Lucky13

I could argue that there is no proposed reduction, this is maintenance of the status quo from last year, despite recommendations from many fisheries scientists that further reductions be made. The Great Lakes Fisheries Commission is involved in the management of all the lakes and has been for years. Ed Sander, former chair of the Monroe County Fisheries Advisory Board, was one LO rep for years. This is not new. Point by point (my bold) on the DEC position paper: "In 2017, "larger" size Alewife that support both Alewife spawning and food for large Chinook salmon are primarily composed of age-2 (yellow bars; 2015 year class) and age-5 fish (black bars; 2012 year class). As expected, catches of age-3 (2014 year class; red bars) and age-4 (2013 year class; blue bars) Alewife were poor. The extreme long, cold winters of 2013/2014 and 2014/2015 contributed to the poor 2013 and 2014 year classes, and these poor year classes will continue to affect the overall stability of Lake Ontario's Alewife population for several more years. The adult Alewife population in 2018 will be composed primarily of Alewife ages 2, 3, and 6. The Lake Ontario Committee is cautiously optimistic that the 2018 Alewife population can support both successful spawning (given favorable weather conditions) and prey demand from Chinook Salmon, Lake Trout and other trout and salmon." If you go back and look at the age/size graph, you will notice that a couple of the colors on the key barely show on the graph. These are the "missing" year classes. You also need to remember that these data are from spring trawls, before this entire summer of chowing by all those mature salmon you've been catching has further reduced the year classes. Biologically, Adult (3 year old) kings that are going from 8-15 lbs to 25-30 lbs in a few months, focus on large herring; captains I have spoken with have indicated that they don't see the little ones in the stomachs of the 3 year old kings (at least this year). The other trout and salmon, younger kings, cohos, steelhead, lakers and browns will chow on the smaller ones, and the trout will chow on other baitfish, as will the large kings if there is nothing else to eat, but that is going to further reduce the remaining population in each year class. Reduce these residual fish enough, you get a reduction in the following year's fish because there are insufficient remaining adult herring to reproduce a strong year class. Continue this, mean weight of returning adult Kings will start to drop off, numbers also. Continue it long enough, you could see a reduction in size and numbers like in Michigan, or a catastrophic and sudden collapse as was experienced in Huron. While there is a degree of uncertainty to the magnitude of these effects due to errors of measurement, the past experience in Lake Michigan , where much more dramatic stocking cuts have been made in an effort to stave off collapse, with questionable effect, and Lake Huron, where the fisheries scientists I have read indicate the pacific salmon fishery is done, have to inform the decisions of responsible stewards. Or, as Andy Todd has suggested (my interpretation, I don't want to put words in his mouth), we could dump the science, just stock a bunch of fish and let the chips fall where they fall. This will save a lot of monitoring dollars. But if the biologists are correct and the "death spiral" starts to form, you can't exactly come around wagging fingers and blaming anyone but yourselves. With a good hatch in spring 2018 (data will show in 2019) and assuming there was a good hatch in 2017 (YOY data from 2018 will show whether this happened or not), increase might be warranted, but I'm going to trust the pHD's to make that determination!

Somehow I don't see people going to the hassle it takes to get an MS and even a pHD as agents of the government out to get me. These guys are the first to admit that they work from limited datasets and have to do some interpolation, but that is the best information anyone has, other than some big blips on graphs, which are to many far superior to actual scientific methods LOL. So, Henry Bud, where are these "nets teeming with bait" in the data presented lakewide. In 2015, they had one massive haul in the Canadian survey. This creates some " skue" to the dataset, but the Canadian average and other data are still less than half of what was measured in 1999 for 1 yr olds, and less than half of what there was for 2+ in 2000. Based on those numbers, a really conservative manager might have proposed cuts more like 50% of the 2015 allocation. And Jerry, please show me some evidence of the cut being a budget matter, and if the budget were threatened why hasn't LOU raised the hue and cry and run to the legislators for restoration of funding the way many have for overriding the fisheries managers? Steve and Andy have explained right along that this conservative reduction is designed to take pressure off the bait while still maintaining the excellent trophy fishery for kings, a pretty tough tightrope to walk. Maybe I missed something in these position papers (both still on the DEC Website if anyone cares to actually read this stuff! ) and the meetings, that you guys can all read between the lines and find out. The Pens do give more bang for the buck, so they have a better handle on what is out there with pen fish then with direct stocked, unless of course local predators chow all the penfish as soon as they are released. And the pen projects are popular, so elimination of that just creates more animosity. These guys have a tough job, trying to reconcile the science with a bunch of "stakeholders" who all the time cry "More, more, more!" And yes, I think the numbers of fish stocked could get permanently reduced if the bait does not come back as forecast. But we have been told it will get raised once this “hole” moves through the system, and my experience of the management in place now is that they are committed to the FCO’s, which specify stocking levels in Appendix C. Please also remember that the GLFC Stakeholders group had it clarified last spring that there is no intention of changing the FCO’s in the near future, this is a time consuming process that is not necessary unless there is long term change to the system. If this alewife decline is sustained and there is a threat to the overall objective of maintaining a trophy king fishery, I would expect a permanent reduction in stocking levels, but if, as they forecast, reduction in predator demand combined with a few good year classes results in restored balance, stocking will return to the levels indicated in the FCO’s. The 2017 Alewife Survey (Figure 2) Here's an alternative scenario, let's stick another 20% additional Kings, and raise that another 20% for 10 years after that. I'll likely be too old to enjoy the Atlantic Salmon fishery we'll have 20 or so years from now, because the quickest way to eliminate the king from the Lake Ontario predator mix is to stock a whole bunch more, crash the bait entirely, and then start over with what God put here to begin with, Lake Trout and Atlantic Salmon.

If you take the time to look at the graph, there is a lot of overlap from year to year in size of alewife, but there is definitely a two year period where the numbers are very low. Of course the biologists aging data does not trump your superior knowledge and x ray vision. Andy Todd from OMNR did offer an alternative last year, they can stop all the science and just dump a bunch of fish in, and if the average size plummets, oh, well, you've still got a box full. At least if it does not collapse totally. And if the alewife crashed totally there would be no need to stock all the control fish, they could focus on native species reestablishment.

It is possible that they took that unintentional reduction into account in not making further adjustments to the numbers, i.e. an additional cut this year. Many of the non-stakeholder advisors to the LO Committee in the scientific community had indicated a desire for greater reductions to improve the likelihood of an alewife rebound. Most of the SNAFU last spring was in Region 8, and management there has pledged vigilance to prevent a reoccurrence in spring 2018.

It needs to be emphasized that last year when the reduction was established and based on the trawl data, the LO Committee predicted good fishing for this season and into the 2018 season. The two year gap in adult alewife hits the fan in 2019 and 2020. The concern is that there are both enough large bait to support the growth of mature king salmon, and that there is an adequate adult population to spawn a large hatch for future years. It is necessary to separate current conditions and results and plan for the future. If pre-2017 predator stocking levels were maintained, and the adult population of bait is insufficient to both feed the kings and make it to spawn the following season, the long term bait picture gets dismal, and we could start the slide that Michigan is experiencing. If these very conservative adjustments have the desired effect, long term size of the adults should maintain, and the alewife population numbers as reflected in the trawls should return to the pre 2013 levels on a regular basis. If there are too many alewife as a result of a couple of years like the 2016 YOY, we see some deads along shore, but we will not see the conditions experienced before the Kings were introduced with huge windrows, the overall bait numbers are way down from the uncontrolled populations of the 50's and 60's that made the alewife such a nuisance. As the LO Committee has pointed out, when reductions were taken in prior years, it did not effect the overall catch rate, conditions on the lake have more of an effect on good or bad catch rate than the numbers stocked. To see a " hole" in the population like shows in that graph and do nothing in response would be kind of like hearing that there was a good chance that a hurricane was coming and not boarding up your house or heading inland.

I apologize for the rant and disparagement of your sportsmanship. It would have been helpful to know you were in the tidal portion of the river, below Lake St Francis. I erroneously assumed you were above the dams because the forum deals with Lake Ontario. The area in question contains both Lake and Atlantic Sturgeon, and one may be kept if it is between 80 cm (32") and 130 cm (52"). But just posting a picture without the full locational information could bring on a stampede of people into the NYS or Ontario waters looking for these big fish, where they are still threatened and efforts are still underway at restoration. They were wiped out in the Genesee River by overharvest, and they used them for fuel on the boats that travelled across the lake to Coburg, Ontario. There is a fairly successful resotoration project there, but we are always having to remind people to leave them alone.

How does one legally fish for sturgeon? Looks awesome! There is NO STURGEON FISHERY IN NYS OR ONTARIO WATERS OF THE GL. There are some west coast states where you can legally target sturgeon. From DEC: " DEC Advises Anglers to be on the Lookout for Lake Sturgeon in the Great Lakes and Oneida Lake Anglers should be aware of spawning lake sturgeon in tributaries of the Great Lakes, the St. Lawrence River, Finger Lakes and Oneida Lake, the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) today advised. "The return of lake sturgeon to spawn in New York state's tributaries reflects well on efforts by DEC and our partners to restore this valuable native species," said DEC Commissioner Joe Martens. "These fish have been part of New York's natural landscape for thousands of years and through sound management they will remain here for future generations to enjoy. It's extremely important that anglers fishing these waters are aware of the presence of spawning sturgeon and take all measures to avoid catching them." Last season, DEC staff received numerous reports of lake sturgeon (Acipenser fulvescens) caught by anglers around the state. Lake sturgeon are listed as a threatened species in New York; therefore, there is no open season for the fish and possession is prohibited. Anglers who unintentionally hook one should follow these practices to ensure the fish is returned to the water unharmed: Avoid bringing the fish into the boat if possible. Use pliers to remove the hook; sturgeon are almost always hooked in the mouth. Always support the fish horizontally. Do not hold sturgeon in a vertical position by their head, gills or tails, even for taking pictures. Never touch their eyes or gills. Minimize their time out of the water. Anglers are much more likely to encounter sturgeon in May and June when the fish gather to spawn on clean gravel, cobble shoals and in stream rapids. Lake sturgeon populations are recovering as a result of protection and stocking efforts by DEC and partners. Since 1994, lake sturgeon have been periodically stocked by DEC into Black Lake, Cayuga Lake, the Genesee River, Oneida Lake, the Oswegatchie River, Raquette River, St. Lawrence River, and St. Regis River. Lake sturgeon are often tagged as part of ongoing studies conducted by state or federal agencies and their partners. If a tagged sturgeon is found, it's important to follow the reporting instructions on the tag or contact a regional DEC office for assistance. Lake sturgeon are an ancient fish that first appeared during the Upper Cretaceous period 136 million years ago when dinosaurs still walked the earth. Lake sturgeon are one of three species of sturgeon native to New York, the others being shortnose sturgeon and Atlantic sturgeon. Lake sturgeon are native to the Mississippi River Basin, Great Lakes Basin and Hudson Bay region of North America. They are the largest fish native to the Great Lakes, growing up to seven or more feet in length and weighing up to 300 pounds. Male sturgeon live as long as 55 years and females live as long as 80 to 150 years. Lake sturgeon were once abundant in New York, but commercial fishing, dam building and habitat loss decimated populations. Today they can still be found in Lake Erie, Niagara River, Lake Ontario, St. Lawrence River, Genesee River, Grasse River, Oswegatchie River, Black Lake, Lake Champlain, Cayuga Lake, Oneida Lake, Oneida River, Seneca River, Oswego River and Cayuga Canal. For further information on lake sturgeon in New York and other threatened or endangered fish can be found on the DEC website: Lake Sturgeon Fact Sheet Endangered & Threatened Fishes of New York Lake Sturgeon Restoration

Most of those species, you would not normally encounter, they are small minnow type fish that are not sought after.

The St Lawrence is zone 20, and there is no open season for sturgeon. It is also illegal to target closed season fish in Canada, C+R or not. The sturgeon restoration project is not inexpensive, and the last thing it needs is low lifes masquerading as sportsmen potentially injuring these fish for their personal gratification and "bucket lists." From the LOU policy for the site: Lake Ontario United (LOU) is a socially responsible community who strongly supports the efforts of the Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) and the common goal of eliminating the illegal snagging of trout & salmon and promotion of ethical sport fishing techniques. Snatching/Snagging means taking fish that have not taken or attempted to take bait or artificial lure into their mouth, by impaling the fish with one or more hooks or similar devices, whether or not baited, into any part of their body. Snatching is indicated by repeated or exaggerated jerking motions of the fishing rod. Snagging, lifting, and single hook snagging are types of snagging. To help do our environmental duty and keep our precious tributaries clean of illegal activity, we ask all LOU members to report any environmental violation witnessed. To do this, please call 1-800-TIPP DEC (1-800-847-7332) or email [email protected] with the subject title "Report an environmental violation". The DEC will always keep your identity safe and confidential. DEC Regional Office Directory: http://www.dec.ny.gov/about/558.html A special thank you to all LOU members who aid in the prevention of illegal activity each and every day of the year. It is the combined efforts of individuals like yourself and the DEC that can really make a difference. I think the owner and sponsors of this site would agree that targeting endangered and threatened species rates the same consideration and reponde as snagging illegally. For one thing, sturgeon don't die after spawning, take 10+ years for the males and a lot longer than the females to reach spawning size and can live for more than 50 years. LEAVE THE STURGEON ALONE!

"Endangered and threatened fish It is illegal to fish for, or possess fish that are officially listed by DEC as endangered or threatened: Endangered: silver chub, bluebreast darter, deepwater sculpin, gilt darter, pugnose shiner, round whitefish, shortnose sturgeon, Atlantic sturgeon and spoonhead sculpin. Threatened: eastern sand darter, lake chubsucker, lake sturgeon, northern (longear) sunfish, mooneye, gravel chub, banded sunfish, longhead darter, swamp darter, spotted darter and mud sunfish. Any unintentionally caught threatened or endangered fish species must be unhooked and released immediately. They may not be handled for any purpose other than removing the hook and placing them back into the water." Intentionally seeking sturgeon is bad for the fish and a violation of the law.

I don't think that there is any possibility currently of cutting king salmon, regardless of what noise was made by some stakeholders. It would require a major rethinking of policy by the Great Lakes Committee, and they are currently focused on maintenance of the trophy king fishery. I think that if there were a bait collapse like in the upper GL, the discussions could go that way, but they are working hard to prevent a bait collapse, and the Fish Community Objectives emphasize the trophy king as the top pelagic predator, with fishable populations of browns, cohoes, and steelhead, with the lake trout as the top benthic predator.

I have no great love for the kings, but can understand the necessity of maintaining the population for alewife control. I do know a lot of tributary anglers, and non anglers in the scientific community, that would be happy if the kings went packing, but I don't think the trib anglers understand that if the kings went away, so would the steelhead, probably. I do not want to see Lake Ontario evolve into another Lake Michigan with 10 lbers the norm, or, worse yet, Huron, where it is unlikely that they will ever re-establish the fishery they had, and these actions are implemented tp reduce the risk of that, so getting the word out is a good thing.

The graph is the result of the trawls. Robust 5 year old numbers, very weak 3,4,6, and 7.

They are native to the lake, a federal priority for reestablishment, and grow slowly and eat other than alewives, They are the top benthic predator. Just because you see no value in them does not mean they have no value, there are a lot of folks who target them if nothing else is hitting. Cutting all of them would likely not have the effect on stabilizing the bait that the conservative cut to them and kings will have. There are a lot of people who would not loose any sleep at all if the king population collapsed completely.

. 2015 is out there, but is not a huge population. 2014 and 2013 are the " hole." ( Ages 3 and 4, the red and blue bars) Caution is required to insure both adequate adult spawners and adequate adult "chow" for the kings.

Also need a couple of more good hatches to back 2016 up, and need to see the 2013-15 "hole" in the population work itself out of there. Unless high water effects alewife spawning, it should have been good in 2017, my back says it was a really mild winter, except for that one heavy storm mid-march.

Here's the official announcement with the correct times and locations: http://www.dec.ny.gov/press/press.html DEC Announces Lake Ontario Fisheries Meetings Current Salmon and Trout Stocking Levels will be Maintained in 2018 The New York State Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) today announced that the public will have the opportunity to learn and ask questions about the upcoming 2018 Lake Ontario salmon and trout stocking. Public meetings to gather input will be held in Oswego, Niagara, and Monroe counties in September. "Lake Ontario and its tributaries provide world-class salmon and trout angling opportunities," Commissioner Basil Seggos said. "Salmon and trout fishing in Lake Ontario continues to be outstanding and DEC remains committed to ensuring that the ecological, recreational and economic benefits of Lake Ontario's sport fisheries are sustained through management practices based on cutting-edge science." Survey results in 2016 revealed poor survival of Alewife produced in 2013 and 2014, which will result in negative impacts on the adult population of this important prey species in future years. To protect the valuable fishery, the DEC and the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources and Forestry (OMNRF) adjusted stocking levels for Chinook Salmon and Lake Trout down 20 percent in 2017 to reduce predator demand on adult Alewife. Alewife survey results from 2017 confirmed the ongoing impacts of poor Alewife production in 2013 and 2014 on the overall population, but also revealed record numbers of young Alewife produced in 2016. The record numbers of Alewife produced in 2016 is promising, but additional strong Alewife reproduction and survival is needed in upcoming years to rebuild the adult population. In an ongoing effort to effectively manage Lake Ontario fisheries for long-term benefits, DEC and OMNRF will maintain the 2017 stocking targets in 2018. The combined 2018 salmon and trout stocking total will exceed 4.6 million fish, and managers are optimistic that good fishing will continue. During these public meetings, staff from DEC will present information and the public will have the opportunity to ask questions. Overview for Discussions regarding 2018 Salmon and Trout Stocking Levels in Lake Ontario is available on DEC's website. Members of the public that cannot attend a meeting can provide comments via email to: [email protected]. For further information, please contact Steve LaPan, New York Great Lakes Fisheries Section Head, at the Cape Vincent Fisheries Research Station, (315) 654-2147. The meeting dates and locations are: Monday, September 11: 6:30 p.m. - 9:00 p.m. at the Donald Schleiter Lodge and Pavillion, 199 East Manitou Road in Braddock Bay Park, Rochester, Monroe County. Tuesday, September 12: 6:30 p.m. - 9:00 p.m. at the Pulaski High School auditorium, 4624 Salina Street, Pulaski, Oswego County. Wednesday, September 13: 6:30 p.m. - 9:00 p.m. at the Cornell Cooperative Extension Building, 4487 Lake Avenue, Lockport, Niagara County.

I had other plans but I cancelled them when I saw the schedule! See you then.

I never thought of you as conservative, just reasonable, open minded, and scientific!

Yes, I think your idea of a "token" increase to help create positive spin has merit, but please remember that I'm one of the people who worries that these levels of adjustment may actually be insufficient to restore stability to the herring population. I contacted MCFAB about changing their meeting so that members of that board can attend. It should be an interesting meeting if we can get more people out than were there last year.