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King Davy

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  1. The "Most" important factor of the Base Flow treaty that went into effect in the Mid 90's was to recreate the natural reproduction of aquatic insect life on the Salmon river. Up to that point only running the river on weekends had all but eliminated billions of natural food snacks for fishes in the system. Today as a true tail water fishery the bug life on the salmon river is second to none. Two weeks ago I was fishing in the middle of one of the greatest most legendary hatches in the history of rivers. The "White Fly hatch" Would never be possible without the base flows. Hey but who cares about some fly hatch. Of the many hatches that now occur on the SR the White Fly in it's size 14 and 12 (us fly swatters will understand this)....in it's nymph stage is like eating a four pound cheese burger chased with ham and a friend egg on top. Wild Trout and Salmon that are successfully hatched in this system by the millions must have these aquatic insects to feed on to even have a chance at becoming par, smolting and trying to leave the watershed into the open lake. DEC and the Feds have been seining the river for over 15 years each May and early June to determine the number of fingerlings that have hatched. We've all seen the large numbers from this effort . Normally anywhere between a 5 to 10 million successful hatched. However that has no baring on how many of those tiny inch long fish survive to the adult stage and return to the river. Yes the clip study produced percentage of Wild VS stocked but that can't estimate how many of all year classes of salmon are actually swimming around as returning adults. I was at the Hatchery yesterday. On the board in the lobby is the egg take from last fall through what was taken this spring. DEC extracted some 4.2 million king salmon eggs. They delivered 2.1 M hatched salmon to the lake either through pens or direct stock. We have known forever that harsh winters slow down the growth of all species in these hatchery's. So in winters like the last two, one could easily debate the size of the fish weren't as hearty as other years. And if you talked to DEC they could have easily held Salmon longer in the Hatchery (and in fact they did...I'll explain). BUT, for the pen programs if they didn't get them out there in April, NONE of those fish would have imprinted from the pens, and then the stakeholders wouldn't have been happy either. My wife Lindsay is a licensed NYS River guide who runs a women's fly fishing seminar on the Salmon River every Spring/summer at the hatchery. This year was May 16 and 17. And all the direct stock fish were being held through that weekend ,....much longer then normal to get them up to size from the worst winter we've had in 100 years. One thing we have to stop assuming is that DEC just grows fish and dumps them in robotically and uncaring or unaware of what the results will be. I have helped or witnessed the seining. The six week program starts up nearest the hatchery and works it's way down river to the estuary with the strategy that the fish are working their way to the lake as they migrate out. And the process is to see how they are making their way. Again what you will see at the SOTL is last years results were spectacular. Might have been, or near a record hatch. WHAT? Ask anybody last year was a horrible year for river anglers targeting salmon. Yet those that came in were obviously very successful. These little fish were everywhere. Early fish....there have always been early fish, even before the treaty. In fact while there were early fish, the heart of the run was Oct. to Nov, and in fact the snagging regs back in the 70's 80's and 90's had the date of snagging out till Nov 15....for a reason. Because there were fish in the system that late. Last year fish came in later , I think the same will happen again. Layman's take on that is when fish are scattered in every corner of the lake from a wild summer of winds current and temp, it's logical it takes them longer to find home. Before the treaty.... river only plumed out into the lake a couple days a week. River bank was nearly dry all summer during the week. Now base flows...depending on weather like the 2.5 inches of rain they had last week, flows increase attract fish in warmer water, OK but it doesn't take many fish to collect 4.2 million eggs. It's highly conceivable that survival of wild and stocked fish aren't surviving as well for probably many reasons. And usually it is "Many" reasons. One would need a root cause analysis....and we'd probably discover many factors. Some controllable ...some not. For instance, we have an overbearing population of Gobies in the lakes AND rivers. They have no problem eating the heck out of a 1 inch salmon. They could be a factor. HOT warm summer and fish arriving early that won't live to spawn ...a factor...but we can't control that. These fish have evolved both stocked and wild. Before clipping I was sure the early runners were wild fish...simply because they are much more adaptable after being born in the rivers environment. I know long winded again....Like it or not, revenue or not...the Salmon River is a natural resource that any and all have the right to enjoy. So a bunch of kids with coolers full of beer and mom and dad and the kids four weekends a summer (that's all there is) have a right to have a day. And not just one day. The treaty has to include others or frankly there would be no treaty ...no treaty no base flow, no food for the baby fish, no wild adult salmon. And on severe drought summers they have canceled releases. The one for two week ago was slated for three full days at 750. They only ran it for two. oh and there is this one other little matter...especially in a hot summer, when people are running a ton of electricity ....Brookfield is a power company they are in business to generate power, to be in business. They move water to create power. If you equate the factors at the time that decisions are made on how to handle each stocking season, you will run into unavoidable circumstances out of your control that makes you...make a different decision. That's man VS nature. The hatchery debate will always come down to MONEY and Government and laws. High hurdle....need a strong intelligent professional lobbying group that is working in Albany every day. Why??? cause you have to get into the brain, heart and wallet of each and every elected official to tip the scales in your favor. Most folks on this board don't have that kind of time, or skill set. You can pay to get those folks.....so all the clubs and pro associations would have to pony up.
  2. Well Rich, the feds have been trying to revive lake trout to native sustainable status in the Great lakes including Ontario since the late 1950's when the Great lakes Fishery Commission got started with the Charter to turn things around from the polluted waste lands that the GL's had become and improve the habitat to where lake Trout and Atlantic Salmon would once again swim and be self sustaining. Obviously that hasn't worked out too well. They loaded the lake in the 70's 80's and 90's with 1.5 mill a year, then started backing them down to 1/2 a Mill, had some hatchery issues where most of the allotment didn't get planted, and then fired up the big numbers again...all the while never having enough measurable success in sustaining wild stocks to end stocking. I guess we are going to hear encouraging news on the latest wild repo results, but who knows if they have found a break through. Personally I've never bad mouthed Lake Trout, they are a beautiful fish, and yes they get big out here. Are they fun to catch trolling...not so much, but if people would pull up in open water and jig for them like the Finger Lakes, you'd have a whole new experience, and they would become a much more targeted species. Setting the hook on a 20 pounder in 100 foot of water on a medium action rod, and you are in for a lot of fun...jus sayin'
  3. Rich I enjoy your thoughts on this forum as well. 1) I was in all those meetings with DEC when they announced the reduction in King Salmon stocking but I'm not sure what they offered up as a place holder. We can get that info from DEC. For what ever reason, I think back then the Steelhead stocking number was around 550K, and the carrot was increasing that number to 750K, because Steelhead have a more diverse diet and it was felt would have less impact on the lower bait fish populations. Maybe Vince or others who were in the room remember better. Like I said we can call Dan Bishop or others and find out. Thing with steelhead and Coho salmon they take up space in a hatchery for 12 to 18 months. 2)USGS and the Great Lakes Fishery Commission are all about native species, and their return as a self sustaining species. I've heard through the grapevine that USGS and DEC have found more wild lake trout in the system this year then ever before. But that's all relative. I don't know what that means until they show the data. The goal is to find a species of LT that thrive in the wild , reproduce naturally, and have a sustainable population. I know they've now found goby's in deeper colder water then what is thought of their normal range, and I'm sure if they swim in front of a LT, they'll get eaten. But the two aren't related. It's all about attaining the feds goal. 3)Bloaters and Ciscos are native species to LO from the White fish family. this again is a USGS program and it's actually an "experiment" to see if they can as well put some in and see if they get natural reproduction. USGS is not intending nor do they have the where-with-all to stock billions of bait fish. This if it ever worked creates more diversity in the forage base. I'm not sure how long the leash is for Dr Jim Johnson and this program. I'm sure USGS offices in all the great lakes is watching this.
  4. Nice then get Steve to buy everybody a brand new hatchery. Last I knew Steve's not the DEC commissioner the NYS finance director or the governor or NYS legislature who probably get to allow Steve to spend his 50 $60 mill but I've know Steve a long time and he can make a strong case if he's got all that cash to wave around. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  5. Ahh Come on Full of BS...I do that in my job ...but talking about fishing. BS is what gets us off on dead end road discussions. Gill...the Hatchery at Altmar cost between 10 and $20 m over 30 years ago. That "nut' today is in the neighborhood of $50 to $75M....or more You...I and Steve knows there isn't that kind of money floating around...but Gill here's an idea, we should sponsor a telethon...we have a better shot at raising that kind of money. Those that know me know I don't care to kill trout and salmon, simply because I don't like to eat them. But I do love to fish for them and return my catch, which ultimately and arguably makes me more dangerous to the health of the fishery because it's on me to keep the fish safe if I intend and am fortunate enough to catch several. And I had to learn a lot of good solid release practices over the years to feel confident that the highest percentage of the time I can execute a safe release. Otherwise I shouldn't be fishing if the bigger picture of being a responsible stakeholder to the overall fishery is my goal. And it is. Spoiled!!! I had many fishermen from the west coast that I used to guide and Charter and all told me the same thing as mentioned before....we are spoiled. The GL fisheries are managed much differently then the west coast. They for the most part hate seeing stocked fish put into a still valid wild fishery. And in many places around the US and the world, where habitat is still viable, fishery managers don't stock fish where wild fish either do, of can thrive. The GL is different. We don't have to apologize if we have a sport fishery that provides a lot of action, but we have to also realize we have a "man made fishery" that can't sustain it's self to that world class standard. So just like any business that produces and maintains it's product there are many many factors both "man made" and natural that can topple it over. And like it or not the finger can't be pointed at just one group or entity on the man made side.
  6. Been watching this all from the bleachers. Wind and weather are always a huge factor on the migration and summer movement of especially King Salmon. But so many other factors are involved. As much as it seems there are a lot of fishermen on the lake, it's nothing like 20 years ago. So less anglers, on scattered fish from the conditions harder to locate, but almost every other post is a group having a tough day, while another group had a good day. And good and bad are all relative. I was told a Guy came into the hatchery the other day, landed five mature kings, a 15 pound Atlantic, and a double digit steelhead in four hours of fishing and complained the fishing sucked. Not meaning to take a shot, but at this time of year...I'd clear the pier heads at 4:30 AM, and I'd never pass up 15 to 30 foot of water for the first 2 hours, and then once the sun was high I'd work my way out, but never deeper then 100 foot of water IF I was targeting migrating fish. I walk the Charlotte pier every weekend, and for the past three weeks I've watched salmon after salmon proposing all over the river mouth and along the west wall....and not a single boat in sight...and that's at 9 AM. Expectations: Salmon will turn on an off like a light switch....and it can happen many times during a 24 hour day. But in the fall that light switch on and off cycle is greatly reduced. Most of these fish are no longer taking nourishment. They can't their stomachs have shriveled up as their metabolism has pushed them into seeking a spawning red. Salmon will never lose that aggressive trigger but it's much tougher to trigger it. Case in point one time in a river, I swung a time tested streamer past at least 2-3 hundred fish as they migrated up the Salmon river, and I never had a single take. Not even a turn on my fly. But I've had days where swinging the same streamer, I've hooked several fish who had to choose to come kill it as I use no weight and swim the fly just as a bait fish would present itself. They are one of the most moodiest fish that swims this time of year. Locations to Troll: As successful as the Pen projects have been, it's been known for a long time that some of those pen reared fish do in fact travel back to the Salmon river. But if not there, tributaries with the best out flows to draw them in. Places like Sodus Bay, while you can catch a horde of fish passing through normally isn't the last stop on their migration. So timing is essential. Timing: All up to the fish. Two years with similar weather patterns. We'll see what happens this fall, but last year, I had fresh spawning kings (dozens) in front of me in small tribs throughout Dec. right through Christmas. In my 40 years of doing this...that is the latest I've ever seen fresh salmon in a river ...in those numbers. How was last year's natural spawn in the SR? When you go to the SOTL meeting next spring, you'll be surprised that the natural hatch was near or at record high levels....WHAT? Everybody complained about the Salmon run last year...but obviously fish were there and were very successful at reproducing. Better Fishermen: ...do we have too many tournaments.. I get it ...they are fun, but you attract the very best top of the line anglers both Pro and Rec to these and over a summer 1000's of fish are vacuumed up. Yeah but natural repo, and stocking must be millions of fish out there. I've never heard of survival to adult stage of any of these species greater then 10%. Most time the estimates are half that. There are way less fish out there then most people envision. May seem like a ton, in a normal year, when most of them all species are penned up on the South shore boundaries.... Anybody having trouble catching lake Trout? Sure there are a lot out there, but they are over the same rock year after year no matter what the weather does. They are not a long range migrator. The avg Pacific species including Steelhead travel up to 15,000 miles a year. If they get scattered like I think everybody who has been fishing all over the place and caught them from 50 foot to 600 foot can attest to, it for sure seems like we've lost a lot of fish. Maybe we have, but I would bet that the avg. 5 to 10% survival of adults is pretty much intact. I'll get a lot of push back on this....but I used to run the junk rods...in the finger lakes in the 60's and LO all my life. I believe they kill fish. 600 Coppers and a 5 pound fish, even released what you think is unharmed, has built up more toxins in their body then against a normal rod and mono line. They won't give up no matter what, but they stress themselves to the point of recovery takes too long and they die. Even big fish that are released can be stressed past survival stage on that heavy tackle. A study just arrived from BC from a team of biologists who were capturing and tagging wild steelhead in those famed rivers, and putting homing devices on them. They get them into the bank. The fish would struggle a bit many times bumping their body and head against a rock. But not acting hurt. They swam back in the river after the gps device was attached like nothing happened. Then the biologists started tracking...but many of the fish weren't moving staying in the same place hours after release. WHY??? cause they were dead. And the only thing they could point to were fish that had banged their bodies on the rocks. They did autopsies on the fish and found extensive brain and internal organ damage. So how do you handle a fish once it's on the deck? Or landed along a river bank. These fish swam away as if they had been just released into the wild for the first time....as if nothing happened. There are so many factors in where the fish are, what mood are they in, if being returned, how they survive the encounter with us. After reading this I can here it now this is a catch and kill fishery. I have no issue if you are going to eat the fish. There are many who either don't care to eat them, but enjoy the sport of catching them. We have to be ultra careful and experienced in handling these fish. But with survival rates probably in the norm, and if you kill your limit every time you have the chance ...or every fish you can legally take, we are going to see a reduced population YOY and the fishing will continue to get tougher. Couple that with any other factor, weather, disease, accidents, sub production because of issues, then that reduction in success is accelerated. WELL STOCK MORE!!! Not that easy. Hatchery capacity and space is needed, that's not available. What are you willing to give up?This is NYS now, not Lake trout, or A salmon those are the Feds programs. And there are a lot of other high use in land fisheries in NYS that have the right to be healthy as well and also have high investment returns. BUILD MORE HATCHEYS!!!! Yeah with what money??? State is dead broke and any available funds will be slated for 100's of other programs before this one...even though there is a significant return on the investment. So these are all valid questions and concerns,. .that by now those of us who've been around a long time understand the mountain of red tape to overcome.....So what can be done??? On us....and not to just complain to the DEC, but sharpen your skills, volunteer for programs like Pen programs, come help us with habitat restoration to create more natural repo in some rivers and tribs that actually do produce. Be sound in handling of fish, make good decisions on truly only keeping what you need. Is there a better tasting fish then a spring two three pound Coho? But If I have 10 in the cooler or freezer do I need number 11,12,or 13. All personal choice, but think about your choice for just a sec. before making it. That 3 pounder will be 12 to 15 pounds next time around. As usual...long winded....sorry for that.
  7. Yeah Paul I didn't see the fish so not including it, but DEC and USGS has in their Spring seining looking for wild Chinnies found cross bred par from the SR. Not sure folks understand, Atlantic Salmon either Landlocks or ocean run fish, spawn in the Oct, Nov time frame, even though they ascend rivers as early as May and June. And so do Brown trout spawn in Oct, and Nov. The other thing to think about in the Sheep and Man fertilization VS fish,.....Fish lay and fertilize eggs out side of their bodies, in the river gravel. Just about any fish with the tools to do so can get involved so to speak. Crazy stuff man.
  8. Not trying to start a debate (because it's not debatable) Google the cross breeding of Atlantic Salmon and brown trout and you'll find studies done in Europe , that proves it happens. Funny just discussed this last weekend....And in fact at a presentation up at the Catskill Fly Fishing museum by DEC, they in fact have seen some cross breeding in their studies in the Salmon river. They've netted some hybrid fish. Not a common occurrence by any means but it has happened.
  9. Hi Joe, sure you can run a boat above Court street. The Sam Patch runs trips on the river above the last set of falls. Can run from there to Mt Morris. The only launch I can think of though is probably where Black Creek empties into the Genny near the Ballantine bridge near Scottsville and Jefferson Rd. Others may know of a launch closer.
  10. To Chris's post I remember those units. In 1972, I took my meager earnings working at the Woolworth Co. and for my Dad's birthday I bought him a Rivera Solid Steel short Arm Downrigger. We had a 1971 Pen Yan Avenger 22 footer. Tri Hull. I think that boat was the only tri hull boat they ever made, with the Tunnel drive. (We owned many Pen Yan's over the years). These also used to be a Heath kit store on Jefferson Rd in Henrietta (Rochester). Dad and I had bought and built a Depth finder with one of those kits. Reading in magazine in the early 70's we started to understand Salmonids had preferred temperatures. So back to the Heath kit store to purchase their handheld temp gauge. We'd drop the probe over the side, marked the footage on the cable and would pick best temps for these fish. The very first trout or salmon we caught on a downrigger trolling off Rosey's Marsh just West of Braddocks , I had a rod down about 40 feet hoping to catch anything, but targeting brown trout. dad's taking a leak over the side of the boat and the rod pops. I had never seen a rod pop on a rigger before....caught plenty of fish in the spring long lining, but now we had a RELEASE...and Got to Yell...FISH ON! I wanted Dad to get this first fish on his new downrigger, we were puling a yellow Manistee Spoon (remember them?). Dad fumbles to put his short rod away to grab the bucking fishing rod, and he's tight to the fish. Our of the deep green water of the day comes this June colored up Brown trout in that seven eight pound range...I mean this fish was magnificent. The smile on my fathers face was priceless....He swings the fish in...and I KNOCKED IT OFF WITH THE NET!!!!! Oh my GOD I was ready to kill myself....here it was fish number one on the little Blue steel downrigger, and I booted the netting job. I felt about two inches tall....but as my dad always was....he just laughed patted me on the back and we kept fishing.
  11. In the late 60's early 70's my best Buddy Dan and I would go fishing every single day after we delivered over 100 papers a day on our route. Most times we'd hit the Braddocks bay ponds, and especially Russell Station out flow. In 1971, we were tossing Roster Tail spinners in the flow wading in ...in our cloths. We used to just clobber the Silver Bass and White Perch on these spinners. All of a sudden Dan hooks this bright silver fish that explodes out of the water over and over. We never heard our drags on our cheap Zebco reels ever chirp, but his was doing that "Zat Zat Zat" those old reels did with their drags. He beached the fish, about a six seven pound beauty. Of course we knew it was some sort of Salmon but had never seen one before. Turns out it was a beautiful Coho. Mid 70's fishing out of a Classic 21 foot Lyman wood boat on the Flats just east of Oak Orchard, I landed my first King Salmon (24 pounds) on a Sutton 88 spoon. I got my USCG license in Fall of 1980, and guided on the lake through 2000. Late 70's and 80's were wonderful fishing, and then things got interesting and challenging in the Mid to late 90's. I was off to many other adventures in the Salt and fresh water on wonderful bucket list rivers oceans and lakes around North and South America since then. I get to fish on LO once in awhile and have mostly missed the resurgence of the Salmon fishing we've had for the most part in the 2000's. Of all the places I've been fortunate to fish, I can say we still have the greatest fishing in our back year for pure opportunity to catch world class fish 12 months a year.
  12. If your boat is in the water, no issue. If your boat is on a trailer, run an extension cord into the boat and connect a 40 watt light bulb, and hang it in the engine compartment. Or you can use a dipstick heater. But getting down to 30 degrees it really won't freeze.
  13. if fines are harsh, you get a higher percentage of folks thinking twice. And yes the judge would have to make an example or two out of a few cases to get everyone's attention if the penalty's were tougher. Jail time in the tougher states on hunting and Fishing crime usually results in repeat offenders or out right slaughter of the resources fish or game. My point was that someone shop lifting can be subject to a jail sentence. I would assume most that get one are probably repeat offenders unless it was "Grand Larceny" So is snagging a fish going to get you jail time or hand raping a brown trout for eggs. No. But if caught ...let me take your gear from you, and give it to some kid in a program for underprivileged kids. Or let me take your shiny new tackle/fly box and pretty rod to a children's ward in a hospital and give it to them. How do you do this: It's not an easy process and takes time and dedication. You need to start by being loaded down with facts. Each township normally collects data on the positive monetary impact of tourism in their town or county. Take Orleans co. for example. They can show that this little community takes in millions of dollars in sport fishing year round. You need to know those numbers and they have to be accurate. Get the data on the number of tickets written by law enforcement and the number of convictions. Get thousands of people who've signed a petition that live or visit that town or county that they are sick and tired of the lawless activities going on, and are considering not coming back ever again. Rather take their hard earned dollars and going some place else. Also good to tie the fact that many people who come here to boat fish either with their own boats or with Charters ALSO come back to fish the tribs. Repeat customers is the foundation of your tourism economy (Google Disney) , and with the ability to attract new... But lawlessness is a deterrent to that. Then you have to take these legislators out for some ride alongs. Show them the skullduggery going on in their counties. When they see the conviction rates VS the number of offenders sent to court, they'll be able to make the connection to the judicial situation, and the fact that the penalty's are too light, AND the judges who hear these cases don't understand the ripple effect it has to the community and earning potential for local business (who by the way vote and contribute to their campaigns). I get the fact that a Judge who sits before a brown trout rapist and a rapist of women needs to focus and concentrate on the violent crime in his court. The fish and game docket should be moved to a traffic type court and we all know that serious or repeat offenders can still get hammered in traffic court. And this has to be done for every county along the south shore so that in Albany it a collective effort that gets addressed in the State congress. It's a big deal. But that's how it happens. B1tching at the CO's is a waste of time. They try and enforce the regs they for sure are understaffed (and maybe if the state toughened up on these crimes...it would include budgeting for more officers) But if 99.9% of the violations are tossed out....they got no shot. We all dream of being able to go fishing enjoy the out doors and escape the drama of life and work ...which is usually the reason we are out there in the first place. One guy ripping and raping fish in a trib is putting ALL the fish down in that area. So ruining the opportunity for all others nearby. Back to my tireless comments over and over...so probably many of you "Hate" me...just kidding how can you hate me...I'm a cool old Cat. This is a 12 month a year fishery. The interests in the fishery 12 months a year have already been proved. If everybody banded together, you'd have the power to drive this home. It's easy to get all fired up on a web board....but type talk is cheap. I've been to Albany to fight for stuff. It's not easy it's political and it's not fun. And can't be a handful of people. maybe only a handful get into Chambers to talk to the guys and gals in charge, but there needs to be 1000 others sitting on the steps of State congress. (Ok maybe not a 1000). But strength is all about big numbers.
  14. The top producers of fish other then the Salmon river of probable recruitable numbers is the Sandy's on the east end, and the IRON. I won't share the other small one's as they mostly run through private property and have very limited access anyway. But none of these tribs would ever produce the numbers of fish, to where you could sustain a sport fishery. Whether they were closed off 100% of the time or not. It's purely about habitat, and folks we don't have very good fish producing habitat except for Chinook Salmon simply because they hatch during the winter months and leave the tribs in May early June, before they get too warm. The western Sandy is still a producer of warm water species such as the Small mouth bass. I haven't looked at the regs for this in a long time, but back in the day when I was fishing it for bass in the 60's you could not remove bait fish or crayfish from Sandy. No netting allowed. (And back in those days we caught all our own bait), but not on Sandy. I have fished all the North shore tribs, and most of them are big trout producers. Those natal waters are in fact closed until the last Sat in April, for a good reason, in Canada they depend on natural recruitment for both the open water and trib fisheries. It's interesting the "circle" of debate about more CO's. There have been several instances where region 7 and 8 have performed large sting operations and ticketed a large number of people for violations. And then the phone rings off the hook at DEC with anglers, guides and especially businesses in those sting areas complaining that their constituents are being hassled. And the CO's take the heat. Rick ...Vince keep me honest here, we met with DEC in Oct. Iron Fish and Game club. Had the region 8 LT or Capt there. We asked him how many tickets they wrote in region 8 . It was hundreds....3-400. Then I asked him point black, how many were found guilty and fined. It was either NONE or less then 5. Now put yourself in this CO's shoes. He's probably waiting longer looking harder at a possible violator to approach and write a ticket until he has a SLAM dunk case. Which takes more time. WHY???? Because every ticket he writes he has to appear in court on the day of hearing....and if 99% of the time he walks out without a conviction, it's tough. And our penalty for the standard violations max out at $250. Yes there are heavier fines and loss of licenses if you produce a truck full of salmon or trout to the court, but snagging a fish, or stripping eggs. Pay the fine and walk away. From the Western States to Alaska, and for all the Canadian provinces you will get fined, go to jail, and loose you gear, even your boat or car. That gets your attention...and the fines are in the $1000's. BUT DEC division of the State Police doesn't put the penalty's into Law. Once again our legislators do, and then our judges need to understand the impact that raping the sport fishery is like stealing from a store, bank or business...Shoplifters in NYS can get jail time. . The Sports angling community needs to move past the DEC on this issue, and direct their attention to our elected officials and the courts. Pure and simple. So who is stepping up? You want to run a petition on this site get 10,000 signatures and send it to your elected officials and judges...and you'll get their attention. You want a better law abiding environment....it starts there.
  15. Again.....eatsleeptrout, it's not that the eggs fertilized in our southern shore tribs don't hatch. It's that over a year and a half later when those fish become adult enough to migrate to the lake, they haven't survived in numbers to truly impact the addition of fishable adult species to this fishery. The trib you speak of that you think produces wild brown trout, truly doesn't in any recoverable numbers. That water gets into the mid to high 70's most years becomes very low and is lethal to those YOY fish. Shutting down a trib for three days would have no impact. The only tributary west of Sodus that DEC and USGS has confirmed produces wild trout and they've all been studied more then once is Irodequoit creek. Because it has several springs that can keep temps down. There are two tiny creeks just east Of Rochester that have also shown some brown trout reproduction, but we are talking handfuls of fish not thousands of recruitable adults. I've spent 15 years involved in these studies, colleting data, because I've been involved with conservation groups in Tributary rehab for most of those years, and we needed to know where to put our time and efforts into. I'd be all for shutting down true nursery's if we had them. We have a couple that are feeders to the salmon river that do produce 1000's of wild trout, and yet we continue to loose the fight to shut them down because anglers fight back they want to stand in these ditches and catch spawning steelhead. Like it or not those are the facts on wild trout reproduction in this neck of the woods. For the record we've had wild steelhead in the Salmon river before they started stocking in modern times, those were fish that originated from the 1880 stockings of McCloud river rainbows. My friend who grew up on that river was catching wild steelhead back in the mid 60's... Much of the wild fish on the Canada shore started with those same fish. They have evolved to specific strains like the Ganaraska. A good biologist friend spent two years on the Steel River out of Superior for his PHD thesis looking for McCloud river genes in those wild fish, they are gone 130 years later and replaced by natural Great lakes fish. But still some of those genetics in the wild Superior fish are 50 to 80 years old. They've been around a long time. There already are regs that forbid the stripping of fish and leaving the carcass. Those obviously aren't being enforced very well...simply because the violator has to be caught in the act. If we don't have enough CO's to patrol the rivers to enforce that reg, how are they going to check everybody egg sacks. Banning trout eggs is fine with me....I just don't think you put regs in place that you can't enforce.
  16. Just to clear up one point that I hear over and over about closing tribs during spawning season. There is so little successful natural reproduction of the trout species in our Southern tribs, that closing them would not have a measurable impact on recruiting new fish to the system. Now some true natal tribs like Orwell Brook on the salmon river could be closed in April as it has been known from a study of how successful natural repo is... to be a successful spawner should be closed. Brown trout, Steelhead and Coho Salmon spend over a year in a trib before migrating to the lake, therefore must summer over in our warm lethal streams and rivers. Survival rate to adult stage is minute at best. There are current regs of not harvesting eggs and discarding carcasses, no chumming regs etc, and yet the only way to stop it is to "catch" violators in the act. We all know there aren't enough CO's in the field, especially during the brown trout spawning season when you have Upland Game, Waterfowl, and Deer hunting going on at the same time. I'm all for regs that can and will be enforced, to Rich D's and others points DEC struggles to enforce the ones we got. If you see somebody doing this.....either call DEC, video them, take a picture, or follow them to their car and get their license plate number. And you have to be careful out there because those that do this intentionally, might be more inclined to get in an altercation with you. But we are going to have to start policing the raping of our resource and that's tricky. The reason the Canada tribs are closed until the last Sat in April (Only above the Canada railway system that runs parallel to LO and intersects all the popular tribs on the north Shore) is those streams do promote Natural repo, with good cold clear water even in summer.
  17. Gill creating a waiver takes two legal parties one of them is out of Albany and requires a big hill to climb in paperwork and bureaucracy Nothing is easy at this level. Nobody can fathom it but it's the system that is in place. Like it or not Steve has it right. DEC is a functional arm of NYS in the science business trying to figure out the complexities of an environment that changes by the hour. Less salmon more bait bigger fish. More salmon ample bait more competition less size but plenty of 15 to 25 pound salmon per acre then above. Pick your poison big fish with less fish. Smaller fish more fish. Not going to get back to the 70's or 80's the lake will never again have the carrying capacity as it did back then cause we'll never again have the nutrient loading. That was then this is now different day different world. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  18. Steve I don't know about getting a reward.... People who enjoy fishing the tribs....have in the past 15 years stepped up and volunteered to clip fish, plant trees clean tribs, help with the spring netting of YOY Chinooks to study Natural repo. We bought gas cards for DEC and donated them to help do the stream creel census. Just this fall and winter both rec and guides helped DEC collect the sample of sick steelhead. I happen to have a lot of friends who are in this that study the environment and understand the science, and to Tom's brilliant post get the fact that as much as we think DEC has management say, they actually have very little. Mother nature calls the shots. You can have all the great management plans you want but MN runs the game. As far as sending people up to do work on the hatchery...as a business legal consultant, I can tell you there is a MOUNTAIN of red tape from NYS that is almost impossible to do (Audits etc etc)...that stifles all of that. And it has nothing to do with DEC. See legal dept. at NYS.
  19. Well Jerry just like fishing we ask a lot of questions cause we are always trying to learn something new. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United
  20. I agree with Gill on this....in the end DEC isn't telling us the results of the specific science they may have recorded on scale samples and fun loving orientation etc. They want to know how many fish caught what species, and they would want your scaled weight of the fish probably to determine the health by weight. But since that could be less accurate, they might just settle for how many anglers, how long you fished, where people were from, and what you caught. I would think if Lake Angler clubs, and Charter Boat Assoc. contacted Jana, and discussed this opportunity, if they buy in, they'd help design the data sheet needed. Maybe somebody could even volunteer to design (cause we know they probably can't afford it) a virtual data collection portal to the DEC ...and you could upload this data to it from your phone from the boat buy having the electronic form on your phone. We got more innovators around here then you can shake a stick at.....get with the DEC and pitch some ideas.
  21. Side pressure no good unless you pull that throttle back into neutral and we aren't kite-ing the fish. I figured out how to catch these fish on a fly rod out in open water. Did it years ago, but perfected it the past 10 years in the Salt. off shore.. proper sink tip, water load that cast, fling it 100 feet, count to 25 ... strip....and hang on. Fun to watch those rods trip off a release...whole nother game when a player in open water comes to eat those feathers, and rips your arm out of the socket cause you are holding the rod on the take....jus sayin' .... BUT fishing that game...that 8 fish avg a trip is going to take a hit. Steve....I know many have said it before, but it always need saying, you run a wonderful site, very fair, lots of great info, and lots of great anglers come visit here. Thanks for the invite...and thanks much for the voice. you're first class Steve.
  22. I usally get out for the Spring Derby with a buddy down out of Wilson. Last year a fly fishing lady friend of mine and my wife Lindsay has a little 14 footer. I told Lisa I'd teach her how to troll the shoreline if she was interested. She was all in...as she loves to both trib and lake fish. We went out of Sandy on a Monday morning from 7 to Noon we put 40 fish over the side, I asked her what she thought of this.....her response....."I think I need Cigarette"
  23. I really don't think most people understand the "power" that the Great lakes Fishery Commission wields. The DEC and the DNR in the other lakes don't have 100% the last say on these decisions. Everybody should go to their website and get educated. Native species are going to be chips on the table forever. These guys have been in business and in charge since the 50's. They have an agenda, and it's going to get carried out. And none of these states in the GL get to say....Ahh...nah....this isn't for us. That's a game we can't win. So instead we have to find a way to play within the boundaries of the playing field...and honestly...haven't we? Doesn't matter if you are a part timer or full timer...if you choose to invest in this game of running a business...(not just charter guys), bait and tackle, marina's etc.....it's a roll of the dice all the way. Your success out on the big pond as well as in the tribs simply can't be debated. We are catching lots of fish.....and we have been for a very long time whether you believe the data or not. Let's just go look at the page after page of reports from the fishermen. Maybe we are all just a tad antsy cause of the winter. I haven't been on a trib since Jan 18....and I'm angry and nasty as Hell. Best of luck this year Steve....I know you'll do well .
  24. Steve I asked a "leading Question" of USGS at the meeting....meaning I already knew the answer, but many in the audience didn't. USGS trawls for Alewife from April 5th to May 5th give or take a day here or there. I asked if they think they are missing fish when and where they trawl. Understand they start there trawls sector from shallower (50 foot) on each shore all the way across the lake. And yes they are leaning on Good Ol' Bob O'Gorman's long term knowledge that in this time frame Y Over Y ....In early April to early May when the inshore and off shore waters are very cold Alewife are located at or nearer the bottom sections of the depts. of water they trawl. With a lake the size of LO....can they be 30 yards away from a huge school of bait fish and miss them ....ahh...can trollers be 30 yards away trolling from a huge school of Salmon and not bounce a rod only to proclaim the fish aren't here in this spot? Let me ask....when USGS found the highest concentration of YOY alewife's EVER in the fall off 2013...how come nobody questioned THAT data? No matter the results of the spring trawls...they already knew there was a huge load of new forage running around out there....and everybody must have believed this to be true...cause many were yelling TOO many bait fish not enough predators. So do you really doubt that after the coldest winter in 150 years last year...that resulted in lowest body weight of moon eyes in a decade, AND a very poor YOY trawl last Sept....trawling the same location that yielded the record numbers the year before that they got it all screwed up? Doesn't make sense. If we don't like a data point, we don't believe the numbers? That's convenient. On to creel census.....So they have a budget that allows for one to two boats for a few months. How come nobody ...none of the Charter Boat groups, or rec anglers groups...haven't stepped up and said HEY, we'll also collect data, put it in a spread sheet and send it in? We could scape off a couple scales when we are cleaning fish...put them in an envelope and write on it...from an 8 pound king salmon, caught July 4. "partnerships" are a two way street. We've kept logs on the finger lakes, and inland tribs for DEC that helped them determine health of those tribs. Is it an effort? Hell yeah. You want better data...PROVIDE it yourself. The DEC didn't hold a gun to anybody's head and say...go be a Charter Boat fisherman and try and make a living at it...and we promise to keep you whole the entire length of your career, and don't worry about Mom nature, we'll handle her... Another hatchery??? Whose paying for it...whose giving the state the money to manage it and pay 10 people to work there? How about everybody who fishes this fishery (me included) donate I don't know $20K of your paychecks to fund it. Did anybody remember Andy G talking about the roof leaking at Altmar? It's been leaking since 1985. Gonna get that fixed this year 30 years later. Who doesn't think the same problems and challenges don't crop up in another hatchery. The 1980's Version was $10M to build....what would it be in today's market...and where are we getting the deep water wells dug? We have some special folks that I fish with, and many others that I don't know but have contributed time and effort to this fishery, without working to simply put money in their pockets. . Yeah we love our trib fish....and we saw the potential to create better habitat in a river that does promote wild fish, mostly King Salmon. the Salmon river has a huge flux season to season with the run off from the Tug Hill...causing tons of erosion problems, silting spawning gravel. So since 2008, we've planted 60,000 trees along the areas that are impacted, You can't truly measure our efforts as of yet, but the river produces millions of wild fish including for the first time in 150 years wild Atlantic Salmon. Not saying this looking for a pat on the back....but stating a fact that if you want better data or conditions...then get involved MORE then just sitting in a meeting and complaining about what you are listening to.
  25. I respectfully disagree Steve. The DEC's focus has to be on one thing and one thing only....a healthy fishery. If that means less fish it's only because the science says so. DEC has loaded in almost 3 Million surplus fish the past several years. They upgraded the King Stocking numbers from 1 million when the forage base was low, back to 2 Million, Even WITH what they now know is a large wild population to boot. The Avg Charter boat caught 8 fish per trip? Where have we ever seen long term Avg numbers like this? I realize you all want those 8 fish to be salmon....but if they didn't have the other fish in the lineup when the salmon fishing is off....Then what? They can't knee jerk the science. As far as a broken record....how about the continued whining from anglers saying they don't believe any of their scientific data, when we've had a "very" healthy fishery for FORTY YEARS!!!...and have never lost the fishery. If I was a Lake angler...I'd be holding my breath right about now....cause loads of salmon or not...LO is nearly or at the 1979 apocalypse core temp. If the predator to prey balance is flipped this year because of this winter, you'll happy DEC didn't knee jerk a ton of more fish into the system. As far as Dollars...DEC is a Science Functional arm of the State of New York. They aren't in business. Where were all the assemblymen and women at the SOTL the other night? Those are the folks WHO have clout to work with DEC to bring the value of the tourism to the table. Chamber of Commerce where were they? You guys are focused on the wrong targets fishing in dead water. You're banging on scientists.....to put money in your pockets. Finally....like it or not...DEC and rightfully so manages this fishery as it should be....a 12 month a year entity. And in less than a month these pages are going to be full (in the reports section)..of 50 fish days trolling the shore line.....every day there will be a dozen new reports, video's...etc. And the question I would have????...are you guys still having fun out there? I watch the video's of some of you guys pulling in big lakers...and to me...it looks like a lot of fun....yeah LOVE King Salmon.....but I simply love to fish! OK off the soap box...thanks....and I'll be happy to take my beating...now...but look in the mirror...how spoiled ARE WE?
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