King Davy

Let’s be fair. The lake anglers have done most of the heavy lifting on the pen projects. Let’s get over who talked to who and who didn’t talk to who. Bottom line fish have been raised for over 20 years thanks to Bob’s foresight in starting the pen projects. If we all want to catch these fish then we all including trib guys should help raise them. Can we ever get past lake VS tribs and understand that we are all fisherman who love the LO entire watershed. And that all hands on deck are welcome no matter how or where you fish? Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Yes Gill, they take the same data for Steelhead upon return in the spring as they do salmon in the fall. Again, during this over a year long discussion in the LO stakeholders panel we started with dozens of issues collectively that both lake and trib participants wanted DEC to try and address. We had three major subjects from the tribs. Still wanted the brown trout limit reduced due to the extreme high use of that fishery in the fall only on our rivers and streams. Gill we’ve talked to DEC about this since 2003. And we have no interest nor would we be successful in asking for a trib and lake reduction. We have the browns for a short time and they get hammered. We wanted to try to keep a few more around for all of us. Second was the 25 inch limit in both the lake and tribs. Another subject we have broached with them since 2003. Why? we simply wanted to keep non spawning steelhead in the system. I’ve recited DEC’s data since 1983 till now over 98% of the steelhead they handle to spawn are 25 inches or greater. (One of the data points collected on Steelhead) Lake anglers made a good argument on why it would be difficult to sort fish on the lake. So that ask was refused to be addressed Third was to address the rampant law breaking issues on the tribs. Internally DEC is working with law enforcement. When DEC moved steelhead size limits to 21 inches, Jana and regional managers through her lake creel data came up with some percentage of less harvest on the lake that put more steelhead through our rivers that must have been impactful enough to make the change. They told us that in the meetings. Gill, DEC took all of these subjects back to their lake wide managers in each region and along with their staffs and internal discussions came out with the regulation positions that are out on their web. We did not seek a creel reduction on the lake. I’m assuming ( so I have no official reason, maybe others from the panel do) because what we face today with our predator prey issue on what happened in the 90’s when salmon fishing went south and the pressure on steelhead resulted in knocking that fishery over on the tribs as well...they went back to Jana’s data did some math on what % of fish might not be harvested in the lake with the 3 to 2 change and was it significant enough to warrant the change to try and keep all stakeholders in the game both lake and tribs. I’m truly guessing on this. They listened to lake trollers on the panel on the difficulty of releasing steelhead on the lake. Remember this is the second phase of the comment period. There was one in Jan and Feb this year. Maybe they heard from enough stakeholders on the lake that stated releasing steelhead on the lake wasn’t as big a problem that they heard on the panel. DEC isn’t going to share until likely a final decision is made on why they did or did not proceed with these regs. We all know DEC is data driven on management decisions. They don’t shoot from the hip on regulation changes stocking decisions etc. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Never heard of you either. Could care less what you think of me or what caliber of fisherman you are. That’s your business or your problem one or he other. Yes we had great fishing but we weren’t getting an additional shot of 5 to as many as 10 million wild fry to add to the stocked fishery as we have now. It was good but it wasn’t this easy. Ask Vince, Bob and Tom about back then on how we had to chase several species to have a successful day for our clients. And we don’t have 40 pounders any more because IMHO we have more salmon than food in the cupboard and there isn’t enough chow to go around to grow them that big. Last two years salmon avg weight lowest and near lowest avg ever? Not thinking they are on a diet. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

I was involved with Pen rearing at Sandy (as my Charter Boat) was parked there. Helped on work days at both the Oak and Genny. Helped for many years since Bob got started in 1998. Way before you were. Ask Sam. Then moved an hour away in 2008. I can get the names of the guys for you. But yes we should have always been involved. Not disagreeing with you on that. I didn’t know that the Oak program had stopped penning steelhead a few years ago. I asked why and was told they weren’t as an important part of their fishing. I guess they are now since there is a lot of angst over this one reg. Sandy always had steelhead but didn’t last year. Heard the pens they used for bows weren’t available anymore. Don’t know why. And then there is the Genny. You have my phone number and email address. I made sure of it at the Sandy Creek meeting, I asked you to contact me on your work day and I’d get some folks to help. You never called. Simply guessing you didn’t need or want our help. Well you weren’t in the room so what ever I tell you, you aren’t going to buy anyway. But I provided the regs as they are presented on the DEC web site to include the rational on why DEC is considering them. Did I add some of my experience and history around this back in the 90’s and early 2000’s? Sure. I am on the Bi- National panel and was given the presentation to share With others. So I did at the TU meeting. We are first and foremost a conservation organization working on several projects around the state. We are also involved as stakeholders to any and all fisheries in the state where there are conservation, and especially environmental concerns like this predator prey issue, and public involvement of fishery management. Maybe you are unaware, but DEC is revamping every fishery management plan in the State. From inland waters to lake Ontario, and we are in attendance and involved in them all. TU is NOT a C&R only organization. Rather, responsible rational management strategies to a unique watershed to provide “opportunity” as in the opportunity to fish to fish. My opinion we are about to live through the repeat of history. You can’t cut salmon stocking for three consecutive years and soon or later not have it affect angler opportunity and success. When it happened last time we toppled the Steelhead fishery. Hell I was part of knocking it over. With the current data from USGS again in my opinion we’ll continue to see stocking cuts. Maybe even deeper. Lake fishers are not going to search for 8 eight hours for a salmon only bite. We are going to want some action and most will target other species much harder then we have in quite some time. It will have an impact and negative domino effect fish returning to rivers like it did in the 90’s and early 2000’s until trib anglers took action. The lake Reg is purely a DEC decision. They remember the history as well and are trying to avoid history repeating itself on a very important long fishery that gets a huge following of anglers to our LO rivers both in state and especially out of state. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

This thread is in the “General Discussion “ section. So we have folks who are interested in the entire fishery reading and responding. This isn’t a lake fishing only message board. Two of the three regs we’ve been discussing are trib only related yet we have threads in here to kill the 1 brown trout limit in the tribs from lake anglers because your afraid it will affect the lake fishery. Seems Misdemeanor that lake folks are doing exactly what you are accusing trib stakeholders of doing. What’s it going to take for everyone to understand this fishery isn’t for lake... or Trib ONLY interests. And more importantly that DEC intends to manage for all stakeholders. They are listening to anyone who takes the time to explain their own personal rational on why or why not these regs are good for overall management of the entire watershed. And when we gathered some volunteers to help with pens we had several people, TU members imagine that ... that have been helping at both Sandy and the Genny for years. They just didn’t have to wear a sign “I trib fish” when helping. Members of LOTAC, TU, and LOSA since 2007 have planted over 60,000 trees and stream bank erosion barrier willows around King Salmon spawning gravel on the Salmon River to keep those rich spawning grounds viable that for sure has been a boom for lake fishing the last 10 years. We did have a few river guides help out. Rest were rec trib anglers. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Yup was asked to present the regs proposals and how to respond. Was also asked to walk through the information that USGS presented at the STATE OF THE LAKE meetings ... what were there three at different sites with also a call in and the BI National meeting. Many of the folks in the room fish LO and the tribs but don’t live near enough to go to a meeting at the locations they were held at. Or were able to call in. It was an information presentation. Passing along information to those asking for it is a problem? So if people responded before or after this meeting or encouraged other members to do so, seems no different then putting threads on this board, for lake anglers to vote this down, or videos telling people to respond from lake anglers. Bob I think it was you that said this is still a democracy ... and you couldn’t be more right. Everyone has a right to know what’s going on and if they choose to get involved they will. However Trout Unlimited did not send a formal statement to DEC on the regs. It’s up to individual stakeholders who decide they want to because it’s important to them to get involved. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

And BTW these regs haven’t been passed. The comment period still goes for another two weeks. I have no idea after 12/14 when the comment period closes will DEC decide to accept them or not. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

I’m sure trib anglers that may be a member of a trout unlimited chapter have written in to respond to the regs along with trib anglers who aren’t a member of TU or any other organization. If your asking did TU as an organization officially submit responses to DEC the answer is no. So did professional charter boat associations respond in an official capacity? Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

The one thing we all hope for is that we get the predator prey balance we need whether it’s as bad as it looks or not so we can all enjoy this world class fishery in its truest form. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Once again Bob I don’t discount your experience and hopefully you don’t discount mine. As a serious steelhead angler if I didn’t have the experiences of catching and releasing steelhead any time of the year and the many others I fish with and have fished with for decades having similar success I couldn’t possibly support the reg. I do because of what I’ve experienced since the mid 70’s on the lake and in our rivers. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

The meeting at the hatchery in Feb of 2017 was and invite by DEC, and there were Charter Boat capt’s. In attendance that fished the river and the lake. The meeting minutes were printed out and available at the state of the lake meetings the following month. Anybody could pick them up and read them. Not one word was mentioned about lake anglers killing too many fish etc etc etc. I have no idea where you folks come up with this stuff, but the end all is TU paying the DEC? Really. Paying for what? And if you are accusing somebody of something , then put the names, dates, times on the table. Don’t just spew the same old garbage time after time with no proof or facts to back it up. Rick the young lady steward who stopped by Sandy Creek last week said she’d already done 800 interviews on that stream alone. This weekend on the salmon river it was jam packed with people. Easily 500 or more people fishing. The Genny last week had 50 anglers in high water on a Wednesday. Our tribs are and will be busy right till the end of April next year. I’m in them an average of four days a week so I’m seeing it first hand. Steelhead get caught in the lake and rivers over and over and survive. Any fish released and swims away doesn’t carry a guarantee it’s still alive a day... a week , or a month later. And I’m happy to show you close up shots of steelhead with their gums roughed up from multiple hookings. I’ve heard from Charter Boat capts as well as recreational anglers that they successfully release steelhead on the lake all the time. Maybe they are simply better at handling fish. We’ve all got a better story these days. What ever DEC decides to do about stocking, any regs changes etc is about them making a management decision that best fits their strategy to keep the entire fishery viable for all year round stake holders. There are way more serious issues than a creel limit change, size limit change, extending a season etc. if our predator to pray ratio is out of whack and gets worse, we’ll all be fishing for perch. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

My stomping ground is both the lake and the tribs. I fish both along with 100’s of others that do as well. Interested in an effective fishery for all. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

For the record and the Charter Boat Captains in the room can confirm at these panel discussions, trib anglers never asked for creel reductions on the lake. We asked for a size limit increase. It got turned down. The rest of the things we asked for were trib related only. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

You can’t hide dead decaying fish in a river. They are right there at your feet for months. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

I have a hard time thinking the tough fishing is because of mismanaging when you look at USGS data. I think there are plenty of trout but two weeks ago we had river temps in the mid 30’s ... WAY earlier then usual. That never lends to hot fishing. I talked to some folks from Brookfield this weekend. On the same Labor Day weekend when I saw hundreds of fish run the Salmon they said they have never had so many salmon at the gates of the dam. Guy I talked to said you could walk across them and not get your feet wet. I would imagine they were a huge slug of wild fish to run way past the hatchery. I certainly expected soon or later with catch rates at 237% above the highest success rates ever in 2018, what we experienced this year with similar results of spectacular salmon fishing. I would imagine higher harvest rates with all these fish being caught and a 20/20/40% cut over 3 years somethings gonna give. I had good fishing but I’m not lining or snagging fish. I’m actually fishing for them so while numbers of fish caught isn’t anything unusual, I had plenty of fun. But yes we are going to feel an impact with cuts and high catch and harvest. Maybe folks should have let a few more fish go. One thing for sure they ain’t swimming into a river once in a cooler. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Any serious steelhead angler is extremely in favor of a healthy king salmon fishery and a stable forage base and food web. Kings and steelhead are attached at the hip. They swim in the same off shore waters. But the true impact of a solid king salmon fishery is the fall runs. Steelhead have as sharp a sense of smell as the best bird dogs. If a good run of salmon have ascended a river, once their eggs are dropped and even more the rotting carcasses that we smell when walking into these rivers all that scent brings waves of spawning age and younger rainbows into any flow that provides those scents out to the lake. I’m averaging 4 days a week on rivers and smaller streams from the west to the east end of the lake. Fishing has been off. And I know the brown trout and steelhead population haven’t been severely impacted in 2018 and 2019 because the lake salmon fishing was sensational for most of the seasons. So many of us didn’t target the other staple species or steelhead. So why is the trout fishing off? Poor returns of salmon to almost all the rivers I’ve fished. The trout are not attracted up these rivers in flushes of fish. Rather they are trickling in. My humble opinion is between the high angler success rate on the lake the last two years. Actually since 2017, in conjunction with three years of stocking cuts, less then stellar wild success impact we are entering the hole we are probably going to have over the next couple years. And it’s going to impact the entire 12 month a year seasons both lake and tribs. Why is the 25 inch steelhead limit important on the tribs? Because we have both spawning and non spawning fish in. Trib anglers know those younger fish while fun to catch are more valuable to everyone if they aren’t harvested at 21-24 inches will return to the lake and those that aren’t caught in the lake will return as spawners the next year and can be very nice 10 to 12 pound fish.. maybe even larger. Trib anglers like any fisherman would like to catch lots of fish but a large majority would also like to get back to seeing some bigger fish. From a management perspective I believe DEC is anticipating this hole in salmon fishing, more pressure on other species and hoping to find a viable balancing of effort to success of all anglers either in the lake or in our rivers. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

The highest angler effort hours are not the summer months. The tributaries angler hour effort has been double the lake effort for many years. That’s not because one is necessarily more popular than the other. The trib season is a full 8 months long. The economic value to these small lake side communities is essential during the fall and winter months when many of these rivers are in full use 7 days a week. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Actually the reduction to steelhead in the tribs was worked on with DEC in 2002 and 2003 and went into effect in Oct 2004. Candidly anglers wanted the entire lake and trib size to be 25 inches back then. The DEC management initiative has been since the start and remains today that the marquee target fish in the Lake are Chinook salmon, and the marquee fish in the tribs are steelhead. That coho salmon lake trout and brown trout are staple species for the lake fishing and purely icing on the cake in the tribs. Steelhead that actually spend more time in a river than in the lake in a given year are simply icing on the cake for the lake fishery. We even have non spawning steelhead in our rivers now along with adult spawners. They ascend a river and return to the lake even though they are not going to spawn. We have been looking for a creel reduction in browns for a long time in the tribs because we have the highest use for brown trout fishing in the US in the short period of time they are in our rivers. You should actually be excited we want to keep more of those fish off stringers because they are coming back to lake anglers over the winter. I can tell you if we ever asked for a reduction in the lake of a staple lake species we would always be turned down by DEC. Brown trout are meant to be a staple fish for the lake, and for a short time a nice to have in the tribs. Don’t have to believe me. Ask the DEC if they’d reduce brown trout on the lake just for advantage in the tribs you’ll get the same answer. Again in 1993 salmon stocks were cut in half. Lake anglers including charter boat operators for which I was one harvested many more steelhead due to the spotty salmon fishing especially in the summer months. By 2000 if you caught a steelhead in a trib it was a “happening”. I actually talked to some folks at the hatchery who said in the early 2000’s they struggled to handle enough steelhead to get the allotment of eggs each spring. Once the 1 steelhead limit went in the fish returned in droves. BUT that’s not the whole story. By the early 2000’s salmon stocking had returned to full production, and because of the base flow rate treaty at the salmon river with the power company we started to get millions of wild salmon hatching in the river. Fast forward to today. Let’s all be straight, the news on the forage base isn’t good. We’ve had salmon stocking cuts for the past three years and does anybody truly think it will go back to full production with what we’ve seen. If it doesn’t we are going to start to see tougher salmon fishing on the lake the next couple years. What does that mean? Likely lake anglers will put more pressure on the other staple species in the lake as well as steelhead. These reg changes are looking to get ahead of that and hopefully keep a viable fishery for everyone. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United