chowder

I've been messing around w/ long range shooting lately since getting a 22-250 w/ a decent scope. Although this question about the effective range of a gun was originally framed w/ respect to muzzys I thought I'd just throw out what I've seen so far about any gun's effective range, especially once you start reaching out much past 150yds. 1. Correct shooting form becomes an essential issue because small applications of improper torque ( twisting the stock w/ the forehand, pushing or pulling the firearm due to improper trigger finger form, too much or canted butt stock pressure and poor follow thru after the shot ,etc) lead to poor shots. This is especially true of muzzys because there is a considerable period of time after you break the trigger action before the bullet actually exits the barrel. Follow thru and form are therefore very important for longer range shooting and even more important for muzzys than a typical center fire high powered rifle. Go to some of the sites that deal w/ longe range shooting and you will see what I mean http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... 9CF2CAABC5 2. People who expect to make long range shots count have to spend a lot of time practicing to understand the ballistics of their powder/bullet combo. Though this information is available for many standard factory load combos on paper it is essential to see just how the whole package comes together in your specific firearm. This part of the longer range shooting program requires real dedication, and importantly, access to a long range range w/ targets which enable the shooter to develop a very precise picture of the way their bullet drops. The precise understanding of the exact way the bullet drops enables the shooter to develop a strategy for either making MOA adjustments on the scope or establishing a truly excellent 'gut' sense for 'hold over'.We are talking about hours and hours of range time here! In summary; Don't underestimate the dedication it can take to become a longer range shooter, buying a certain firearm is only the first small and easiest step. First you must have an excellent understanding of shooting form do's and dont's , then you must develop a clear understanding of your gun/charge/bullet package in order to be able to truly enable you to make shots of a longer range nature. Before you start messing around w/ this stuff make sure you can get access to a range w/ a bare minimum of 200yds (300 yds is much better- most people don't realize how 'close' 300 yds is!). Many smaller gun clubs only have 100yd rifle ranges. As my grandfather once told me, "the biggest thing in how a gun shoots is the nut behind the stock" I try to remember this every time a shot of mine is off the mark!

Launch at T-Falls (see map on link) http://nysparks.state.ny.us/parks/62/getting-there.aspx Don't go out on Cayuga in a 14' unless the wind is projected to be fairly mellow, the lake can get very,very bad quickly & no one will be out there in the winter to help! Go south from T-Falls and work the shallows early am w/ stix off boards,don't stay at this approach for too long w/ no results. If shallow/stix no go then start working the entire water column out to mid lake w/ divers, riggers, core & flatlines. Typically the fish are scattered but concentrated around & above the bait. Lots of years it's a different day each day when you are winter fishing. See recent posts, land locks can be very active this time of year - if you get mostly small ones try deeper.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/quickquest ... up5895.htm

You can get the Walker braided steel cable from St. Peter's Outfitters in Oswego. It won't lose signal @ deeper depths, has much less blow back and should last longer too but it is more expensive!

John if you want to get out shoot me pm. My little boat is rigged & ready! -Andy

In theory; Core gives you 5' down /color or 16.6' down/100' of core out Copper gives you 22' down/100' of copper out. In reality both of these estimates are just that 'estimates'. Personally I think that core is better suited to applications where you don't need to get below 50 feet down but need the stealth that a lot of line out and no delivery device (rigger weight or diver) gives you. Core just seems to stop sinking very much after you get 12 or so colors out, especially if you try to run flashers on it. Copper is better suited for deep presentations, like trying to get down into the 60-110' range in a stealthy way(no rigger weight or diver in front of the bait). Most anglers are using copper and core off boards out to the sides of their standard diver and rigger lines so that they don't get tangled. When you do this the core or copper should not be clipped in the release so each rod & reel combo is only good for one depth zone. There are ways to change how deep a certain fixed length core or copper rig will go down using 'snap weights' or 'torpedo diver weights' but I would have to say that the jury is still out on whether these techniques will produce consistent results. -Andy

I've used Jared Johnson's Kokanee spinners behind small dodgers & flashers w/ out seeing any major line twisting. These spinners are very light weight, maybe that's why I didn't have a problem or maybe I was just lucky. Anyway, I just started playing around w/ them last fall & could be I'm in for the same problems you have had! -Andy

I'm envious of you guys! I got up @ 2:30 this morning & got my chores done by 7:30. Stopped in the house quick to change before hitching up and heading over & there was a message from the guy's wife who was supposed to fish w/ me today saying he was 'under the weather'! This guy's been after me for a while to take him fishing but he's all out of chances now

The mating season for Eastern Coyote's is Jan/Feb & males will move out of their home area to find mates. It is in this period of time that more people are often aware of them out & about. Gestation is a little over 2 months and the pups can run by 4 weeks of age. In the early fall the family disperses and again it is in this 'dispersal' period that yotes are noticed more by people as the young move around and attempt to find core areas of their own. There is a fair amount of howling just after dark in early bow season as groups shuffle around & try to claim or reclaim their core areas which get stressed by the introduction of the 'new' generation.

Hunters will NEVER "control" coyote populations. Man has tried to do that for decades. Predators like coyotes are controlled ONLY by food availability. If you want to eliminate coyotes---take away their food! Studies in the western states have proven that killing "excessive" numbers of coyotes results in the remaining coyotes increasing their litter sizes to compensate. The more you kill the more you will have! They are here to stay! Not doubting the OP's fact but I would like to see the actual data that states coyotes alone kill 80% of fawns. Seems very high for a state with tremendous habitat and lots of "other food". I'm not trying to pick a fight here but I agree w/ what Paul has said .In my opinion Coyotes are opportunistic predators that are able to change their forage base and population dynamics quickly as a response to changes in their environment and as such they are basically a 'natural' part of a healthy ecosystem. I find it really hard to accept that Coyotes are a one size 'fits all' villian that is eliminating large portions of the N.E. deer herd. I will readily admit I'm not a coyote biologist or predator hunting expert by any means but I've killed over a dozen of them on our farm and several more as a 'favor' for my landlords and found nothing but mice & other unrecognizable small animal remains in their digestive tract. I'm not saying they never eat anything else but I do think they eat a lot of rodents even though this doesn't fit w/ their 'evil' public image. -Andy

Dale, how did you finish up boning out deer b4 me! I've got two quarters to go & we can get back to trying to hit the water . If you get out on your own fish the whole water column, you just never know where the LLs are gonna be but a lot of days the better LLs are below the little guys. I should be ready to go next week, gonna do some hard water stuff the next couple days. -Andy

Diver, nice job on the yote! Curious as to what you are using for calling? My son & I just got into this last winter & the guy who got us hooked moved out of the area b4 we could really get a handle on that part of the deal.The fellow we started hunting yotes with had a Fox Pro electronic caller. I'm in on the Bark @ the Moon Forum but I thought I'd get your input since you are obviously into the predator thing. Thanks, -Andy

I'm with Ray on this drilling out the flash hole idea- it just sounds like bad medicine to me. Have any of you guys who have done this consulted a credible gunsmith who is very experienced with black powder arms? It seems to me that the exact dimension of that hole was arrived at by an engineer using specific criteria. As a 'jack of all trades' I'm all for making stuff work but personally I draw the line on my own creativity when it comes to either 'alternative' electrical configurations or modifying firearms.I'm not trying to throw water on this discussion but I'd like to see the exact scientific basis behind the idea of enlarging the flash hole from a professional gunsmithing authority. -Andy

At this point in my life I'm using just the pellets and only my inline 209 type guns. First 'misfire' was my first afternoon out during blk pwdr Thurs 12/16 -my Accura would not go off, though the primer lit ok . I put in 3 fresh primers in a row attempting to take a doe @ 100+yds. I eventually pulled the plug in my stand, pushed out the old load & reloaded, this 'fresh load would not fire either. Next afternoon I took out my Traditions Pursuit which I had shot at the range that morning and that gun only lit 1/2 the charge. I put powder from a fresh box and used brand new Winchester 209 Triple Seven special primers in both guns the next day and still had mixed results at the range. So after talking to Ray I cleaned em his way & my Accura fired nicely for me on the last day I could go (story above). In addition my buddy, who was having issues w/ his CVA Optima, borrowed my Traditions Pursuit and was able to take his first deer of the season yesterday , the last day, only a few feet from where I got mine the day before. Kind of looks like the flash hole was the culprit but other possibilities are certainly possible.

Tell us more.

I'm not trying to start something here but, at least for me, after you've killed a hundred or so deer a little killing starts to go a long way. Maybe it's just me getting older but it seems to me that even though I do kill a lot of deer and other game animals, the meting out of death is an act to take seriously, because it's final and profound and it makes the meat something more than just food. Any time there seems to be a good reason to pass or not to pass on a deer I do so with no regrets. -Andy

I've never seen a true white deer but I passed on a pie bald doe the last day of muzzy about 5 years ago. I'd heard a couple of people in the general store a few days before calling her "Pie Crust". I didn't see the point in killing the thing and no way I was gonna be known as 'the guy who shot Pie Crust'. I've seen 2 mature pie balds and they were kind of dinky looking. -Andy

Hey Ray, glad you enjoyed some good ole Chenango county hospitality! You & Musky are welcome back anytime and there is another place just down the road in Greene that's owned by a LOU member we ought to check out too and I hear it's loaded with all kinds of wild game! -Andy

Well, that explains a lot! I hung my whites up in the mudroom after my hunt last night so they wouldn't freeze solid and this morning my wife say's to me " Something smells very bad in the mudroom, I think one of the barn tomcats got in and sprayed on your hunting costume". P.S. Musky, I locked up that arch w/ 2 log chains before I left you 2 guys there alone when I went to town & I left my sister in law w/ my 870 12 gauge and a box of shells and told her under no circumstances was she to answer the door!

I was getting ready to post a question this morning about some frustrating misfires I've been having w/ Triple 7 in my inline muzzys when Ray called to see about coming over for a short hunt. Anyway when he got here I was kind of busy but described my series of misfortunes and he promptly got out a spool of thin wire and described how how, by putting a kink in it, he runs it thru the breach plug hole to get it cleaned out really well. I must admit I was a bit skeptical that it would be an improvement on the little needle I use but I figured what the heck and cleaned the breach plug as Ray advised. Long and short of it I managed to get done w/ my days work at 3:30, threw on my winter whites, grabbed my CVA Accura and headed out. Making sure I stayed as far away as possible from where Ray told me he thought the deer would be based on his morning hunt I soon saw deer movement in a distant swamp. Bellycrawling in as close as I could I saw what looked like cover and slid into a frozen ditch. Except the ditch was not exactly completely frozen... Anyway I'm lying there trying to line up a 120 yd shot w/ the freezing ditch water rising into places where freezing ditch water should not be and I'm thinking I hope Ray is right about this 'fire hole' cleaning thing. Well people, Ray's cleaning routine worked, the gun went off perfectly, the big doe took 2 steps and went down in a heap. Quite a Season finale. Thanks Ray!!

You don't have to try making long range shots to miss! Last night I had 5 does around me in an Alder thicket. Some of the skippys got around down wind of my stand and the whole bunch got uneasy. I was trying to get a clear shot at the biggest doe and when they got uneasy I felt compelled to go w/ a quickly lined up dead on chest shot at 20 yds. Kaboom but no deer! I'm standing there trying to figure this out and I see the thick shattered branch that was right in front of my barrel as I looked thru the unobscured scope. I don't think even this smokeless steroid enhanced Savage you guys are talking about would have helped a bone head like me out of that priceless maneuver.

Dag, Pete a 610 yd chuck shot! That's seriously impressive! I realize that I sure have a lot to learn in order to get a handle on this predator hunting thing (the guy who got me started into this stuff moved out of the area ). First off I can see that you and High Bidder are right about the sitting/tall bipod issue. We were successful w/ the rotating big game bench b/c it was really just like sighting in at the range, but the whole setup was pretty awkward to move around and it only worked for 1 day at each farm & then the does would simply stop feeding in the open (but not b4 we got a few at each place ). Any way we got some does killed & I now have a decent shooting bench. Following up on your post about prone shooting I found some good info on the correct form to assume for using the shorter bipod for prone shooting and I can see why this is considered the best position for long range and varmint hunting. I'll have to study up on this whole thing & hopefully my son & I will have some fun w/ the yotes this winter. Thanks Pete and High Bidder for your comments & please pass on any more tips you have for getting into the long range shooting action! -Andy

We wound up getting this whole swiveling bench rest rig for less than the bipod. http://www.mackspw.com/Item--i-BIAAR03B ... edium=feed We developed a system for dragging it around on several farms in a ice fishing sled and used a cheap pop up blind to provide a wind break and cover for the whole setup. I'm telling you this setup was the bomb for doe management w/ plenty of support for long range shots (I took 2 does out past 300yds w/ my 7mm Mag. using it) 2 of my landlords, and 2 buddies used it as well, so it was instrumental in taking numerous deer. If you leave this rig setup overnight, which we did most of the time, you want to get some plastic under the feet so they don't freeze to the ground. Best part is now I've got a nice shooting bench too! -Andy

Well, I'll give you my 2 cents on this; The common issue w/ the .243 for deer is the relatively low lbs of knock down force (in a ballistics chart this called "Energy").It's this 'force' or "Energy" that creates the instantaneous shock value and trauma associated w/ 'knockdown'. Typically people try to overcome this w/ a hotter load but this can very easily lead to unexpanded pass thru, especially under 80yds. I do think you might want to move up to 130 grains but I wouldn't go over that, unless you are going to be doing a lot of longer range hunting. A .243 in capable hands (and it sounds like yours are!) is a perfectly fine deer rifle and I would not hesitate to hunt w/ one for a minute. As others have suggested I think you would have better results w/ the Federal 'Noslers' . My personal favorite for deer hunting is the 7mm Mag, and I have had few deer move very far if at all after getting whacked by this round because it's got tremendous energy which if coupled w/ correct expansion leads to massive wound trauma and instantaneous shock value. That being said I used to see a fair number of deer I shot w/ hot .270 loads take right off w/ little blood on the outside. No matter what caliber you use you will eventually see a wide variation in the way the bullet wound affects the deer, especially on 'classic' broad side shots behind the shoulder under 80yds. -Andy

Hey Vic, have a good one & I hope you got at least one of the snow blowers back on the job. -Andy