hours. I’m looking at the state of the lake numbers reported each spring. Those are for trout and salmon trips only. (I think bass as well). They aren’t nearly 900k hours. That number might be all fishing trips to include pan fish pike etc. BUT it’s a great point that both the open water fishing, and the trib season are no worse than equal in effort despite the trib season occurring through the winter.....and all the hunting seasons and why DEC manages the trout and salmon fishery as a 12 month a year entity. Also DEC does river census every year in the salmon river, but only every five years on all the rest of the tribs from west to East. 2019 through spring of 2020 the trib effort was extremely high when they caught the entire trib landscape. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  5. Rick anybody who fishes our tribs is a stakeholder which includes the 1000’s of out of state anglers who buys a license to fish NY , stay in the lodges and motels/hotels. Eat in the restaurants. Last year in September to Columbus Day the Salmon river alone had over 950k angler hours, twice more than the entire lake season and yes 2019 lake season suffered from high water but the avg angler hours on the lake the last several years has been between 3 and 400k. The Salmon river alone outpaces the lake effort. When you add in all the rest of the entire trib landscape the number can be 4x the lake effort. Don’t believe me call Cortland DEC and talk to Scott. I’m surprised as great a salmon angler as you are ( and I’m truly not patronizing you) you need to kill 3 steelhead per man. There are more total salmon in the lake than back in the 80’s and 90’s when we didn’t have the habitat that today produces millions of wild salmon hatches. You just put a report out on a tournament that you won where you were targeting two year old kings to win. Can’t eat your cake... and have it too. Once you kill that two year old..... he’ll never return as a three year old stager. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  6. Yes a stakeholder is anyone who uses the resource. And the overwhelming majority of people who use the lake and tributaries are recreational anglers. Do you really only want to be represented by those who make money off the resource when it comes to offering input in how the program is managed? Gill I’m sure Lucky has no problem with you knowing his name. Your work is done? Why didn’t you just ask him. How is that work? Lucky I think Gill wants to have you over for beers and BBQ Rick in our meeting with DEC Tuesday night they did disclose their plan B to recover salmon eggs if necessary. Several highly respected Charter Boat Capt’s were on the call. I was on the salmon river yesterday and while we can’t visit the hatchery I have friends who work there. According to my discussion there are hundreds of both Kings and cohos in the ladder. While the LFZ is closed you can still walk in and check it out. I did and saw several hundred salmon in there fully protected by the closure. The biggest issue right now is low water. Beaver Dam brook is a trickle so while several hundred fish have reached the hatchery the brook isn’t holding fish as usual since its to low. Which is probably why the fish are hanging in the LFZ. Anglers who wish to fish the river have every right to do so including fishing for salmon. Regardless of new regs nobody ever said since steelhead are managed for the tribs lake fishermen shouldn’t fish or catch them or keep them with in the limits. At some point after over 50 years of success in keeping this entire fishery Viable .... for all angler interest you folks need to trust our fishery managers and the highly capable biologists and technicians who work in DEC. They’ve certainly earned that trust and respect. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  7. Gill T your narrative is getting old. We were asked to participate on a panel for both NYS, and also the Bi National panel by the Bureau Chief of Fisheries to represent Tributary initiatives. Charlie and I have 40 years of experience on this fishery both open waters and tribs including public involvement and service. I guess Hurst and LaPan feel we have valuable insight in that arena to offer. But why don’t you ask them why they asked our involvement. You seem intimidated by that since you are always taking shots. I know you don’t know me and I doubt you know Charlie. You’ve never had a face to face conversation with me. I couldn’t pick you out of a crowd of two. You seem to fear the aspect of the states Atlantic Salmon program. Truly sorry for your angst. Do your best to hang in there. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  8. Nope. If you throw down the million you get the Joss Hole all to yourself. It wouldn’t be part of the DSR lease. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  9. DavidA all depends on what the deed to the land stipulates. I wasn’t in court way back when the judge made the ruling but what I understood was the land deed from way back in the 1700’s when this land was settled by the family, they owned both sides of the river and the river bottom was included. I assume the judge found the land deed to be authentic and why the ruling. Be careful to compare different rivers and watersheds legal access rights as they are usually unique in their own way. This was decided a long time ago I don’t see the sense in still debating this. Hey the Joss property which Barkley leases is up for sale. They want 1$ Million for 800 feet of frontage. Any takers? Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  10. I think we have to recheck the rules. I’ve never known that you couldn’t float through. I know of a few river guides that float through the DSR especially in spring. But they must have passes because they want to anchor and float fish or plug different sections. The issue today would be you couldn’t get a pool toy through the DSR without bottoming out this time of year with the flows. The ferc license calls for flows at 335 cfs. Now holding at 185 with the low Rez. With additional water from some small tribs the cfs under normal conditions might be 120 cfs greater. So maybe 450 cfs. Still at that rate there are several sections you’d have to get out. And with 250 people in their during salmon season why would anybody want to be in that mess with a boat. With most people standing in the flows and pocket water. The land owners pay taxes that include the acreage that is the bottom. So if you stand in it without permission you are trespassing. I know of many landowners that have creeks running through their properties that own both sides of a creek so if you think you can walk down the middle of it to jump ducks or deer etc, without permission... your trespassing. Don’t confuse this with a lake and the high water mark as a boundary. Small Rivers streams and trickles generally have two distinct shores and owners that own both or to separate owners where each may own to the center of the creek or river. Like many have said there’s another 10 miles of river upstream of the DSR. So if you dislike the situation go up river. Obviously the place fills up everyday during the salmon run because there are many who enjoy that water and are willing to pay to get on it... AND agree to play by the rules of the property.
  11. Well i can tell you the fish scoot through the DSR pretty quickly. You have to be there on a special day where fish hold long enough to actually present a bait to them. Coho’s come through at warp speed and most Kings blast through there without stopping. They limit the numbers of anglers in the run. If you are a season pass holder you are never turned away. But after salmon season from late fall/winter through spring there is usually no more than 30 to 60 people in 2.5 miles. For me that’s worth every penny. It’s under management for pay to fish because the landowners were sick and tired of the slobs that walked on for free and trashed their land. Are all the farmers out there that offer deer leases any different. Ok the state didn’t stock the deer, but trout and salmon don’t swim into the DSR and stay there for very long. They are on a mission to come up river. And you are not allowed to kill a trout or Atlantic salmon on this property so nobody fishing there is taking fish out before free roam fishing comes into play. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  12. I’m happy to do full disclosure. Gill didn’t know you were a lawyer besides being a DDS.(just kidding) Ok way back before it was day or season lease to fish both Barkley and a couple other land owners (3) owned property on one side of that 2.5 miles of water and Doug the length on the other side (north and south side). And between the Barkley and the other land owners they collectively pay taxes on and including the stream bed. Back to pre pay days. They decided to post it up and leaned towards not letting anybody fish it Why? Because the anglers who walked it freely did what? Trashed it every year. From human waste to tons and I mean metric tons of garbage that guess who had to clean up? Easy guess the land owners. Barkley talked the other land owners into leasing to him and he’d try to manage it, and to do so had to hire people to run the business. He created a dozen or so paying jobs in a economical poor area to manage the property, the several nice lodges bordering it, and run the fishing operation. Over the years it has gotten more expensive as almost any service these days, but he has created manicured trails. A welcome center so you can dress and undress in the dead of winter. Clean men and women’s restrooms, and a staff to walk the property to not only dismiss those fishing unethically, but also for safety measures in case of injury. DSR has been host to several veterans and CFR events at no charge and driven participants around the property who had physical issues to walk and wade. In 2014 when we were seeing a huge die off of steelhead, DEC used the DSR property to collect not only steelhead but especially salmon eggs to test for B1 deficiencies. That year we saw a huge number of salmon not going up river and DEC wondered if B1 deficiencies were present in the salmon since they didn’t appear to have the energy to run to the hatchery. The DSR property was the ideal place to do collect samples and Barkley welcomed them just as he does every year in the all important seining event to determine the annual salmon egg hatch. I am no longer a guide( never was a river guide) I fish his property because I get the best shot at fresh run fish that are much better biters than they will be up river after running the gauntlet for 10 miles. Much like many of you who lease private owners land to deer, duck and goose hunt. You do it because you want a safe, and semi private (semi because many of you lease with your friends) place to hunt. Many of those deer leases are WAY more expensive than fishing on the DSR. Finally I know of three other places on the Salmon where you either have to pay to fish their water, or you have to be staying at their lodge to access their property. Bottom line the DSR is pay to fish simply because “Sportsman” literally crapped all over their property and left enough garbage to fill a landfill. That Gill... is the full disclosure. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  13. Last time DEC did a fin clip of hatchery raised salmon and then did a calculation upon their fall egg take, the natural reproduced fish inside the hatchery was greater than hatchery returns. My experience in the many places I’ve fished around the US and Canada is that wild reproduced fish generally had better survival instincts. DEC believed at the time that about 60% of the salmon population was wild. I bet if you asked them today that number would be even higher. But they certainly are much smaller upon entering the open waters of LO. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  14. Absolutely. If spawning salmon get in any river or creek , eggs hatch late winter early (March) spring. Those fish are in the fingerling stage by April, when water in the tribs is generally in the high 40’s to low 50’s. They begin to make there way towards the lake in May and June. Faster if the water begins to warm up sooner. We tend to not name streams especially small ones on this site so I won’t call them out. You can’t miss these little par marked fish. As you step along the stream bed they’ll congregate behind you eating stream invertebrates you kick up. In study’s done by DEC many years ago they’ve done shore line netting in June and have found these naturals along shore that were smaller then the crop of hatchery raised fish. Let’s do some math just for the Salmon. They begin their seining project every spring late April, but all of May into June. Every week and they sample from Altmar right to where the salmon river enters the lake. A “banner” year is a result of 7 to 10 million successfully hatched fry. A reasonable percentage of survival is anywhere from 3 to 5 %. At 10 mill that anywhere from 350 to 500k additional adult fish. Now add in the dozens of rivers and streams on the south shore alone not to mention the highly successful North shore tribs and you have a lot of fish. If you think stocking 2 million fish at those same survival rates would produce the fishing we’ve enjoyed the last 10 plus years your kidding yourself. 2 mill stocked fish at a 5% survival rate is 100,000 fish. You think we had this magnificent fishing on just 100k adults from one end of the lake to the other? NFW. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  15. I have information from Those that work at the hatchery and you know who they are. And witnessed the fish in the lower fly zone (many big fish) observing from the bank of the cemetery pool. And I watched many fish pass by in different sections of the river. While chinook are the marquee species on the lake and steelhead for the tribs you know steelhead are being caught in plenty of numbers in the lake as well they should be. Nobody ever said they shouldn’t be caught in the lake, but rather manage them for the long river season Same for salmon. We have natural repo of salmon in every trib and trickle of LO. I’m on dozens of them every spring and see YOY fish in streams I can jump across. Yankee is right makes managing that species much more difficult, but we aren’t going to run out of salmon on LO. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  16. Here’s what’s going to happen. DEC isn’t going to shut down trib fishing for any species at the moment. As of right now if the water stays at 185 on the salmon river they have over 50 days of water with no additional rain events. There are building numbers of adult salmon in the lower fly zone and in the hatchery raceway. Fish are getting to the hatchery (was there last week with DEC checking on numbers of fish that were there) LFZ will be closed to angling till Nov. pretty much three weeks after the usual egg take. This water has thermal relief for these fish so you want them in there. DEC is reviewing alternate plans to collect eggs and milt if necessary. According to DEC biologists creek census from this past year (fall of 2019 through spring of 2020) nearly 70% of salmon caught by trib anglers are being released. Personally I’ve been on the salmon from the lower end to the top for two weeks and I’ve witnessed barely of handful of fish on stringers. Still with three years of cuts and a huge harvest of three and two year olds from the lake coupled with low water conditions we should expect lower returns. Except two of the last three years DEC has found a banner crop of wild salmon hatched in the salmon river. So while fishing may not be as heavily impacted with additional wild fish, those fish don’t necessarily seek the hatchery. Bottom line is this is a 12 month a year fishery all angler groups have a right to fish but trust DEC will make emergency adjustments to get their brood stock. Starting today NYPA will begin pulsing water from the canal to three popular western end tribs that will hopefully spread trib anglers out and create more opportunity to fish besides the Salmon. I was on the Genny this week. The flows are the lowest I’ve ever seen in my 45 years of fishing down there. Hardly any anglers giving it a try. Need lots of water to get all our other tribs fishing. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  17. Five six years ago DEC while seining for Yoy chinooks found the first wild naturally spawned Atlantic Salmon in the Salmon River in probably close to 150 years. Anybody who loves sport fishing should think that’s pretty cool. Now does this mean we are going to have a self sustaining population of AS in the Salmon River? Sadly no. It Will in our life time require management from our fisheries groups. There is no more exciting fish to catch on the open waters of Lake Ontario than Chinook Salmon. And there in lies the only reason necessary to know they’ll never be replaced. But the other species have their place on both the open water and our magnificent tributaries. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  18. Thanks Andy, The issue the way I see it is the misinformation always floating around between AS and PS. Lake Ontario tribs are not as capable of hosting AS in a traditional manor like many of the Michigan and Huron tribs. The AS program is not and has never intended to be in competition with PS. They are in a nitch all their own. They were never meant to be a staple species on the lake but rather an opportunity on our tribs. Especially in summer and fall fishing. Yet traditional lake anglers can catch them as well. We do have a handful of rivers that can sustain and support these fish. But conditions have to align with habitat improvements. And they actually are starting to come together. Many seem to be threatened by this program with respects to taking something away from the PS. The Feds are doing all the heavy lifting on AS with support from DEC. As far as the PS being replaced by another species, It never has or ever will unless we have complete forage crash of our alewife population which In my experience of now 50 years fishing LO and its tribs, will never happen as it did in the upper lakes. I say that because In my opinion our DEC has their focus aligned to support the alewife forage base. They stick to what the science tells them about the health of the bait fish population. Thus they haven’t let the forage topple over. There is some pain in those management decisions but as the forage bounces back and it already might have and I believe will... the stocking numbers of PS will also return to target numbers. The more diverse the fishery the better in my opinion. Overall we have the environment that can support all. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  19. The atlantics in the St Mary’s running into Huron feed on Smelt, huge caddis and Hex hatches. And they grow into the 20 pound ranges. They’ll feed on different shiners as well. I’ve visited the Hatchery at LSSU. Roger Griel the biologist and professor took 15 years to find a strain of AS that would imprint and return to his hatchery. They are a tricky fish to raise in captivity. While the LO program has gone on for many years it’s been about the last 6/7 that DEC, USGS, and USF&W have gotten their scientists working in conjunction of a program. As we speak this week USF&W and DEC are floating the Salmon River. They are investigating thermal zones of colder water in the Salmon. There are several. There has been several stream habitat projects on the Salmon the last few years directed by USF&W. When they locate and mark these thermal relief sites even in the dead of summer, it may provide opportunity to do some rehab work to create solid holding areas for AS. You have to understand while AS enter the SR as early as April and May, they don’t spawn till Oct/Nov. And King, Coho salmon and steelhead would also benefit especially the early runners while the water is still too warm could also Seek these thermal refuge areas and not die before they spawn or reach the hatchery. Just so I don’t confuse anyone. All our State raised AS for the finger lakes and LO come from our Adirondack hatchery. Altmar does not handle these fish from the egg stage. And then the Cornell USGS program at Tunison. Anyway Instead of having a big slug of fish up near the hatchery in a large spring fed thermal zone. They’re Looking to spread the fish out and truly create a better summer fishery. They already host a wonderful summer brown trout fishery. Like I said three Govt groups doing the science to provide another option for anglers year round. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  20. Not sure what they are doing at UM on the landlock program. The 5 Star program is at Lake Superior State University (LSSU). Check out their site and live camera in the St Mary’s. They are getting returns in the several 1000’s. But the St Marys which is the river that drains Lake Superior generally has cold water throughout the summer which creates favorable habitat for returns. UM is probably heading the salmon program that has created a late summer fall and spring fishery on the PM and other noteworthy Michigan rivers. NYS only stocks 60k AS. They do get additional fish from Tunison at Cornell. These fish are still being studied for best results according to strains stocked. There are several that have been tried. Including DEC and USGS capturing returning males and females in the Salmon And trucking them to Tunison to spawn. Thus starting to stock fish who are descendants of adults that returned to the Salmon. Last week DEC put a camera in a thermal relief area of the salmon and found a few hundred salmon. Trib creel results from Oak Orchard from Sept last year through April this year resulted in reports of over 2,500 AS caught. I caught many both bright and spawning colored up hook jawed fish that put on spectacular shows on a rod and reel in the fall through the dead of winter. Is the program going to rival the pacific fishery, no and that’s not the goal. With our limited habitat on the south shore rivers the goal is to try and create a river fishery on the few rivers that can support them. There are four of five in that category. They are icing on the cake for the lake fishery. They aren’t the same fighter being pulled on behind a trolling boat IMHO. But they will show you why they are considered one of the greatest game fish around the world when caught in a river. In essence they are trying (and are having success) to create another sport fishing option. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  21. For a few years I ran a big corporate charter group out of the Westinghouse factory In Pittsburgh. We had 100 guys come in on two trailway busses. I had 25 Charter Captains work that gig and we even held a big fish tournament. Joe was always one of the boats that participated and was always eager to help with the details. After awhile Joe took that group over and they continued to come up and enjoy LO. RIP Capt. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  22. My biggest on the lake many years ago was 16 pounds caught right in front of the Oak during the Spring ESLO. My biggest in a river was also in that 15/16 pound range on the Salmon River three years ago on May 1. Land locks are only stocked in two places these days. The Salmon River, and Oak Orchard. Creel Census data from this years trib study points to over 2k caught from fall of 2019 to today on the Oak alone. Now what that means that a good number of Salmon were in the Oak and caught several times. Last month I caught three in one outing, with two of them post spawn and over 25 inches. And I would agree they are a whole different sporting experience caught on a rod and reel in a river VS being pulled in from a moving boat. Water temp last month on the day I caught those fish was 34 degrees and they were five feet in the air several times. Caught one a couple years ago in the Genny that jumped 14 times. And why they are considered the greatest river sport fish anyway around the world. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  23. Gamblers right. With this years stocking numbers they are trying to maximize survival and if their studies are correct which I’ve always believed that we are catching salmon stocked from many different sites, this could minimize a down turn in catch success. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  24. Yeah I get the disappointment. When on the lake I fish out of Sandy Creek more than any other. Sandy is probably the busiest port of all smaller sites when you add up both the lake and trib effort for salmon and trout. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  25. So the stakeholder panel met with DEC on 2/12. Anyone else in the room keep me honest if I miss something. Only stocking the 835k fish this year. DEC put up several charts on years of study results taken from creel study’s wire tag results etc that showed no matter where salmon were stocked they wandered the entire lake and salmon didn’t hang near their ports of stocking either pen or direct stocked. Wire tags tell where fish are stocked. And caught. And they had catch rate records (pie charts) with a break down of fish caught from extreme west to extreme East in the open waters of Lake Ontario. Example: The charts showed that fish stocked in the west were caught from one end of the lake to the other. Next they produced more studies from Dr Mike Connerton on salmon straying from pen or direct stocked locations and the results are straying was minimal. Jana Lantry from region 6 and other biologists at DEC have done studies that there was greater survival of stocked fish when they were stocked in larger mass numbers wise VS split up into smaller pods. Results of these strategies and studies brought three options to the table to the stakeholder panel. Two of the options were similar. Which cuts out the smaller ports and moves all of stocking to the ports listed above. All in net pens to achieve the best survival and returns to that port to spawn. We the stakeholders were asked to vote on the options. The majority voted for option one that put the ports mentioned in play. Can only speak for myself but I was in the majority on the vote. My reason was in this significant stocking cut, survival of the reduced number to adult stage was paramount. I do believe the data that states salmon are caught all over the lake and the stocking site didn’t impact the overall open water success and if studies are correct that larger groups of fish survive better rather than broken up in smaller groups we might see much improved staging fishing off the larger ports that will be this years stocking sites. Disappointing for the sites cut out, but in the interim if this stocking strategy maintains the over all fishing success it will be worth it. DEC is trying to architect the best solution for success during this cut down in stocking situation. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
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