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Lucky13

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Everything posted by Lucky13

  1. I doubt he was running from Otisco Lake to the St Lawrence to fish in the same night. Since he lives in Binghamton, it is a safe bet that he is referring to either the Susquehanna or the Chenango. There is good musky fishing in the Susquehanna that he could get tired of, great smallmouth fishing, and lots of walleyes, although, as he is saying, not too many monsters. There is no reason the muskies could not swim up the Chenango, either. Finally, since he is speaking of shore fishing, walking along casting lures, I go with those two as there are numerous places to access and walk the shoreline on both, the SL, not so much that I am aware of.
  2. "Stepping back a bit from this thread I have to admit this is the closest thing I have seen on here in the way of a truly intellectually based argument with supportive data for each side of it. Too bad our elected officials, the IJC and other decision makers haven't done their "homework" to this extent regardless of the "correct" interpretation" Les, I attended nearly all the public meetings that were held in the Rochester Area prior to implementation of 2014. The background data collection and analysis was handled by some of the top hydrologists/ hydraulic engineers in the world. And there were two prior iterations of 2014 that were rejected, before this plan was developed. Even Dr. Frank Sciramamano, who was on the Board of Control and was a vigorous and outspoken critic of 2014, has stated that the water levels of the last three years were NOT caused by 2014, and in fact were lower than would have occurred without the Dam and seaway project, and that under the prior plan, identical conditions would have obtained because of the limitations on discharge caused by the Ottawa River " freshet" and the impacts of discharge on the ponded areas downstream in the river. The Lakeshore property owners predicted damages would occur, and no one disagreed at these public meetings, occasional higher water would obtain under the plan and the "wrong" wind event could cause problems. Derek Glance, who was the IJC commissioner appointed by President Obama, told me when I spoke to her that the additional damages were mitigated by the additional protections lakeshore landowners had received from the earlier plan, which kept the levels in the narrower range, and I protested that that was NOT going to console a person standing in their living room in ankle deep water. At one meeting where a lakefront owner asked about compensation for damages, Don Zelazny, Great Lakes Section chief for the NYSDEC Division of Water, agreed that some mechanism for compensation needed to be identified and put in place, but that didn't occur before the plan was adopted, and the IJC did not see that as their mandate. It is a fact that if you build on a floodplain, occasionally the flood plain will be on what you built. IMO, this is not such a problem on the Canadian side because the localities in Canada have not allowed construction so close to the shore, but tax revenue is a heavy temptation for the mini governments of our home rule state, and the courts in NYS have apparently decided that the public trust doctrine only applies to tidally influenced waters, so the public lost access to the shoreline available to residents of the upper Great Lakes, and "Lakefront property" became a big inducement for local developers, town boards and school districts. I am not at all surprised that shipping and hydropower come in first and second in the operation of the Seaway, that is what it was built for to begin with. "The seaway opened in 1959 and cost Canadian $470 million, $336.2 million of which was paid by the Canadian government(Wikipedia)." I don't think that kind of money was spent for shoreline protection in the 50's.
  3. If you are using a float suit as a boat after November 1, do you have to wear a life jacket too?
  4. It needs to be remembered that Bob O'Gorman, before he retired, made a presentation on Lake Trout at a SOL meeting where he showed data that indicated that because of predation, (as Captain Perlioni points out) lake trout stocked at a density of less than (I recall, but it could have been higher) 50,000 per site, didn't survive to adulthood. The more that were stocked at a site, over the critical number, the more that could escape the predators. At that time, Bob indicated that while numbers stocked would remain at numbers they were introducing, the number of stocking sites would be reduced to try to get a significant survivor population. As Vince also points out, sites that made the cut were in areas where they had found evidence of natural reproduction. They might also come back on the argument about no LT stocking in MC, by saying that they shore stock browns and Randolph strain (domestic) rainbows in two Monroe County sites, and if they increased lakers, they would have to reduce those stockings. Then it would be a choice of which bread and butter you like, because brown fishing in the spring in MC is about as good as it gets on the Lake.
  5. Was there data on water temperatures throughout the year, indicating a suitable water supply with a sufficient and stable volume? My recollection is that NYSDEC vetted water sources pretty thoroughly prior to building the Altmar hatchery and the SR/Beaverdam Brook site had the best source, despite the problems they have had with it since. Until there are reliable indication that the bait is out of the woods and bouncing back, I doubt either NYS or Ontario will consider stocking more fish of any species, and if there were going to be increases, it would only be fair, and working within the FCO's to increase King numbers before Trout got bumped up.
  6. Gee, Guilty, it was based on experience, but I know a lot of people have reading comprehension problems.
  7. I don't think you qualify for welfare if you make $15.00 an hour. My daughter is making less than that and receives no handouts.
  8. SO all the captains who maintain that the reason they can't release them because they are too stressed from fighting the lead all the way up and due to rapidly changing thermal regimes are making all that up, and they are actually targeting them instead of catching them incidentally to targeting Kings on all those Junk rigs? Gee, all you would have to do is take the cheater off once the two were in the boat, or move, and then no mortality with release. Really, you guys should get your stories straight, your feet will be full of holes pretty soon!
  9. Everyone has different priorities. A long cold winter will definitely facilitate draining the pond for the shoreline property owners. But if it means a couple more sammins in yer box, let's let them keep flooded! Like the "why did they drop it in May-June", oh, well, Montreal was under 10 feet of water, but lets make it 14 to dry out the north coast! I'm not clear on why they have been lowering it lately though, unless to make it possible for the last of the ships to get through before it closes for the winter.
  10. Another illustration is the Brookfield announcements of flow on the Salmon River. They open the dam at x time, the outflow reaches Altmar at x+1 hours, Pineville at x+2 hours, Pulaski at x+3 hours, and the estuary at x+4 hours. The pressures in the river change before the level comes up, we could always tell it was going to go up in the winter because the fish would get active and bite before the rise, but the levels do not rise in reaction to that pressure until the water actually arrives. Why time of travel studies are conducted, to determine how long it will take the additional water to get to various points in a system. Also, in a closed system, the velocity will increase to increase the discharge. This is why the St Lawrence Board of Control can discharge at a much higher rate when there is ice cover on the river, the ice closes the system so the velocities, and the associated discharge, can be increased without the accompanying rise in stage that would flood the River and the " ponds" downstream in an open system. Pray for early and late ice this winter!
  11. Government budgets are funny things. I worked for a music store I Binghamton after college, and repaired a lot of instruments for the Vestal School system. They would bring me a guitar that had been reduced virtually to tooth picks from abuse, playing El Kabong on the bus, whatever, and ask that I make it playable again. I would point out that a new instrument would be far less expensive, and would be easier for a student to play, and the response was always, "there is no money in the line for new equipment, but plenty of money in the repair line, so just fix that one." Labor is always the biggest cost in a budget, the hardest to get increased, but the least likely to be cut as well due to public perceptions and dislike for layoffs. 40 years is a long time for a lot of projects, most companies and governments work on a 25 year depreciation scale, so the folks in Altmar have done a great job of keeping that facility going. And while the operating budget may be near deficit, the capital budget may have included this upgrade for some time, and it will get paid for over some time. I know when it came time to finish the upgrades to the display area a few years ago, hatchery staff did the painting rather than go though the long drawn out process of contracting a painting company, got it done quickly, and likely for less money than would have been involved in a government contract.
  12. My bad, I realized that when I reread your post. And it is my impression that West Virginia may produce the lowest life poachers in the Continental United States. Look at what they did to Sandy Creek a few years back. I almost never go fly fishing in the flyfishing zones in Altmar because so many of the "anglers" in there have too much shot, too long leaders, and are lining and lifting so many of their fish. It is fun to watch when Encon comes out of Beaverdam Brook in their drift boat and checks rigs, but I haven't heard of that happening in some time.
  13. I have a friend who depends on the river fishery to pay the mortgage on the motel he runs in Pulaski. Charter captains who continue to "catch and release" dead steelhead, or creel them, when they cannot find salmon, or are the repeated " incidental catch" of using deep junk lines are definitely affecting his bottom line. Last year, with a fair steelhead run in the Salmon River, he had a full house for Thanksgiving weekend; this year, one angler in one room. Who is this " Trib Leadership Group". A lot of us, Dave, Ron Bersteine, Fred Kuepper from DSR, myself, and a few others, met well over 10 years ago to try to put together a tributary group like the Charter captains organizations, under the facilitation of Dave MacNeill from Sea Grant, and we could never reach a consensus on exactly what we wanted, so the effort was abandoned. Since then, the organization out of Albany was formed, but not everyone on the tribs is a member of that bunch. Maybe Dave Chilson had a thought on his own. Maybe he sees that it is a potential black eye for his derby if people decide that it is not cool to chase around the lake all day c+ring fish that can't recover in an attempt to get that big one for the derby. Changes to regulations ARE temporary, all it takes to change regulation is the same process we are now in. Changing the law is different, that has to happen in the legislature. But of course, the Charter Organizations have a lot of experience of running to their legislators. I keep hearing from the west end captains at the GLFC panel meetings that they don't target steelhead, they are an incidental catch while they are deep trolling for salmon. So if the Salmon limit goes to five, they will "incidentally" kill more steelhead while going for that 20th salmon for a party of four, unless someone either starts employing some of the release techniques that have been mandated on the west coast for rockfish and some other deepwater denizens, or the captains abandon the heavy junk lines that require them to prolong the fight up through the thermocline and make successful release less likely.
  14. Thinking back, Jerry Barnhart didn't know a whole lot about the Lake Ontario fishery when he became Director of Fisheries, but you don't grow up without some background in fishing and hunting when you grow up in a family where on of the famous pools on the Beaverkill River is named after your father. And while I know that Lake Ontario is the Piscatorial Center of the Universe, New York is a big state, there are lots of other fisheries for DEC to deal with.
  15. "especially with certain jobs going to political appointees with zero background in fishing and hunting." OK, Gil,. I'll give you Basil Segos, but below there in the COC, could you be more specific? Last I knew Pat Retzinger was in charge of fishing and hunting, and she came up through the ranks (she may have retired). And I'm pretty sure I was seeing Steve Lapan, still in a technical position, at some of the early meetings back in the 90's, so he didn't walk out of a NYC caucus, and I recall some reports and papers on Pike and Muskellunge in the ST Lawrence that he is credited on. Ditto Steve Hurst, who would be out fishing with us sometimes except he is always so busy that he has to get right back to Albany, but he does show his face at more meetings than anyone I remember. So who are these political appointments in the hunting and fishing areas? Please also remember that employment below the Management and Professional level is governed by Civil Service Law, so it is not as easy to slide people into positions as you might think, and they eventually have to score in the top three on a test on their area of proficiency, and even M+P's have to go through what is called an unassembled test, which is a review of qualifications, so lack of proper degrees and experience comes out in that wash.
  16. LL Bean didn't sell fly fishing equipment back then. And you were much more likely to encounter a big martin automatic on an ugly stick or a fenwick than Orvis tackle, and the pro lifters with money all lusted after their Fin Nors. Lifting has been around since the Rochester and Buffalo pirates started back when the runs first came into Naples. But between the state telling people the fish would not hit, because the biology says they cannot "feed" or digest food, and the industry supporting a fishery based on hauling a trunkfull of fish back to wherever they muphered from so they can smoke and can them and eat a couple of pounds a week every week of the year, we got this sHyteshow, and now we're dealing with those kids that got educated back then to hate Encon and think it is all right to harvest anything any way they want, so a lot of it continues. Oh, and then there are the "guides" who brought flossing back from Alaska, and taught it to their clients. I didn't go out on the LO tribs where snagging was legal until after the November 15 close of snagging, but I ran into plenty of the guys with pirate hats and flyrods using the 17 lb mono , the 1/0 hooks and the Slugload of double ought buck, with a pea size piece of sponge, on plenty of non-snagging tribs back then, too. I stopped going to the Oak, because I got a big ache missing Mark when I was there. Way too early to lose a guy like that, we could definitely use his sense of humor in these troubled times.
  17. It has no effect on discharge from the Niagara because it comes out of the Niagara into the tunnel and then returns to the Niagara after it is used for generation. It's not like it gets removed from the system, sent down the Alleghany or some other non GL river, it just gets used for power generation and then returned to the river.
  18. The lake was subject to more frequent high water events and more frequent low water events, many at nearly the magnitude of the current "high input from the immediate watershed coupled with much higher inflow from the upper great lakes" situation, prior to construction of the St Lawrence Seaway. The Sheet pile and concrete wall barriers along Edgemere Drive were built prior to the Seaway construction. Plan 2014 was formulated to allow more natural high and low water events than under the previous scenarios. If it had been rolled out during the drought years of the 2000's in the UGL, everyone would have been P+Ming about not being able to get their boats out in the late summer. An unfortunate juxtaposition of events that many of us warned of at the public meetings prior to the 2014 implementation, (or at least pointed out the needs for funding for compensation, because many of the landowners could reasonably call the impacts of 2014 a "taking," and the plan incorporated the somewhat bogus logic that the lower water enjoyed since the Seaway was built had an economic benefit that accrued to property owners earlier, and so negated the necessity of compensation for current damages.)
  19. Is this a manmade problem? Where are the controls on the inflow and outflow of Lake Michigan? As Dr. Wilcox has so eloquently stated in the past, when you build a house on a floodplain, you have to expect that sometimes the floodplain will be on the house. And if you choose to build on sand dunes, why should the general public be expected to pay for your loss if that oh so stable sand washes away?.
  20. The Lake is a big place, there is about 1/2 mile on each side of the Genesee. It can get very crowded very quickly. On smaller tributaries the overcrowding can lead to even more posting.
  21. GIl, DEC is not raising "millions of Kings" at SRH, recent peak number targeted was 1.8 million, and they have been shooting for 500,000 Chambers Creek steelhead (the domestics come from the Randolph Hatchery). When they are extremely successful, they have more so they go in also. DEC used to use a ballpark figure of 1 steelhead equals 10 kings in cost to raise, so even if you eliminated 1.8 million kings, you would only gain 180,000 steelhead going into the pond. I get accused of wanting the kings gone all the time, but if I really wanted the kings gone, I would be clamoring for them to raise king stocking to 3 million or so, crash the bait and start over. The worst thing for the steelheads getting to the rivers is a shortage of kings out in the lake, as Dave has stated. But the different indicators, which all appear to agree, says there is less food, so the pool of predators has to go down to reduce risk of a major collapse, and we all have to tighten out belts a little. This is why I, and Charter operators like Frank Sanza before he retired, have suggested for years that the orientation taken by the industry should be toward a trophy fishery rather than a "fill the larder" fishery, but throughout these years we've heard from many operators who don't care how big the fish are, as long as they can deliver the "full box." And as Dave has also stated, there is an awful lot of wailing going on about a fish that the Charter Operators on the Great Lakes Fishery Commission panel claim is only an incidental catch that they don't fish for. As to all this teeth gnashing about Trout Unlimited (I am not a member, although I was at one time), I checked the national Website, the NYS Council website, and the Seth Green (Rochester) Chapter website, and there is no mention of anything with these regulations anywhere on these sites. The local chapter has not even updated their site in about a year, and when I was a member, meetings usually drew maybe 20 people. Hardly a well organized conspiracy! And thanks, Bob, for spot burning the Genesee run, but with all this snow (we got quite a bit here in Rochester, and there is even more south) it will likely blow out soon, and while you may be hearing great things from Sandy, I'm hearing it is more like an ember heap of a run, hardly on fire, from a couple of guys who live on the creek. Also, considering the extremely limited access to Sandy considering its length, not a really good stream to be broadcasting all over the Interweb. Another hatchery does sound like a great idea for raising more fish, but the problem is not with the predators, it is a lack of bait to feed the predators. But if the bait bounces back, or Captain Vince is right and we see a massive alewife die off in late spring (I'm not counting winter kill), it would be good to identify a viable water source and affordable land that would accommodate a facility, and then if there are budgetary constraints, maybe it is time to start discussing a Lake Ontario stamp as a revenue source.
  22. They did drop the discharge in April and May and if my memory serves me (fairly) well, that was when the Ottawa River freshet hit and Montreal was under 10 feet of additional water, and large numbers of residents had to be evacuated.
  23. Did they have a "#44, but..."? Also sad to hear this news, I've been familiar with the store since starting to fish Naples in my teens, where else were you finding gold eagle claws, rubber eggs clusters, and wood grubs back before trout eggs became legal bait? I bought most of the materials for my Seth Green rig there, as well The best spoons ever created, to my Finger Lakes and Adirondack Lake fishing mind. RIP.
  24. I know it is off your point, but just for the record: ( from https://ijc.org/en/loslrb/watershed/flows?_ga=2.196245420.1473435394.1575125285-902741098.1551272481) Recorded Flows (Past Seven Days): Date Lake Ontario Outflow Lake Erie Outflow Net Total Supply* Ottawa River Outflow Nov 28 8,860 m³/s (312,900 cfs 7,890 m³/s (278,600 cfs) TBD* 2,140 m³/s (75,600 cfs) Nov 27 8,880 m³/s (313,600 cfs) 7,930 m³/s (280,000 cfs) 8,220 m³/s (290,300 cfs) 1,670 m³/s (59,000 cfs) Nov 26 8,860 m³/s (312,900 cfs) 7,190 m³/s (253,900 cfs) 8,220 m³/s (290,300 cfs) 1,810 m³/s (63,900 cfs) Nov 25 8,880 m³/s (313,600 cfs) 7,200 m³/s (254,300 cfs) 8,220 m³/s (290,300 cfs) 1,780 m³/s (62,900 cfs) Nov 24 8,860 m³/s (312,900 cfs) 7,500 m³/s (264,900 cfs) 8,220 m³/s (290,300 cfs) 1,800 m³/s (63,600 cfs) Nov 23 8,870 m³/s (313,200 cfs) 7,240 m³/s (255,700 cfs) 8,220 m³/s (290,300 cfs) 1,580 m³/s (55,800 cfs) Nov 22 8,920 m³/s (315,000 cfs) 7,820 m³/s (276,200 cfs) 8,220 m³/s (290,300 cfs) 2,210 m³/s (78,000 cfs) * Net Total Supply (NTS) is determined weekly as the average total inflow Lake Ontario receives from Lake Erie, over-lake precipitation and basin runoff/streamflow, minus lake-evaporation The discharge has dropped recently, which will assist shipping (it is the velocity of the SLR that makes shipping difficult, not the level of the lake, velocity increases with increased discharge, the boats sometimes ground because they lose a lot of maneuverability at peak discharges). It has been maintained at record discharge levels since the recession of flooding in Montreal, until being dropped recently. But the water coming in from the upper Great Lakes is still at or exceeding record levels, so even with these way above average discharges, the lake level is still way above average. Oh, and we got quite a bit of precipitation since Halloween over LO and in the watershed. When you overfill a bathtub, there is a relief pipe that takes the excess, but if you continue to overfill at a rate that exceeds the capacity of that pipe, you get water all over the floor, the bathtub overflows. There is only so much discharge capacity, so if the input from upstream stays where it is, it is unlikely things will be pretty next spring, unless a solid icepack forms on the upper river early, and allows higher discharge under the ice without the flooding and scour danger that occur in the open channel. In 2017, there was a major drop in discharge ~90000 cfs) in late December, lasting about 20 days; in 2018, this was postponed to Mid January of 2019, and lasted 10 days, and this may have been due to lack of ice cover to allow the higher discharges that resumed in mid January of 2018, and then on January 20 of 2019. But unless you install a bigger outlet pipe, if you overload a bathtub, it eventually overflows. Jimski pointed out this problem a couple of years ago on this website. I contacted Dr. Wilcox at SUNY Brockport about time of travel through the Great Lakes to try to get a sense of when this would start impacting us, and he replied to me that he was unaware of any definitive data or studies on this. It would seem we have a ball park figure of about 1 year or so before the "spigotless source" starts messing up the plans.
  25. For what it's worth, DEC received a few more than 20 comments in the first round of comments, according to a friend at the hatchery. The response was similar to the Salmon River Unit Management Plan response. Hardly the result of a well organized national conspiracy.
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