GAMBLER

Atlantics aren't returning because of adult mortality due to the thiamine issue. The feds don't supply us with a great product either. Fin damage on just about every Atlantic I have caught over the years. Niagara County offered to fund a new hatchery in Niagara county years back. The DEC killed that idea quickly.

It would have to be done to thousands of alewife. If you do it to a couple alewife, they would get eaten and there goes all your work. Triploid kings are an option that would create bigger kings but that force the DEC to do it with limited staff. It would make everyone happy. We could keep the insane numbers we have now and have the legit chance at a 40lb king again. We don't let Gator play with tools anymore. He will hurt himself. Right Keith?

If it’s possibly, it would cost money. Will the powers to be spend it? That’s the question!

Tom, Lake trout natural reproduction is on the upswing. If they restore habitat, it will more than likely increase. I'm all for them dumping a species that doesn't naturally reproduce as long as the survive enough to benefit the fishery and restore a native species. Dumping Atlantics and have them die because the main food source kills them is an issue. Lakers may not be naturally reproducing well, but adults aren't dying from an alewife diet like Atlantics. The numbers of returns show a lot of adult mortality in Atlantics. Between the 200,000+ NY stocks and the numbers Ontario stocks, returns are pitiful. Multiple year classes of Atlantics should return to spawn and handfuls show up......... Ever wonder why we don't see any monster Atlantics? Can't grow old if your dinner kills you. We both know, lake trout catch rates will be down when king fishing is good. Atlantic catch rates will be up when more people are king / steelhead and brown fishing than laker fishing. Cowbells and Gambler Rigs are not an efficient way to catch Atlantics.. In thousands of hours lake trout fishing over the past 40 years, I have never caught an Atlantic lake trout fishing. Even I haven't fished lake trout much the past 5 years..... When the king fishing is lights out, there is no reason to target them. King fishing tactics catch some lake trout but it's not a great way to produce numbers. King tactics will boat Atlantics if they are there to catch. Lamprey, pollution, Alewife, overfishing and loss of spawning habitat are more than likely the causes. Funny that alewife showed up in Lake Ontario in the 1860's / 1870's and the Atlantics vanished in the 1890's. Coincidence? See the clip below highlighted in red. If a baitfish showed up in Lake Ontario that caused thiamine deficiency, would the native fish that had never delt with Thiamine deficiency be susceptible to the thiamine issue? 100%!!!! Did it single handedly wipeout the Atlantic population? Probably not but I would bet the farm it had a HUGE impact and sped up the process. Scientists in the 1800's had no clue about thiamine deficiency. Scientists found out in 1964 about thiamine deficiency (see below). They didn't list thiamine deficiency as a cause they didn't have the science back them to prove it. The canal issue is warm water. Pumping 70+ degree water into the creek all summer will be detrimental to any cold water species that tries to summer over in the creek. Can anything be done? Doubtful. The canal is being used in a positive way for tributaries. They are releasing more water in the fall so the tribs have more flow. This will help fish runs when water is low. Just drilling wells into aquafers is something that would have to be permitted, controlled and regulated. Draining an underground aquafer just to dump it into a stream to cool the trib probably isn't going to be permitted. The alewife (Alosa pseudoharengus), a small silver fish native to the Atlantic Ocean, first appeared in Lake Ontario in the 1860s and 1870s. Its arrival was facilitated by human-made canals like the Erie Canal or accidental stocking, combined with the sharp decline of native apex predators that previously kept populations in check. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5] Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar) once thrived in massive numbers as a native, landlocked freshwater population in Lake Ontario and its tributaries. However, heavy overfishing, severe deforestation, industrial pollution, and the construction of mill dams that blocked vital spawning runs led to their complete extirpation (local extinction) by 1898. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5] thiaminase in alewives in 1964 (via research by R.H. Gnaedinger). However, it was not until 1996 that researchers (such as J.P. Fisher and colleagues) definitively linked a maternal alewife diet to the complete reproductive failure and larval thiamine deficiency (Cayuga syndrome/Early Mortality Syndrome) seen in predator fish. [1, 2]

Tom, Lakers are surviving to adulthood and not dying from thiamine deficiency unlike Atlantics........ With double the amount of lake trout stocked in NY waters, catch rates blow Atlantics out of the water. Should be double the amount but its way more. (even coho catch rates are more than double even though stocking numbers are slightly more). Natural reproduction is up slightly. If the spawning water restoration works, this should improve more. Lake trout are not the only species that would totally crash if there wasn't lamprey control...... Let's use all the facts not just cherry picking data. All the cold water species would suffer without lamprey control. Sandy is warm due to a lot of factors (man being 95% of the issue). The big one is the Erie canal draining into it through flood gates. The 12-14' deep canal is swamp water during the summer dumping 24x7 into Sandy. A lot of the upper stretches of Sandy are tree covered and shaded. The lower sections are more open, slow and silt bottom. Another overlooked issue with Atlantics is the condition of the fish stocked. EVERY Atlantic I have caught in 42 seasons on Lake Ontario has had damaged Dorsal and Pectoral fins. You want a better outcome, start with a better product.

Wasn't it Einstein that defined insanity as "doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results". Kind of rings true with the Atlantic program.

Tom, Absolutely. We can even go target steelhead and cohos. Coho are stocked in numbers a tick above Atlantics (less if you count the Canadian stockings of Atlantics) but we can target them with success. The diversity of this fishery is awesome. IMO, Atlantics should just be left where they are stocking wise and resources should stop being wasted on trying to fix an issue that hasn't been fixed in 30 years. They are a cool bycatch but a pipe dream. Over the last couple of decades, Lakers, Atlantics and sturgeon restoration projects have been in place. Two of the three are success stories. If you want, you can target lakers with success its easy. If you wanted to break the law, you could target sturgeon and catch them with regularity in the Genny. And then there are Atlantics........ We average one a season with a lot of time on the water.

Tom, I believe they have been stocking the low thiamine tolerant strains since 2023. So far, this seasons catch rates seem down from the past couple. Shouldn't it be getting better? Last year, catch rates seemed decent. I have caught one Atlantic this season and it was 12" long. Luckily it was caught when I was doing the Fin clip / Scale sample DNA study for the DEC and was able to get them data from that fish for them. For the temp issue, its all about time in the tributary until they leave to the lake. Kings leave the following spring. Atlantics stay in the trib for 1 year to 18 months. If it was good enough, we would more than likely have wild trout populations in Sandy year round. The canal dumps 24x7 into Sandy. 75 degree water would be detrimental.

Tom, Stream restoration and stocking more Atlantics will not do much. The thiamine issue and Atlantics are a huge hurdle that has to stop being ignored. You can have the best spawning habitat in the world. If they don't survive to adulthood and return from an alewife diet, you will have empty spawning water. The stockings they do in Canada with pitiful returns is a prime example. Water temp is another huge issue with Sandy. Atlantics spend a year+ in a trib before they leave to the lake. That isn't happening in Sandy. Irondequoit Creek is a better option since it holds trout year round. The Atlantic experiment has been going on for decades with very very minimal advancement. It's time to move on to something more productive. Leave stocking levels where they are and stop wasting resources. Lake Ontario Atlantic Salmon Fisheries Management Plan 2023-2026 Read this link under challenges for Atlantic salmon. Its right from the DEC.

They can't return to the streams if they die before its time. Adult mortality is a huge issue when they are on an alewife diet. Look at the numbers dumped on the Canadian tribs. Returns of less than 2 dozen with hundreds of thousands stocked. Again, the juice isn't worth the squeeze. NY and Ontario Atlantic stocking numbers are higher than coho yet, the Salmon River is full of cohos come October........

You can throw all the money in the world at restoring Sandy for the Atlantic program and the FACT is, with alewife as the main food source, Atlantics will not reproduce well or even survive to adulthood in a large percentage of cases. There have been studies done that show the thiamine deficiency issue is not good at all for Atlantics. The St, Mary River in Superior and Huron have good returns. Why is that? A diverse diet with very little alewife......... I find Atlantics a cool species but spending time and resources for decades on the program with very little success is silly. The juice isn't worth the squeeze!

Just because eggs hatch, doesn't mean they make it. Most South Shore tribs can't support salmon fry after they hatched due to water temp and too many predators. The Garnaska on the North Shore and the Salmon River are the biggest contributors to the natural reproduction on Lake O. A lot of smaller North Shore East end tribs have some decent natural reproduction. The DEC took the king pen rearing project away because of the lack of boats fishing out of Sandy when stocking cuts came down the pipe. They used the better survival when kings are stocked in bigger numbers. Our kings were spread out in the other pen projects over the lake so their numbers were bigger and there was a better survival rate.

Tom, I'm not sure how that would work with most of Sandy being on private land and very little access for equipment.

It's rainfall in the fall not lake level.