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King Davy

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  1. Vince....not sure what the "I found a home in the fly fishing community" has to do with a Focus discussion on the health of the trout fishing in the LO tribs. The only mention of a fishing technique in this meeting was that bait is more effective than artificial lures, or flies. I don't think anybody would challenge that. I learned to fly fish at age 14 on rivers in the state of GA. no less. And I did use fly fishing in my charter business when we caught steelhead on dry flies in 400-600 feet of water late spring early summers. But the attendees back trolled plugs, float fished, spin fished and fly fished. So this wasn't a fly fishing meeting. Late 2016 DEC commissioner received from what I've heard over a 1000 emails and hand written letters from disgruntled Trib anglers who had visited NYS to trib fish over the last couple years ...and decided to hold a trib focused discussion with DEC USGS/Sea Grant. These letters were from several states as far away as Colorado and Montana of anglers who annually come to our tribs. And I assume since the Commissioner asked Steve to put this focus discussion together may have been worried about lost revenue as well as news getting around that NYS wasn't a key destination for Steelhead and brown trout anymore. . And what they heard was in the last three years some business admitted to having revenue down as high as 25%. One river guide stated that where his customers used to book multiple days, recently they haven't and have canceled the following days trips due to poor fishing, Vince you and I are on the same page when it comes to the heartbreaking treatment that our fish get in a river by a band of folks who intend to use any means to harvest fish. This behavior ruins the experience for people trying to have a quality day fishing on one of our beautiful rivers. And you and I have both listened to the frustration of CO's who write 100's of tickets only to have most of them thrown out of court. And it is stealing. Heck this band of bad guys caught at 18 Mile were selling salmon on Facebook. So after three very poor years of fishing the trrib focused anglers became the squeaky wheel,
  2. Well Gill interesting enough we did ask if there had been any stomach studies of steelhead to where something that was in their diet previously (before 2013) that was now missing that may have contributed to faster breakdown of thiaminase that was no longer in their diets....and no those types of studies have not been done. Often it isn't one thing that topples something.
  3. Well Brian...I received a note from Lapan on 1/18 asking me to help put this together for a trib conversation. I just went through every email I received from 1/18 to 2/11...and I don't have any from a person asking to attend that as a Charter boat Capt. and not a trib angler....or even a trib angler that got turned away. So I'd be happy to talk to those folks that got turned away...and you have my contact info...so feel free to pass them along. This wasn't a conversation about the entire lake...it was focused on the tribs as requested by DEC. Maybe you should call Steve and complain to him as well. Don't know what else to tell ya sport.
  4. Well I saved all my notes...so who contacted me? Message me with their names and emails....as I have them all.
  5. We all should be paying attention to the proposed Federal budget cuts. From $300M to $10M could lose the lamprey program...and then it won't matter what the States put in the lake. The Atlantic Salmon and lake trout programs will go belly up for sure...no lamprey control, and Kings, browns and steelhead will be pure candy for lampreys..
  6. Yeah Gambler.....we are going to have a world class Atlantic Salmon fishery with 60K yearlings and 150K fry a year. Get real. While I've caught some dandy's on the LO tribs...I take that Game to Labrador.
  7. Laughing I don't know who Tall Tails is...And I'm sure he doesn't have my personal contact info. The meeting was to get input from people who fish the tribs on a regular basis as a rec angler, or who run a business from the trib fishery. I guess I'll say...if the DEC asks Lake Anglers to meet to discuss issues just on the lake...I promise not to be offended, or accuse anybody of any wrong doing when not invited. My feelings won't be hurt. .
  8. As a member of the International Stakeholder Committee Steve approached myself and Ron from Orleans Co. to reach out to known businesses, rec anglers and trib groups to invite. We did just that. Tom Burke was invited, Kevin Davis, and the head of the Oswego Co. River Guides association Steve Kowalski. As well as some pro guides from region 8 and 9. Tom stayed in touch on all the conversations with me personally, but at the last minute had a conflict, Kevin was away, and Steve was there. I know all three run boats on the lake. They were invited not because they are Charter Boat Capt's, but run river trips. I have never met Tom or Steve, I was going on information provided us on resources from that area. We put this together in a matter of days due to scheduling issues for DEC and some of the folks who traveled in the winter to Altmar from as many as three hours away. I represented Trout Unlimited and my NYS Guide wife agreed to handle the secretary duties. And capture everyone's input. Anything else you need to know know?
  9. Shady move.???...we got invited. We got invited because through Scott's study there was some alarming changes to results from the earlier studies. We didn't invite all the regional managers and Steve Hurst. And the results of the meeting were offered to all at the SOTL meetings. Hopefully you took the time to pick them up and read them. Everybody has to take this Clandestine, Agenda laden junk out of play. Many of us have been involved with working with DEC, MNR and USGS for decades to provide input on what we experience in the LO fishery, both in open water and in rivers and streams. Most of it is valuable insight. Are there those that have stronger personal feelings on all of this and are willing to express it.....I think we see that in this forum from the entire watershed. But where has any radical outliers forged huge management changes from DEC? Again stop making this personal...We (and we should be thankful) are being asked for our input on a regular basis from DEC USGS and MNR on all environments of this fishery. We are further down the road in a true partnership with these Science organizations than ever before,
  10. Well....the Steelhead situation has been affected in Canada. We have trib stakeholders on the International group. Many of the natal streams on the North shore are way down with recruited fish. The Ganny that used to get close to 20K fish above the fish ladder has barely seen 4K fish the past three years. Bowmenville, Wilmont, and Duffins which normally has thousands of fish in the closed section had hardly any as of Early Jan, when the trib groups who have a massive organization and are actually involved in rearing fish, and helping MNR did a walk through to look for spawners. So honestly both wild and hatchery fish appear to be struggling They are working on a 1 fish creel limit like we have for the North shore. Andy Todd didn't share any information on tribs. We should ask for his data.
  11. Yes we've heard these thoughts. I've personally told them, as have many other Trib anglers have, this is not a realistic solution. We've managed both species for 40 years. What the majority of trib folks are seeking is not even more fish....just trying and keep the ones we have. There are several management options to do just that...that has no baring on stopping Pacific Salmon stocking. And neither DEC or MNR is considering any changes to the species line up. We are hoping to get the old Watershed wide Stakeholders meetings started up again. Something Steve LaPan is looking into. We all need to be at the same table. .
  12. Yeah....as I stated to DEC and MNR...make the use of brown trout eggs illegal to use, and hammer the offenders with huge fines and loss of tackle....and it will eventually stop. Problem is we need to also take this up with our legislators as fines are way to light..... I spend a lot of time in Alaska...you pull this crap there...you're going to Jail.
  13. On Feb 11 a group of 20 Trib Stakeholders were invited to meet with DEC at Altmar to discus now three years of poor Steelhead, and in some cases Brown trout fishing on the LO trib waterfront. Fishery Managers from all Lake Shore regions attended as well as the Bureau Chief of Fisheries for NYS Steve Hurst. The 20 Stakeholders consisted Rec anglers, Professional Guides, and a diverse group of business owners, from Tackle Shops to Lodges. This meeting was also attended by members of Trout Unlimited Seth Green Chapter, and Tug Hill, and LOTAC. Each Stakeholder was given an opportunity to provide their input on the state of the trib fishery. We covered a host of subjects, from angler success, angler access, law enforcement, and some provided thoughts around future management initiatives. We collected everyone's thoughts and published (Seth Green TU) the notes that were on hand at each State Of the Lake Meeting. Hopefully people picked them up. And then DEC made two presentations, Scott Prindel's trib Creel Census lake wide survey done 2015-2016, and the Boat census survey. What appears to be Key in the results is both in the tribs's and the lake steelhead catches were way down. Some may say they don't fish for them, but we all know they are normally available while fishing for Silvers in the mid to deep lake regions. I think if we look at past boat creels we've never seen Steelhead come in 4th place as a species caught on the Lake as they did in 2016. And for those that fish the tribs on a regular basis to where the fish are either there or they are not, it's evident a class of fish are missing. Most likely due to the die off in 2014, and further pressure from the very cold winter of 2015. What is interesting is the dwindling numbers of brown trout trib anglers have encountered the last couple years especially in the Western tribs where they are more prevalent. Trib angler hours for the past several years have exceeded the open water effort, but for most of us, this can't be an us VS them. Those that have been on panels with me and many of my colleagues we are looking for a year long managed fishery where both Trib and Lake Anglers have decent opportunity. What the trib angler faces for a full four months of their season is only targeting one species. Migratory Rainbows. When they aren't there it's now affecting many businesses that rely on angler success to be profitable, and why after three tough years this situation is being brought to the forefront. On King Salmon. Unfortunately they aren't a great sport fish for true trib anglers. Unless they are contacted within the first few days of their migratory runs they are difficult to catch with "Legal" methods. And there in lies the biggest problem. Most are aware of the Skullduggery that goes on in pursuit of Kings in tribs. So many breaking the law ...too few CO's and worse, penalties for law breakers are a slap on the wrist at best. However these visitors to our tribs are not true trib anglers. It's evident viewing them they don't possess legal angling presentation skills and are looking to get a bend in a rod anyway they can. And many don't want to learn. They are biding their time before hunting seasons begin. Despite the many DEC regulations to curb these activities, they still exist in mass and cause all kinds of social problems for these trib environments. Serious trib anglers show up in mass as soon as these folks leave due to the Salmon finally expiring. I'm making general statements here but not as to include everybody, but for most trib anglers we don't have the same expectations on the number of fish we catch a day for the time we put in. Our only goal is to fish to fish, which is the same goal of all anglers tribs and open water. The last three years we've fished to fewer fish then ever before. We are looking at many management studies as the Steelhead is a top end trophy fish from Here to Alaska. For instance we are asking that tagging is done on Steelhead after the Coho program in combination with hatchery direct stock and pen reared fish. We should understand with much better data how effective pen reared steelhead is on returns to pen sites. While there are some who don't like King Salmon, we've explained that while Kings are the targeted species on the lake. The Steelhead is the trophy species for the trib fishery. And I'm sure management of the entire fishery and both these species will continue. To be a true world fishery we need to maintain the angler efforts year round.
  14. I'm a privy to the Spring Seining projects on the Salmon River. The 2016 results are the highest success rate of hatched out fry EVER recorded. Fran Verdoliva and Dan Bishop start this process in late April and run it down river to the mouth of the river until early June. Last year we had perfect conditions for spawning, Base Flows were consistent throughout the winter when these eggs hatch( Jan early Feb) . The base flows were kept to standard throughout the spring allowing this huge hatch to matriculate it's way to the open waters of LO. Of course in the open waters environment it's all on them to survive. So while we have a stocking reduction, we had the very best success of wild fish reproduction. High Water events are much more harmful to this success washing out Reds then lower stable flows. I know that DEC CO's have been alerted due to low water conditions to where more "bad things" happen with anglers...to have a strong presence on the Salmon River. I was there last night. My impression is DEC presented their case very well. The other thing I think I witnessed that many in the audience heard about data USGS and DEC is collecting that many stakeholders were unaware of. And they even talked about future studies they are doing, and many of them relate to the health and the understanding of King Salmon traits in LO. The banter was fun and interesting not condescending and for me was one very best meetings I've attended. I believe they know the science and are following their management processes to include what False positives they might encounter.
  15. Everybody has their own preference. I love catching King Salmon in the open waters , not so much in a trib. Totally different fish. Just as Atlantic Salmon are truly a better river fish than open water caught IMHO. To say Salmo Salar isn't the fighter a King is....means you haven't caught one on a swung fly in a big river, where they have just as much (actually MORE speed) than Pacific Salmon, and I've had them leap as high as many Tarpon I've hooked. Couple that with the one thing Pacific Salmon don't possess. A super sense of curiosity to where they will raise from 10 feet down, swirl and bump your fly to where it becomes a true cat and mouse game of finding a fly they will come to play with. They may crush that fly, or sip it like a 12 inch trout. Once you sink the Iron the experience of how they react will have you talking to yourself. Probably not fair to compare a fish that the boat hooks and is fought by a moving boat, VS a 1 on 1 session with a different wonderful game fish where the hunt, the take, and the fight is very up close and personal. Love em both, just in different environments. On the reduction it's so minimal. Remember the drought of 2007. DEC only recovered and stocked in the spring of 2008 less than 800K Kings. Go look at the Creel census for 2011, 2012. Record catches of adult fish....and returns to the hatchery. I'd be more inclined that if we make such a fuss about a minimal reduction, WE the stakeholders are sending the message to others that the fishing will be off. When most probably unless confined by weather like 14,15...it won't be.
  16. I see you had my friends out, They contacted me later and said my recommendation was spot on. Thanks for showing Mark, Deb and the boys a great time.
  17. Could be the mixture o2 to fuel. Is it on a stand alone tank? Some times the O rings at the tank no longer have a perfect seal or a leak in the air side of the fuel hose to the motor. That's the same symptoms I've experienced with kicker motors. If it's fuel fed from the main tank again check the fuel line and connections to the tank.
  18. Had a feeling you knew Kelso. We must have shared water at some point. Kelso is the guide star for Lindsay women's seminars up on the river each summer. All the girls LOVE jimmy
  19. Rich yes behind the hatchery. The vets bunk at the DEC CO barracks right there at 2A. Friday night is intro' of the teams and then Linds and I Jimmy Kelso and others partner up with a soldier and teach them flies we'll fish with. Dinner at the CO headquarters. Sat 0700 hours chow at the barracks then off to the river. 10th mountain puts up a tent on the bank of the river with heat and snacks and drinks. We've had cadets from West Point come to observe and many others. VFW puts on a dinner SAT night and then we do it again on Sunday. We have a couple drift boats that are DEC rigs to handle vets with physical limitations. Last year we had two young kids amputees. Super guys and they both caught some of these wonderful fish. I'm sure many of you who have been involved in these types of events you know how emotional it can get. I've been doing this for a long time and have made lasting friendships with these guys. Linds and I run a fly fishing school for wounded vets here in Rochester for OASIS Adaptive sports. Google it really great org. We do a March thru July program with five vets. I have a lady Navy vet we've been working with. This lady can flat out fish. Can't wait to get her up on this event. She beat all the boys on a accuracy casting competition. Sorry for getting off topic guys. Just truly love this program.
  20. Thanks Vince....it was a very special weekend. In two weeks we do the annual PHW event up there. The past five years we've had a nice slug of silver steelhead where we get to fish the Vets. This year we'll guide 12 to 14 hero's. Salmon season should be over, with plenty of carcasses, and good numbers of fresh steel chomping on eggs and flesh. We'll see what this year brings.
  21. The DSR is the fist 2.5 miles of 11 miles of fish able water. After the event we had yesterday I went up to the trestle then Ellis and finally the fly zone. Lots of bent rods. The DSR is transition water. Only a few big pools for fish to rest. And the reason they fly through there and head up. Fish have been moving at night. Saying that the fishing is totally off because of the DSR reports is like saying if the fishing is slow on the east end of the lake the entire lake is off. If we are going that way the fishing is bad every year. And lastly the DSR cut the daily limit of anglers in half. Lot less people fishing it per day then all the past years. I can only report on what I see and how I'm doing. Get out of your chairs and get on a river. A lot of arm chair qb's eh?
  22. Gambler.....The fish ran late last year as well. I fished to salmon at Christmas. I'm not debating the number of fish...I'm stating that there is plenty of presence of fish where I'm fishing. The fish didn't run in August, I can name you many more years they didn't run in August then when they did. The last few years we saw "significant" runs in August, The fish I saw yesterday ...if they ran in August would be dead by now, and maybe never have contributed to the new generation of Salmon. I'm telling you there is a big impressive class of fish in the upper river. I have no agenda to make this stuff up....however it's simply my observation, but man these were crazy beautiful animals. Folks....even if the DEC decides to put more Salmon in for what ever reasons they may find it difficult to do so with the carrying capacity of room left. But one hurdle that will get over is the simple fact that they will get all their eggs... And these fish look very healthy. The hens are just pure egg wagons. Is there EVER a day when the Sky is NOT falling around here? Yes I'm just one guy that has logged about 14 days on the water since Mid Sept. Before that I was catching a$$ kicking bass and tuna on the sound. I don't chase these fish until now, because I hope to have some diversity with some Steelhead and Brown trout around...and BTW they are as well. What can I tell you...the 14 days that I fished for trout and Salmon ...I was always fishing to fish. I can't say anything else. I've had years with the "Banner" runs where I didn't happen to be where the fish were. This year where ever I've gone I have plenty of targets to swing at. Two years ago when the fish ran in August and I went there first of Oct...I had no salmon to fish to...they were all up river. Guess what I had banner years fishing for Salmon in the salmon in the mid 90's when they only put in 1M, and nobody caught them on the lake. I don't know....just fish.
  23. Gill I was away up on the river fishing with 14 very brave women recovering from Breast Cancer who were looking to learn to fly fish as part of the CFR project my wife Lindsay was leading. That the DSR kindly supplied the space, and infrastructure and logistics to accommodate these wonderful ladies. So I didn't get your message. Yesterday after the event was over I had a chance to go up river and see what was happening. I'd say from Pineville up there were plenty of Salmon present, but from Ellis Cove up there were lots of fish being "hooked". I walked the Hatchery property. Every holding pen is jammed with Coho's. I guess they counted Coho heads and have a number of 3500 to start spawning today if they are loose. The brook leading into the hatchery has salmon in every inch of it, the raceways that are four feet deep, have salmon in every inch of it, and way more impressive, is I had the opportunity to visit the back of the hatchery property, which is about a quarter mile long and it is virtually completely black with Salmon which are spawning naturally. I won't guess how many fish are on the property because no matter what number I come up with it will be challenged. All I can say is that there is as many fish there as I've ever seen. Does that mean there is as many as three years ago in the entire river, I would have no way of knowing....would you? Until DEC does their carcass and red count will they be able to put a number on if the run to this river is up, down, or relatively the same. I'll be on the Genny this week. A guide I know who works there is having a very good year. Two weeks ago I saw fish boiling everywhere. To my knowledge DEC doesn't do body counts there. I stopped at Oswego on the way home, and saw fish from the Dam down. And people fishing for them. Looking at pics on Kevin Davis's site looks like they are doing well. One would have to ask him what he thinks. Were they late??? for sure. Is there good fishable numbers...it appears so. Is it the same as three years ago...who knows. I wouldn't think any numbers would be as good as three years ago with two way off climates the last 24 months. But is the fishery viable to continue the fall sport fishing...it appears so. The big board at the hatchery had the egg take count at a full 2.5 million and change. What was a very interesting number is the eggs per hen....at just under 5,000, which according to the biologist I talked to that is taking eggs is a very nice high average. Not sure it is an all time high, but they considered it a marker to say these lady salmon were in good shape. After the Coho egg take, they'll switch back to kings. I believe their target is again a little over 4 million, and Gill one thing I will state my bank account on...is they will have no trouble in making that number. The fresh in fish in the raceways were simply impressive. Big big hens saw many easily in the high 20's and low 30's only five feet from me. All the fish I was able to get a close look at were beautiful full bodies specimens. The only positive news I can 100% relate is the fact that DEC will again capture the brood stock to continue the stocking program. On the DSR lots of fish spawning there. To Rich's point doesn't matter what I think, wait to hear what the DEC's final results of studies are. But if I was intent on catching King Salmon this fall, I don't see that I couldn't go to any of the major tibs I fish, and not find plenty to fish for. Finally ...and I know you know this....but at 350 to 450 CFS the Salmon giggers don't get shots at them as easily which is a beautiful thing. And these fish are moving under the cover of darkness as well. Look back at the "Banner year reports" from two years ago, when the avg CFS in the fall was 100 to 185, and the fish can't hide. Was interesting to stand next to the Salmon Crews staring at thousands of salmon in the Hatchery grounds and not believing their eyes that THAT many fish ran by them. That's all I got. And stop beating the dead DSR horse....it's boring. As long as they continue to host Breast Cancer and Wounded Warrior Events that we run....I'm good with them.
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