DEC to Discontinue Stocking Brown Trout in Irondequoit Creek

[King Davy]

As far as the fish that went upstream somebody ask DEC what happens to those fish. Do they get direct stocked like all the rest of the LO browns. What happens to them if they execute this stocking plan.

 

I will tell you that our local TU group will be doing cold water conservation work on the creek. We are working with the towns and the county parks on a wood is good program. Trees falling into the stream provide cover for both juvenile trout and salmon. Many times they are removed. Trees scour out deeper holding pools that are cooler and provide cover from predators. We’ll also do a thermal temperature study. Irondequoit has several springs leaching into the creek. As we locate a thermal relief area where both trout and salmon will seek in warmer waters throughout the creek we’ll look for opportunities to create habitat to improve holding populations of trout and salmon. 
 

BTW these are the same types of habitat improvements we fixed in the 90’s and early 2000’s on the salmon river and small feeder streams around spawning gravel and natel areas to stop stream bank erosion that covers important spawning gravel. 

 

Today the salmon river produces millions of wild chinook salmon, and small streams like Trout Brook, Orwell Brook, and Beaver Dam Brook is also producing wild coho’s and some steelhead. 

[LongLine]

The scientific guiding principle to stocking is to balance the Predator-Prey relationship. It has nothing to do with stocking where natural repro happens. Nat repro happens on the SR but the SR is still stocked.  DEC also wants to provide opportunity for the stakeholders, both trib & open water.

 

This year (2025) 13,300 Browns were stocked in Irond Creek at 7 places and 141,000 Browns were stocked in the lake off Monroe County at 3 places.  The overall goal for the lake is 480,000 Browns. Browns going in the creek are larger than those that go in the lake. ( 9-15" vs 8" respectively.)  Hatcheries can produce much more than 480K so it has nothing to do with making up "shortfall."

 

https://dec.ny.gov/things-to-do/freshwater-fishing/stocking/spring-trout-stocking/monroe-county

 

"Wood is good'"  Yeah right...until you hit some and knock the heck out of your prop or lower unit! 

[King Davy]

Longline we are working way upstream in Penfield, Pittsford. All the way to Fishers. Nobody is running a motor boat up there. 
 

The predator prey in this stream is macro invertebrates not bait fish. We’ve done macro studies as well. I can assure you there plenty of bugs to grow fish with a collection of dace species. Natural reproduction is successful for king salmon on the Salmon River. Not so much species like coho and steelhead that stay upon hatching in a stream for up to 18 months. With the smaller colder tribs to the salmon river they would never survive the main river. 

[GAMBLER]

Without a tagging program or fin clipping study on wild fish, this is BS.  They have no idea if those wild fish even make it to Lake Ontario…..  Piss poor management in my opinion.  With browns eating a lot of gobies, is the small population of wild browns that possibly make it to Lake Ontario from Irondequoit creek going to make a big difference?  The number of wild fish that possibly reach Lake Ontario probably doesn’t even make up for the browns stocked near my work that get decimated by cormorants every year.  

[King Davy]

Ok. Nobody thinks these wild brown trout are swimming to the lake in mass to become part of the lake fishery. DEC is counting this as a wild resident stream population of trout. What they know now from studying the creek is there’s a 12 month a year population (a significant one) that lives in Irondequoit creek year round. You can catch these fish every month of the year.

 

Irondequoit creek is a unique body of water that is home to trout 12 months a year that aren’t migratory.

[Sweet Caroline]

King Davy, I always appreciate your knowledge and input. I love your passion for the fishery. I applaud the efforts of those that put in the extra time and energy with the conservation efforts of our lakes and streams. I’m glad that Irondequoit creek is a part of that. 
 

Not stocking a stream like Irondequoit Creek with Brown Trout would be a huge miss with introducing suburban and urban youth to trout fishing,  as well as a disservice to the elderly and disabled. My observations are that those are the groups that are using this resource the most. Unlike most streams that can support trout without them dying in the Summer months, Irondequoit Creek is an easy access stream and in close proximity to a large suburban and urban population. This opens up a unique opportunity to introduce trout fishing to the masses. Just a bike ride away for many, or a short drive away for most. My opinion is that the  importance of a creek like this is that it can sustain trout in the crucial summer months, more so then the fact that it can support natural reproduction. I view Irondequoit Creek as a breeding ground for those that someday may move on to join TU or become a Charter captain… or maybe get people in to fishing that otherwise never would. Irondequoit Creek should be managed different then the average trout stream. 

Comparing the Salmon river to a stream like Irondequoit Creek is like comparing apples to oranges in that (A) it is not close to any large human population (B) there are other places nearby that have stream trout fishing (C) it is the epicenter of the LO trout and salmon fishery and should be managed as such. As I think about it, in reality the Salmon River and  Irondequoit creek are the only two significant systems on the south shore that can support a summer trout population and have no barriers to Lake Ontario. No reason why only two systems cannot be managed different. I would understand if there are 100s of these that the DEC may want to take a universal approach. 
 

Being somebody that fished Irondequoit Creek, 3-4 times a week, year round, for many years my observation  is that these stocked fish get fished out very quick. It is truly a put and take fishery. By mid Summer, hardly a stocky can be found. By July I’m putting away the spinning rod and busting out the dry flys and focusing on the naturals as that was all that was left. The average Joe fisherman clearly could catch the stocked trout but the naturals are left untouched. Another thing I’ve seen is that was once the stocked trout moved into a hole they never moved all summer. Many times they stayed within a few hundred feet of where they stocked, let alone migrating to the lake. 

I’m as intrigued by Atlantic’s as any. A stream summer fishery would be a really cool thing. My understanding is there is a new strain of Atlantic Salmon being stocked in LO. Apparently one that is not as effected by thiamine as much. In the past, I feel we have just put good  money after bad when it comes to Atlantics. They do not  seem to be able to establish themselves in the current ecosystem of LO, with the alewife abundance and against Pacific salmon and steelhead  that have coexisted  forever.  It is kinda sad, but I’m a realist and the ROI just is not there. Take this year for example. Turning out to be a stellar year for both the Atlantics and Coho. A stellar year for Atlantics is one fish per trip. A stellar year for coho is 5 man limits in a few hours. As far as I know, we stock far less cohos then Atlantics lake-wide including Canada. If I was a businessman my investment would be in the coho over the Atlantic. Much bigger bang for your buck, plus there is no more bold and aggressive fish in both the lake and stream that swims in LO then a coho.  I guess no harm if stocking Atlantics gives us access to a federal funding bucket that we otherwise would not have access to. Why not I guess, but not a the detriment of other species that have proven they can be successful. Unfortunately the LO ecosystem as it once existed is gone forever. With the introduction of all the invasive species, man has forced nature to takes its course and we have to work with what we have. 
 

Everything else aside, we all know we would not have this great fishery if it did not drive revenue. If we solely go by that, if we stop stocking brown trout in Irondequoit Creek, do you think that would increase or decrease current and future fishing license sales?

Edited June 4, 2025 by Sweet Caroline

[King Davy]

During covid license sales went through the roof and are still there. As a retired guy I can’t find a quiet place to fish during the week unless I drive an hour and a half to the upper Genny. Or an hour to the cohockton. 

 

 So plenty of people are out fishing everywhere. We run seminars for youth and take them fishing all summer long as well as fishing programs with girl and Boy Scouts and the city of Rochester at parks like Cobbs Hill. 
 

Lindsay for 14 years ran seminars to teach women to fly fish on the salmon river and we ran a fly fishing course for veterans for 14 years to where we had their graduation fishing the summer on the salmon. And since 2014 we’ve guided breast cancer survivors at an annual retreat on the salmon river out of the Tailwater lodge. And five years ago we lost having our summer fish. 
 

So I get the frustration. Again we’ve been doing conservation work on many streams in our area including Irondequoit for a long time. Where there are wild trout that need cold water we try to improve their habitat. Not sure if it was Cliff Creech or another biologist but DEC did rate Irondequoit as a wild quality stream as far back as 1979. And it’s actually gotten more productive. There are some big wild fish in there.

My opinion of brown trout is they are fairly lazy. What I mean by that is if they find a location in a stream or in the lake that provides them the food and safety they require they don’t stray very far. In the case of this wild population of trout in Irondequoit they have everything they need. In the dead of August when we have stopped trout fishing many other streams like Oatka because they are too warm you can still find cool water in Irondequoit with happy fish.

 

Lake Ontario and all its tributaries were home to the greatest in land population of Atlantic salmon in history. As were lake trout and Cisco’s. DEC while of course interested in providing a world class fishery to get funding through license sales is as interested in science and revitalizing native species. All the Great Lakes DNR and DEC departments are working on these projects. 
 

The huge increase in coho’s are not from increase stocking. You are seeing a successful class of highly likely wild fish. If you have ever been in the upper fly zone of the salmon river down at the paradise pool you’ll notice a little stream coming in there. If you walk up that stream you’ll find thousands of wild coho's and steelhead. If that stream that is spring fed stays watered through out a couple of summers those fish will reach smolt stage and descend to the lake. And it takes nearly two full years especially for coho’s. 
 

Each spring Dan Bishop of DEC leads a seining project from the hatchery to the DSR to determine the current crop of new salmon and any other trout that have successfully hatched. They see those fish that have made it in that study. Including finding Atlantic salmon YOY. 
 

The target to stock sabago strain of Atlantic salmon was 250k. I believe the most they’ve ever stocked was 150k. Let me ask you a simple question. If we didn’t have huge natural recruitment of chinook salmon and they only stocked 150k what do you think the lake fishery would look like? The Atlantic salmon program is not to replace any other species of salmonid. It’s to enhance truly the tributary fishery. Atlantic salmon like steelhead are primarily a river fish. In their natural setting they spend longer time in rivers than open water. And for those of us they target them and all the rest of trib anglers who just fish are catching a lot of them in Sandy and Oak orchard as well as the salmon river and we are working a study with Dr Mike Connerton in Cape Vincent to collect scale and tissue samples. 
 

You all know that tributary fisheries have evolved over the years to where most anglers don’t harvest their catch. I know I don’t because I’d rather eat a perch than a spawning trout or salmon. And don’t even start the rant of C&R kills tons of fish. It’s not happening and I’ll tell you why we know this. Cause you can’t hide a bunch of dead fish in the shallow streams we fish. The bottom of the stream would be littered with dead steelhead and brown trout and that just isn’t happening. The last few years the catch rate for Atlantic salmon from creel census supports that it’s a viable species to target. We’ve caught a lot of them and there isn’t a greater river fish on the planet. They can put on a show like no other species IMHO. 
 

We have a spectacular 12 month a year fishery in the Lake Ontario watershed. Why aren’t we all together on this fact. And in the case of Irondequoit which has been a fertile trout river since forever we have a LO stream that anyone can catch trout wild trout 12 months a year. 
 

The non stop us VS them mentality of lake and trib fisheries is foolish. We have the Disney Land of trout and salmon fishing something for everyone and we should all be happy for each other. Is it perfect? Pretty close. Is there work to do? You bet. But let’s let the folks in charge work through the science of keeping it mighty. You may not like every turn in that journey but remember one thing. We are the only Great Lake that hasn’t crashed in over 50 years of managing it. I think they know what their doing.

 

 

[GAMBLER]

10 hours ago, King Davy said:

Ok. Nobody thinks these wild brown trout are swimming to the lake in mass to become part of the lake fishery. DEC is counting this as a wild resident stream population of trout. What they know now from studying the creek is there’s a 12 month a year population (a significant one) that lives in Irondequoit creek year round. You can catch these fish every month of the year.

 

Irondequoit creek is a unique body of water that is home to trout 12 months a year that aren’t migratory.

Dave,  

 

Which is it? If they are not counting them towards the Lake Ontario allotment, how come you said earlier this below.  

This decision isn’t entirely due to finding wild trout. DEC doesn’t stock brown trout in any Lake Ontario tributary below an impassable barrier. Why? Because they’d have to count those fish against the allotment to Lake Ontario. 

They pulled the brown stocking for a summer fishery on the Salmon River four years for this reason and this decision is now completing the Lake Ontario stocking policy. 

 

 

[King Davy]

That’s what DEC told me about ending stocking on the salmon. It sounds like the same thing for Irondequoit. But it could be two fold. Where DEC has found wild fish in any New York stream including Irondequoit since they did an in-depth electro fishing of it last summer and they find wild fish that they believe will sustain sport fishing they stop stocking it. On Oatka four years ago they stopped stocking twin bridges because we (I was on the shocking crew) found 300 wild fish in 100 yards. 
 

Honestly guys I’m assuming and I may be wrong they are stopping the upstream stocking to align their stocking policy for LO tribs. On the salmon river your SOL unless we get a good run of adult Atlantic salmon. They used to stock the yearling Atlantics up top of the river and now only plant them in the estuary. However the one and only case for a continued fishery of a LO trib without a stocking is the Iron due to its healthy population of wild trout.

[HB2]

Well all I can say is this is a , " watch out what you wish for type of thing ". 

 

Fast forward to April 1 of next year . A lot of fathers who's fathers took them will be taking their kids to go fishing , like they did every year since the begining of time . And what will they say about this development? 

Their kids won't be able to do what they did as a right of spring . 

And questions will be asked as to why . And you can bet that TU will be the ones being the scapegoat , right or wrong . TV cameras on crying kids is all that's needed to make TU look bad . And I'm sure their will be no shortage of angry fathers ready to sound off.  And with social media , the sky is the limit .  Don't mess with fathers children . 

And If ever there was a day for a protest , that is it . 

 

I got nothing but love for you Dave , but I would talk to some people . 

 

 

[King Davy]

HB2 my experience is that most of that opening day celebration happens at Powder Mills park and since they’ll still be stocking over 10,000 fish in Irondequoit creek that scene will continue as well as their fishing derby’s for kids and families.

 

I won’t apologize for TU doing stream rehabilitation work to help sustain trout. And I don’t think DEC has to apologize for doing what they do. Study fish. Many of you don’t understand that we are one of several cold water conservation groups in this area. Looking at water quality, habit for both fish and wildlife. How many deer hunters on here put food plots in to yeah kill deer but also grow a healthy population of deer on their land or leased lands.

 

And it’s not just TU members who benefit for the work we do to enhance habitat to promote healthy fish populations. We don’t do any work on private property. Only where there are public fishing rights. So I don’t have anything else to offer. I’ve told you about the work we and DEC are involved in. We didn’t ask them to stop stocking fish. It would never be up to us. It’s their parameters and management criteria that decisions are made. Any kid or parent can fish for the trout in Irondequoit be they wild or stocked by Powder Mills. Plus any of the migratory fish that enter the stream. 

[HB2]

As long as the kids have their time , I see nothing wrong with this , let them try