Lucky13

That's exactly what they did two years ago, the spring trawls showed a gap where at larger sizes, two year classes of alewife were missing, so they cut stocking by 20%. This year's spring trawls are inconclusive, so no decision been made yet. Algorithms are great, but there is a principal in science whereby the significance of a number is determined by the indeterminate errors associated with the measurements taken to get the number Because there are relatively large indeterminate errors associated with activities undertaken on large spatial scales, like trawling, you are going to get numbers like 2.1 billion, not 2,165,412,347 from these efforts. A lot of what some see as real differences are just "noise" The more numbers like this that go into an algorithm, the less useful the result will be. As Gambler points out, just two variables may correlate beautifully for a while and then contradict for long enough to make the relationship suspect, or at least more complicated, than just the two factors alone suggest.

You may want to consider fishing Seneca Lake from the pier at Watkins Glen. No Pacific Salmon, but Lakers and Atlantics may be around. If you want more to do than fishing, I still suggest Rochester.

My sense is that Gambler spoke with someone on the GLFC LO Committee Citizen's panel. Lets just say the 2017 hatch was not as dismal as the two year hole, but not everyone on the panel is as enthusiastic as some west end Charter Operators. OMNRF and NYSDEC will likely be having public meetings to discuss these numbers, and possibly other data, coming up soon. I want to see the analysis of age and condition done at the Altmar hatchery on returning fish. I can't believe that fish that are finding plenty of bait are hitting anything that moves in front of them, as they seem to be doing this year. It also sounds like a lot of the fish caught in most of the US lake are mid teeners. Are these robust 2 year olds, or are they scrawny 3 year olds? Certainly, Steve LaPan’s 40 pound eating machines are not hitting their full potential for growth. Hindsight being closer to 20-20 now, I’m glad we have guys like Steve who were willing to take all the heat (a lot of it from the west end operators) to stave off a bigger collapse, and I hope the data says they did enough with the earlier cuts.

On the Canadian side of the lake, not so much!

Isn't this the same story that has been told in fair detail on two other posts?

http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_pdf/pfrgeneseriv.pdf

Charlotte pier on the west side, and Summerville Pier on the east side, of the Genesee River mouth at Rochester should both be providing salmon opportunities by mid September. Best fishing is usually at night using glow in the dark spoons or floating egg sacks, but early AM and late PM can also be good. Nearby, Webster Park pier and the piers at the mouth of Irondequoit Bay can produce salmon, but are better known for browns, and, depending on weather and temperatures, may not have turned on yet. If we get a cols snap, the fish could be up to the falls on the Genny, with opportunities for river fishing with single hook point lures in Fire Tiger, or skein eggs generally hot. Wading is not necessary, or recommended, in the Genesee.

I'm going to remind some of you that you gave me a rasher last spring when I was critical of three guys in an open aluminum 14 or 15 foot length boat running out of the Genny and down to the bay, no life jackets on in the pix. The big word then was watch the weather, and don't go out when it is predicted to be snotty, and you are fine. I'm reading that the forecast was 1-3 footers and then calming down, but the Big O changes VERY quickly, and the weatherman is not known for great accuracy. Maybe a fifteen foot whaler that would float after being cut in half is fine and safe in a big blow or when hit by rogue waves, open aluminum maybe a little less so. Part of why I don’t go out anymore is the queezy feeling that comes from sitting in a 19 foot Starcraft 3 miles out and seeing wave tops above me in every direction on a day that was supposed to stay 1 to 3. And it was 1 to 3 up until about 10 minutes before we pulled that day.

When I was still going out on the Lake, we would often catch 'bows right in the prop wash while setting cheaters. Same thing up in the 'daks with Atlantics. Try just enough weight it to get the spoon to swim, and not to far back either.

Yea, they'll just crank them out with a 3D printer. Browns spawn in the fall, so unless DEC has a whole bunch of surplus at one their hatcheries, where will they come from? They have not raised fish from eggs at Powdermill since back when Ken Ruedin ran the hatchery, DEC gives them fingerlings to raise.

There's a new sheriff in town. From the May MCFAB minutes: "Lt. Bruce Hummel reported on Law Enforcement efforts on the lower Genesee River during the fall of 2017. For 2017, officers were enlisted from all 11 Counties in Region 8. He said that two officers worked the river in 2016 and together wrote approximately 70 tickets. In 2017, the details issued 188 tickets. After meeting with an Assistant District Attorney to discuss problems that had occurred in the past, Lt. Hummel assigned an ECO to be in court for all the tickets written in Rochester, even at arraignment, which they are normally not required to attend. Individuals who had been charged had the option of pleading at arraignment or going to trial. DEC had a suggested fine structure. The details were effective in getting out the word that DEC was watching the river. Region 8 plans to repeat the effort in 2018 with a more comprehensive data collection effort. He said that EC law allows a fine of up to $250.00 for ECL violations, although because there is also a state surcharge, fines are usually lower than the maximum. A question was asked about alleged “commercial operations” and he reported that while they observed individuals that were taking many fish, the possession limits make it difficult to apprehend people for this as they can have two days limits in possession. There were usually 5 or 6 individuals associated with the vehicles, so they generally had to have more than 35 salmon to be over the limit. They would like to catch some of these operators but are limited in having to identify a buyer at the eventual destination, and the need to track the vehicle as it travels cross state. He estimated that it would require a full time investigator at least 6 months to make a case. He also mentioned that in the City of Rochester there is a large amount of paperwork associated with writing a ticket, as they are required to file a prisoner data report, 4 copies of a supporting deposition, and an arrest report. While this is a lot of additional work, if the ticketed person does not appear in court, an arrest warrant is issued, which all City Police see if they stop the individual for something else. He added that EnCon Law is always happy to respond to callers, and the hotline is 877-457-5680, or an individual ECO can be contacted with the phone numbers included on the DEC website or in the fishing guidebook. "

The fish are difficult to catch, that’s what makes them gamefish. They are a lot easier to catch if people are not standing in the middle of the river right on top of them, and if people are trying to catch them rather than manipulating large amounts of lead to get it up close to the head, and then yanking, or running short drifts through the standing waves so the line gets caught in their teeth, and then yanking. Changing this will require shaming the unethical fisherman, currently a near impossibility during the salmon run, or ticketing, which Region 8 has committed to doing, lets get the other regional LE guys on board. It would help to have some strong statements from NYSDEC fisheries. And I would hope to never again see a picture of a charter captain in a pirate hat “helping” with egg take by lifting hens for NYSDEC staff!!

Thank you very much, Gambler. I have all this bookmarked but never thought of it as a meeting summary, just the summary of the full annual report to the GLFC. If you look at section 9 of the full report (http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/fish_marine_pdf/lorpt17.pdf) Figure 7 indicates that the 5 year and older steelhead have nearly disappeared from what reaches the hatchery. Maybe the “larger fish” genes have just been eliminated from the gene pool. No arguments from me about the ”shyteshow” in September- early October, Rick, but even with patrols assigned to the Genesee last year from all over Region 8, the circus was still going strong. As long as the higher ups in Albany (higher up than NYSDEC) want to sell NYS to every outsider who wants to come and play whatever game they want, we’re going to see more of the same. And the river guides up in P-town don’t help a lot, most of them just teach the west coast sockeye lining technique as necessary for kings, and when the salmon are done and the chrome show up early, like last October, the ‘bows are just more fodder for the cooler for these rippers. The only saving grace there is that most of the yahoos at least follow the one fish limit, but they can certainly put a hurting on a lot of fish with those methods. As to the perceived “ fight,” I only pointed out the data that is out there about harvest, I would love to see everyone working together for improvement of the fishery, and especially the ethics.

State of the Lake Meeting Minutes? I have my notes, and the LO unit annual reports, but have never seen recaps of the meetings.

The contention made by Gambler was that the decline in large 'bow attributable to increased popularity of tributary angling. The data that is out there indicates that 86% of steelhead caught in the Salmon River are released and slightly less than 50% of steelhead reported in the boat survey are released. Gambler's "theory" is that mortality is caused by C+R. Mine is that large fish stay out in the lake for a year or more longer and now are finding less to eat, hence, lower peak size. There were a lot of Steelhead in the tribs last year and large numbers of dropbacks into May in the Salmon and June in the Niagara, so C+R does not automatically result in mortality. I think the important data for this fall will be the age of all the Salmon that are filling everyone's boxes. Are they robust two year olds, Steve Lapan’s” eating machines capable of growing to 30+ lbs” or are they scrawny three year olds that have to work hard to find those big baitballs before they can get a meal. If the former, happy days are here again, if the later, it might be time to cut stocking even further, or risk a collapse at worst, and at best a slow decline to Michigan sized fish.