King Davy

Everybody has their own preference. I love catching King Salmon in the open waters , not so much in a trib. Totally different fish. Just as Atlantic Salmon are truly a better river fish than open water caught IMHO. To say Salmo Salar isn't the fighter a King is....means you haven't caught one on a swung fly in a big river, where they have just as much (actually MORE speed) than Pacific Salmon, and I've had them leap as high as many Tarpon I've hooked. Couple that with the one thing Pacific Salmon don't possess. A super sense of curiosity to where they will raise from 10 feet down, swirl and bump your fly to where it becomes a true cat and mouse game of finding a fly they will come to play with. They may crush that fly, or sip it like a 12 inch trout. Once you sink the Iron the experience of how they react will have you talking to yourself. Probably not fair to compare a fish that the boat hooks and is fought by a moving boat, VS a 1 on 1 session with a different wonderful game fish where the hunt, the take, and the fight is very up close and personal. Love em both, just in different environments. On the reduction it's so minimal. Remember the drought of 2007. DEC only recovered and stocked in the spring of 2008 less than 800K Kings. Go look at the Creel census for 2011, 2012. Record catches of adult fish....and returns to the hatchery. I'd be more inclined that if we make such a fuss about a minimal reduction, WE the stakeholders are sending the message to others that the fishing will be off. When most probably unless confined by weather like 14,15...it won't be.

Had a feeling you knew Kelso. We must have shared water at some point. Kelso is the guide star for Lindsay women's seminars up on the river each summer. All the girls LOVE jimmy

Rich yes behind the hatchery. The vets bunk at the DEC CO barracks right there at 2A. Friday night is intro' of the teams and then Linds and I Jimmy Kelso and others partner up with a soldier and teach them flies we'll fish with. Dinner at the CO headquarters. Sat 0700 hours chow at the barracks then off to the river. 10th mountain puts up a tent on the bank of the river with heat and snacks and drinks. We've had cadets from West Point come to observe and many others. VFW puts on a dinner SAT night and then we do it again on Sunday. We have a couple drift boats that are DEC rigs to handle vets with physical limitations. Last year we had two young kids amputees. Super guys and they both caught some of these wonderful fish. I'm sure many of you who have been involved in these types of events you know how emotional it can get. I've been doing this for a long time and have made lasting friendships with these guys. Linds and I run a fly fishing school for wounded vets here in Rochester for OASIS Adaptive sports. Google it really great org. We do a March thru July program with five vets. I have a lady Navy vet we've been working with. This lady can flat out fish. Can't wait to get her up on this event. She beat all the boys on a accuracy casting competition. Sorry for getting off topic guys. Just truly love this program.

Thanks Vince....it was a very special weekend. In two weeks we do the annual PHW event up there. The past five years we've had a nice slug of silver steelhead where we get to fish the Vets. This year we'll guide 12 to 14 hero's. Salmon season should be over, with plenty of carcasses, and good numbers of fresh steel chomping on eggs and flesh. We'll see what this year brings.

The DSR is the fist 2.5 miles of 11 miles of fish able water. After the event we had yesterday I went up to the trestle then Ellis and finally the fly zone. Lots of bent rods. The DSR is transition water. Only a few big pools for fish to rest. And the reason they fly through there and head up. Fish have been moving at night. Saying that the fishing is totally off because of the DSR reports is like saying if the fishing is slow on the east end of the lake the entire lake is off. If we are going that way the fishing is bad every year. And lastly the DSR cut the daily limit of anglers in half. Lot less people fishing it per day then all the past years. I can only report on what I see and how I'm doing. Get out of your chairs and get on a river. A lot of arm chair qb's eh?

Gambler.....The fish ran late last year as well. I fished to salmon at Christmas. I'm not debating the number of fish...I'm stating that there is plenty of presence of fish where I'm fishing. The fish didn't run in August, I can name you many more years they didn't run in August then when they did. The last few years we saw "significant" runs in August, The fish I saw yesterday ...if they ran in August would be dead by now, and maybe never have contributed to the new generation of Salmon. I'm telling you there is a big impressive class of fish in the upper river. I have no agenda to make this stuff up....however it's simply my observation, but man these were crazy beautiful animals. Folks....even if the DEC decides to put more Salmon in for what ever reasons they may find it difficult to do so with the carrying capacity of room left. But one hurdle that will get over is the simple fact that they will get all their eggs... And these fish look very healthy. The hens are just pure egg wagons. Is there EVER a day when the Sky is NOT falling around here? Yes I'm just one guy that has logged about 14 days on the water since Mid Sept. Before that I was catching a$$ kicking bass and tuna on the sound. I don't chase these fish until now, because I hope to have some diversity with some Steelhead and Brown trout around...and BTW they are as well. What can I tell you...the 14 days that I fished for trout and Salmon ...I was always fishing to fish. I can't say anything else. I've had years with the "Banner" runs where I didn't happen to be where the fish were. This year where ever I've gone I have plenty of targets to swing at. Two years ago when the fish ran in August and I went there first of Oct...I had no salmon to fish to...they were all up river. Guess what I had banner years fishing for Salmon in the salmon in the mid 90's when they only put in 1M, and nobody caught them on the lake. I don't know....just fish.

Gill I was away up on the river fishing with 14 very brave women recovering from Breast Cancer who were looking to learn to fly fish as part of the CFR project my wife Lindsay was leading. That the DSR kindly supplied the space, and infrastructure and logistics to accommodate these wonderful ladies. So I didn't get your message. Yesterday after the event was over I had a chance to go up river and see what was happening. I'd say from Pineville up there were plenty of Salmon present, but from Ellis Cove up there were lots of fish being "hooked". I walked the Hatchery property. Every holding pen is jammed with Coho's. I guess they counted Coho heads and have a number of 3500 to start spawning today if they are loose. The brook leading into the hatchery has salmon in every inch of it, the raceways that are four feet deep, have salmon in every inch of it, and way more impressive, is I had the opportunity to visit the back of the hatchery property, which is about a quarter mile long and it is virtually completely black with Salmon which are spawning naturally. I won't guess how many fish are on the property because no matter what number I come up with it will be challenged. All I can say is that there is as many fish there as I've ever seen. Does that mean there is as many as three years ago in the entire river, I would have no way of knowing....would you? Until DEC does their carcass and red count will they be able to put a number on if the run to this river is up, down, or relatively the same. I'll be on the Genny this week. A guide I know who works there is having a very good year. Two weeks ago I saw fish boiling everywhere. To my knowledge DEC doesn't do body counts there. I stopped at Oswego on the way home, and saw fish from the Dam down. And people fishing for them. Looking at pics on Kevin Davis's site looks like they are doing well. One would have to ask him what he thinks. Were they late??? for sure. Is there good fishable numbers...it appears so. Is it the same as three years ago...who knows. I wouldn't think any numbers would be as good as three years ago with two way off climates the last 24 months. But is the fishery viable to continue the fall sport fishing...it appears so. The big board at the hatchery had the egg take count at a full 2.5 million and change. What was a very interesting number is the eggs per hen....at just under 5,000, which according to the biologist I talked to that is taking eggs is a very nice high average. Not sure it is an all time high, but they considered it a marker to say these lady salmon were in good shape. After the Coho egg take, they'll switch back to kings. I believe their target is again a little over 4 million, and Gill one thing I will state my bank account on...is they will have no trouble in making that number. The fresh in fish in the raceways were simply impressive. Big big hens saw many easily in the high 20's and low 30's only five feet from me. All the fish I was able to get a close look at were beautiful full bodies specimens. The only positive news I can 100% relate is the fact that DEC will again capture the brood stock to continue the stocking program. On the DSR lots of fish spawning there. To Rich's point doesn't matter what I think, wait to hear what the DEC's final results of studies are. But if I was intent on catching King Salmon this fall, I don't see that I couldn't go to any of the major tibs I fish, and not find plenty to fish for. Finally ...and I know you know this....but at 350 to 450 CFS the Salmon giggers don't get shots at them as easily which is a beautiful thing. And these fish are moving under the cover of darkness as well. Look back at the "Banner year reports" from two years ago, when the avg CFS in the fall was 100 to 185, and the fish can't hide. Was interesting to stand next to the Salmon Crews staring at thousands of salmon in the Hatchery grounds and not believing their eyes that THAT many fish ran by them. That's all I got. And stop beating the dead DSR horse....it's boring. As long as they continue to host Breast Cancer and Wounded Warrior Events that we run....I'm good with them.

Yeah fished yesterday afternoon and again today. Saw a few steelhead scattered about. I haven't hooked one but the couple I saw hooked up put on a real show jumping all over the place. Hopefully they'll be healthy this year. Time will tell. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Up on the salmon for A special event. So this week about 2.5 m King eggs harvested. Monday they do cohos. 3500 cohos in the pens for spawning. And then back to kings. Lots of fish up river, hatchery and beaver dam you can walk across them. Some steelhead starting to show. And enough people to start a small country. So looking like brood stock goals for harvest are on plan. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

I'm smelling a camp fire and the singing of cum-by-ya . We need to meet at a Gin Mill and have a drink some time.

Gee Gambler maybe so...I have four friends that do nothing but anchor off the wrecks between Long Pond and Iron Bay and crush the fish. All year classes, and there isn't a day I walk the Charlotte pier when they are out there all summer long (if we have some inshore cold water) they aren't whacking the snot out of them. BUT...back in the day...there were NO perch....And Mrs. Mother Nature may have had an effect on them as well. But I truly defer to your observation since you spend a lot of time targeting them.

And an apology to Gilly...just saw your work in the trib section....nicely done my friend. I'd fish a river with you any day. But that kind of behavior is why I fish the DSR during the salmon run. All the best Gilly.

So let me try this again...(and this is just what is swimming around in my brain) try and explain why I don't think the answer to the equation....is putting in more Salmon RIGHT now. And it has NOTHING TO DO....with not enjoying catching or seeing a big healthy King salmon over any other fish. First off, One logically can't assume every bait fish on their screen is an alewife. The last few years trawl results have shown bio mass up ticks of other bait fish species e.g emerald Shiners, that can and will inhabit zones that alewife and predator fish reside in. When we've had a huge bio mass of alewife in the system fish like shiners and yellow perch, Shads were depressed. That just isn't the case right now. While they don't co-habit the same water columns in the summer months they for sure do at spawning time. And if there were way more alewife these other species would be barely present. You can fill buckets of perch in LO right now, all along the shore line. I see it every weekend. Next...I don't discount Vince's argument that fishing is tough if there is too much competition. Vince I understand that way more then you can know spending an evening on a trout stream that has a monster hatch of bugs, to where my fly has little chance of being eaten by the dozens of fish raising at my feet. However, if salmon are out there and gorging themselves on the huge bio mass of herring, why aren't we seeing lots and I mean lots of big fish. OK because over eating they mature faster, but we've witnessed brown trout over eating to where we get big young fish. We aren't getting overly large young fish. The Weather. We know the past two winters have effected alewife body fat conditions. Causing the death of YOY fish, and creating thin mature alewife. They are thin, most probably because the food chain below them has been impacted as well. So logically if the lowest forms of the food chain is out of balance, meaning too little of it, more normal weather patterns would be required to have all of those elements of the food chain to recover. One might argue that if you take the predator of the plankton and shrimps out of play they would recover faster, but then you'd create a hole in the food chain for the top predators to continue to grow and mature. for the next say two years of fresh Salmon plants and wild fish....and it would impact the other predator species as well. All could suffer. Logically balance has to recover from the tiny elements of the food chain all the way up to the top predators. And it's best done naturally. Mother nature has an infinite record of allowing what it destroys to recover healthier....(see wild forests that burn and re-grow). In my mind if you try and balance the environment from the top down, instead of how it rights itself naturally from bottom up, you run a much higher risk of longer out of balance issues, to where your top predators, ALL of them suffer. I don't believe there is a magic bullet or quick fix to what Mother nature messes up. For the record last years Steelhead B1 problems were noted in the larger adult maturing fish, while the scouts and fish well under 10 pounds didn't seem to be affected from the dozens of fish I observed. Let's hear from others what they observed. This also seemed to be a bigger issue only on the east end of the lake. I observed 1 swirling steelhead in the Genny which I spend most of my time on, and none at Oak Orchard. And the logical thought is ...the forage from Rochester west is MUCH more diversified, meaning those steelhead were probably dinning on shiners and gobies, and other species ...not only herring. Which then suggests there are many more of other bait fish species swimming in those waters. Now...many of you will debate and or disagree with my logical thought process, but I didn't make this scenario up...it's what we've historically seen since the dawn of this fishery. Balance is key, but not of just one element of the food chain. The chain reaction to the two coldest winters in record in 100 years was what most probably kicked this off. And then you throw in the pressure put on the fishery to the top predators from the lake and trib fisheries, for now going on 24 months when it's all said and done....and the second off summer in a row, and we now have a ton a variables in on top of the element that started the slide. I can't see where not allowing the data to become picture perfectly clear from the science that is being evaluated ...(and yes it takes time, and we all hate to wait). isn't the "best" choice. I didn't say the only choice just what I...me thinks is logically the best choice. I say that simply because since the late 60's the guys doing the science, and making management decisions have a pretty darn good track record. If I'm vetting out all the choices of what do to...I keep coming back to ...I trust the guys in the lab. And Gambler (I'm only having fun with you...so don't get the hair up on the back of your neck) while I do love to fish and catch Atlantic salmon, If I want the best opportunity to catch one in the Great Lakes other then Gaspe', Norway, Russia or Iceland, I'd be standing in the ST. Mary's rapids. I KNOW we aren't creating a world class sport fishery by only loading 250k salmon in....if we could then we could reduce the stocking of many other species, and have room for more different fish like Coaster Brook trout....which you should be all over since you are a Char lover. And lastly my friend the Biologist Gilly. What's the issue if some body chooses to fish on a private stretch of river. Does that mean everybody who goes Elk, Deer, Moose and Bear hunting on a private ranch is wrong as well. Or PAYS to lease up land to hunt whitetails on...posts it and doesn't let anybody on. I choose to fish there because I want a shot at the freshest kings, silvers, and steelhead coming in from the lake, because my style of fly fishing is looking for biters that will chase a fly. And with plenty of room to fish. And that with river walkers, those that are gigging Salmon get run off the property. So if I want to spend the dollars to put myself in those conditions what business is it of yours to comment? The DSR is like listening to a radio station or TV program. If you don't like what you are watching or listening to... change the channel. Nobody is putting a gun to anybody's head and making them stop in there an pay. You can easily drive by. Gilly stay away from things you know nothing about....like your statement that Atlantic Salmon and Brown trout NEVER nest together. ....really?

Longline there isn't doubt that king salmon generate a ton interest. But parking lots are full in the middle of Jan on a weekend. Believe me I wish they weren't. Oak orchard in November and the tiny trib just east of there have 100's of anglers on them from as far away as Colorado and Montana and they aren't here to fish salmon. It's off the chain. It's a different breed of angler to Gamblers point once the salmon crowd leaves but don't kid yourself that these people don't have expensive gear and spend tons of money. I used to fish alone on the week of thanks giving. Now I can't find a place to park that week. Take a drive from pen field at the iron to the oak on a weekend in November and tell me that it isn't busy. Now go to rivers east of here shoulder to shoulder. This doesn't mean it's desirable it just points to the fact an awful lot of people are interested in fish other than king salmon. Management of the entire species population is crucial Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

And you fired the first round at closing streams during the seasonal fishing. We can do that and let's limit lake fishing to say three days a week. Just as ridiculous. Not thinking the businesses that see a million five anglers hours On one river are giving up that kind of green. This year the DEC will be doing the entire east to west trib usage Sept through April. The numbers will be staggering and the economic value will be indisputable. But as I believe a strong 12 month a year usage urges managers to focus on the entire lineup. Can't discount the interest in other species after the salmon are dead. Just as nobody is stopping fishing on an outing on the lake if they can't locate salmon. Interest in the entire lineup even if a favorite is lacking helps DEC continue to get funding from the states cfo's to continue the program. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Yeah Vince I'm fishing in front of white tails in the lower parts of rivers and witnessing white tails coming in from the estuary. So fish are entering the river in the shape one normally see them weeks after spawning suggesting they stayed way later in the lake or embayment. Which is not the norm in lower stages of rivers I've been fishing. the pictures of fish are of fish who look like several weeks in a river when they've just arrived . So as I witnessed last year fish are arriving much later then normal where there has been plenty of Cfs. 2013 fish ran in a puddle of water in August. Warm winter and easy summer. Now two years in a row hard winters cold eastly summers fishing running late. Many factors are probably involved. Could it be diet maybe but I'd wager the weather conditions set the stage to much of a coincidence. Don' forget the American and red breasted merganser heavy predation on our tribs in early spring as smolts are n shore. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

ha Gambler maybe I'm just hard headed. Thanks for the update Hairy. I thought the regs had changed to lower limits on tribs and the lake. Sent from my iPhone using Lake Ontario United

Vince while I'm sure you've done all those things...as have I.....including planting 1000's of trees to create better spawning habitat, volunteering for pen programs at the Oak, Sandy and the Genny, organizing and running dozens of stream clean ups, and habitat improvement. I'm not disagreeing that trout and salmon numbers are down, but the impact of salmon numbers being down when the lake gets 1.7 million planted and probably more like 2.1 million.... and millions more that hatch naturally annually even if a low % add to the fishable population ...VS a stocking of 600 to 700k steelhead and even lessor amounts of Brown trout, isn't equitable. You aren't reading me very well if you think I'm trying to divide anglers, When my message all along is to be unified with our eye on the ball on the entire watershed salmonid fishery. The division is only focusing on King Salmon, and my point is, you aren't going to get the ear of the feds and DEC in that direction. How's that working so far? You are getting nothing back from them are you? Except more of the same. They are maxed out on Salmon. Nobody's bringing 50 million dollars to build another hatchery. BUT that doesn't mean other methods and decisions and management actions can't relieve a down turn in success. In Reality there isn't an "easy button" to push with out consequences that could tear it all down. The data tells us it's just NOT one element that has slowed things down. I don't believe in a magic bullet. So you're a predominate lake angler, and today I spend most of my time on tribs, So what? We're both still fishing. I love fishing for King Salmon....on the lake, not so much in a river. If the fish you fish for in open water From April through July were black and half dead would you be targeting them there as well? I still want all species of salmon and trout fisheries to be healthy and sustainable. There isn't just ONE button to push. It's not going to be ONLY a bait fish problem. So while shutting down some tribs, that take the almighty dollar from the communities nine months of the year, let's stop having a tournament every weekend, that just takes fish out for personal $$$$$. I looked at results on many of these tournaments where boats were bringing in small fish to get on the board. Two year olds that will never be three and fours. We can Pi$$ on each others Chero's all day long if you want, or the fishing community can get together and fix this. But it will never happen in a trib VS Lake environment. River anglers have just as much right to enjoy the environment that is this fishery as any lake angler and vice versa...when ever they have the opportunity to simply go fishing. ...and you show me where I've ever stated it any other way. You for sure have a personal vested interest in having lots of King Salmon around for your business, And I get that, I was in this business for a long time as well. and yes my clients loved to catch salmon, and I caught them by the 100's every year. But it simply isn't the only game in town. And can't be managed that way.

Hairy.....for clarification what is the Steelhead regs these days on the Ontario tribs. I haven't been over in about six years. Have they been reduced from 5 to 2? And did they make the lake and Tribs the same?

Any fish that is mishandled is obviously in danger. But a group of scientists in BC discovered how problematic handling was for big hearty steelhead they were putting radio tags on. They bumped around the rocks while putting the GPS devices on. A few hours later the fish were no longer moving. They recaptured a number of these dead fish, and did autopsies on them to discover blunt force trauma that could have only come from handling.

Yeah Gambler we can find a skew in any and all data, but in the world of Math and Science we have to accept at least an 80/20 rule. Because in a landscape this large there is no way the data is going to be 100% accurate. I know dam well a lot of people fish off shore from Rochester West, and have access to the majority of Steelhead. And the key is not just harvesting a fish. because now we have studies of high mortality of Steehead if not handled properly. So this isn't just a boat angling problem, but surely a river problem as well. You can't let these fish bang around on the deck of a boat, or rocks on a trib shore line. The experience of scientists who have discovered this problem is the fish appears to be completely healthy and revived, but hours after release they die from blunt trauma to internal organs. We can challenge the data if we can back it up with specific facts, but saying all the time they weren't in your port isn't going to work. You are going to hear this Spring from Jana, that they watched boat after boat pass her crews by while they begged boaters to at least come close enough to tell them what they caught. And they didn't. So now we have a stalemate, and get nothing done. As stated before, if anglers are willing to keep TRUE accurate creel findings from their boats and offer a log book to DEC and USGS, that might help. But if they don't trust us, the program gains us no knowledge. This is only my opinion, but I don't see how Charter Operators don't have a program with DEC to feed their daily catch rates. It's in their best interest to do so. BUT they have to be accurate and honest. I know they are worried about being audited, but if you are doing business in a legal ethical manner what are you worried about....