Sk8man

I the old days I had one with the suction cups .....you definitely want to have a safety line attached especially with a valuable PanOptics transducer

The focus here is internal as though we here in America, or the government etc. are at the root of the problems we are facing when in fact it is China. They are the root cause of this problem and what is being lost is the fact that they not only have been experimenting (and perhaps developing) biological weapons in their lab but now they will have much more data from across the world to use to make the virus more virulent and to escape the vaccines effectiveness. They have seen firsthand what the use of a virus can do globally to destroy economies, to weaken military responses, to weaken medical facilities, and to destroy morale of nations. As importantly, they have seen the impact that a pandemic can do to weaken adversaries to the point of desperation (e.g. underdeveloped countries with raw resources such as precious metals necessary for the production of vital products in the developed countries affecting everyone). A lot of this vaccination BS is a major distraction from the grave threat developing in the world from China's actions and desire to be "number one" and in control of the worlds resources.

Two separate issues - voluntarily getting or not getting the vaccine OR mandating that the vaccine be administered or losing your job. At first I thought "God maybe it is necessary in order to get this thing under control when the virus was first attacking a couple years ago, but we sure have had a chance to see that it doesn't work and creates many more serious problems than it solves and as Americans we don't like the government telling us what to do and restrict our personal liberties or freedoms. That process has alienated us from the Government, the media, and done a disservice to our economy and the nation as a whole. It is clearer now that we are going to be living (or dying) with this virus for the future because worldwide the virus is free to mutate and even has appeared in the remote reaches of Antarctica. It can apparently spread from vaccinated as well as unvaccinated recipients so creating social/personal chaos by mandating vaccination makes no sense at this point no matter which side of the vaccination issue you are on. The overwhelming of hospitals and medical services is another issue and needs to be addressed separately.

Seems as though we are a long way from HB2's original post, but maybe this is a good way to ventilate feelings and emotions and regardless of particular position and some of the things mentioned here are food for thought. This vaccination issue among many others in our lives such as politics, religion, abortion etc. is very emotional in nature with strong extremes so there is a tendency to throw the baby out with the bath water, but civility is important too and is becoming rare or lacking in many of our societal contacts these days.

Gator makes a great point about the lack of effectiveness of communicating via email, Internet posts, etc. Nothing beats face to face communication about important issues or concerns where facial expressions, intonation of speech body language and many other important cues to learning can take place. Underlyuing this whole topic is emotional fear which clouds reason and logic regardless of the position taken. It really is time to get back to fishing

One of the things ignored here is the question of what are the long term currently unknown effects on the brain and nervous system of contracting even a mild case of covid regardless of strain? The fact that many folks contracting the virus lose their sense of smell and experience other brain/nervous system/respiratory problems suggests that exposure to covid in and of itself may be a worse risk than the potential side effects of the vaccine. There is no data to evaluate at this point in the situation. At least the potential side effects that may affect a percentage of the population (as with nearly any medication or supplement or allergen etc are presently known or suspected and some can be treated. Neurological sequelae the extent to which someone may be living with over time and perhaps unknowingly deteriorating is a significant and largely unknown risk, and like being subjected to the chicken pox virus in the past as a child and then dealing with shingles later in life because the live virus has resided in the system over time. The impact on children's nervous system during the formative years is another significant concern and so are the concerns regarding the vaccine for them in particular but that is the case with pretty much any medication as it is with the elderly. It is truly unfortunate that so much inaccurate information is out there these days, and the various agendas being pushed off on us and a lack of fidelity and honesty in the media and journalism as it has contaminated our ability to accurately assess or verify what is going on at this point. The similarity to the "Wikipedia" with the ability to edit the facts and reliance on the information presented does not escape me.

It doesn't have to be an either or situation. I run slide divers from braid in the upper areas of the water column and wire dipsys for the deeper areas. Each approach excels at what it does best and basically what it was designed for. It isn't a matter of one being superior per se. but one being a more effective solution for each task.

You may be "overthinking" it regarding the brown setups. For many years before the advent of fluoro and waterfleas we fished year round with 12 lb test mono and may have used an 8 lb mono leader in shallow with real clear water with a small black swivel snap when viewed to be desirable at the terminal end. This was true for both toplines and downriggers. In more recent years with the clear water from Zebras and the introduction of fluorocarbon lines folks have switched over to fluorocarbon leaders of varying test strengths from 8-20 for browns in the Spring. Browns are thought to be line shy and wary of boat noise so lines have always been run larger distances from the boat whether horizontally or in back of the boat (sometimes 200 ft or so) In the Spring before the fleas gather you can get away with lighter main lines and leaders but occasionally you can encounter a high teens or low twenties king so although that may be desirable for browns a good king may test the limits of the line and your drag In terms of the terminal end and particular details all the methods can work whether a swivel at the end, loop knot, or Duolock at end with small Spro #8 somewhere up the leader or at the attachment to the main line. Part of the decision depends on the particular spoon or stick you are running and the speeds you will be running it at. For most spoons a small black SOLID RING ball bearing swivel snap will work fine (although sometimes the spoon needs to be "tuned"). For sticks some seem to work better with just the loop knot (e.g. older Rapalas) while many work fine with either the small swivel snap or a Duolock. In the case of the Duolock the Spro 8 is desirable to keep line twist to a minimum. In short, first familiarize yourself with the stuff you'll be running by experimenting with them, and tune them as necessary. I use all of the above depending on circumstances....there is no right and wrong unless the one selected doesn't work effectively and there is no "one size fits all"

Merry Christmas Hank and all the LOU family. May each of you have peace, good health, and joy throughout the new year as well as good success fishing

Ditto on MCF's experience. Sore arm on the booster that is all. My wife didn't have anything but a slightly sore arm and she didn't have a reaction to the second Moderna shot either. Everyone's immune system seems different in its response.

Your first question isn't as straight forward as it might seem. First of all it is difficult to tell exactly where a diver is located because there are many factors involved that you may or may not be able to figure on or figure out. The size of the diver makes a significant difference, your boat speed is a factor, the current strength under the water is another. By using a Fishhawk TD attached to your line you can get a fairly good estimate (perhaps within 5 ft or so). With wire (assuming 30 lb stranded) the achieved depth depends on the type/size of diver and the particular setting (1-3 on most). As a rule of thumb with the (now Dreamweaver) Deeper Diver (or perhaps magnums as well) I figure that on the zero to 1 setting I allow about 1.5 ft per ft wire to 1 ft. depth of diver at 2.0 mph or so (also depends on what you are using to measure boat speed), for a #2 setting 2 ft wire per ft of depth, and for a number 3 setting 3-4 ft of wire out per foot of depth.I also monitor the angle of my lines to try to compensate for current/variations in boat speed etc. These figures are based on my own experience in my own boat and which have been intermittently tested out by use of the TD and they may vary from other setups/boats so it should be considered a rough estimate. Regarding the swivels: At the end of the wire I use a large 100 lb or more test ball bearing swivel with a large duolock snap to attach everything to. Most of the time I run trolling flies behind divers or else meat rigs while running spoons from other setups. From the dipsy to the flasher or Spin Doctor I run a 4-6 ft. 40 lb test mono leader tied directly to the attractor swivel and then attach the loop of the (homemade) fly (18-21 inches long 50 lb test mono) to the rear of the attractor. If I use divers in shallow in the Spring for browns they are the small divers ( or for longer leads I use slide divers) with an 8 ft 15-20 lb test fluoro leader with a small Spro swivel three to four feet up the leader and a small Duolock snap at the lure end for spoons or for some tie directly with loop knot to a stickbait for example.

Again, different tools from the toolbox. The original concern was use of wire with divers. wire and divers is just one set of tools in the box. The depth ssituation has many solutions from the toolbox

It sure doesn't have to be an all or nothing situation for either type diver and they both work well when set up right. This stuff is kinda like a mechanic 's toolbox. You select the right tool for the job. The job here refers to lake conditions, type of stuff you are running, and species targeted along with the time of season - in addition to a lot other factors. It isn't a matter of one method fits all or one is wrong and the other is right. For example, uring the Spring or late Fall you may be running shallow in clearer water , or you may be targeting steelies in the upper portion of the water column out in the middle of the lake and stealth may be very desirable so using slide divers may be just the ticket to get out and away from the boat without the limitations of a standard magnum or Deeper Diver. On the other hand during the Summer when the thermocline falls deep or kings are located in the 42 degree ice water at 125 ft. the Deeper Diver will get down there with the least amount of line out with wire and you may not need a real long lead 9and maybe not fluoro as well). Again, selecting the tool designed for the particular job or circumstances can make life easier. Some folks may feel more comfortable or familiar with their own particular setup and that is fine as long as it works consistently.

Sherman I use both types and they both are effective at what they do best. I have had the deeper diver hitting bottom in 155 ft of water. The stealth of the longer leads with the slide divers is great in shallower applications or higher in the water column where you want to get away from the boat noise etc. but down deep they aren't the best option.

May not be worth getting riled up about....lot more important things to be concerned about right here in our own backyard

Just to underscore my point above a little further..... Light absorption measured by say a color spectrometer is one thing, but color perception is another thing, and fish color perception is another. When you do ANY experiment where conclusions are reached based on data - experimental control is an essential feature that is critical to arriving at any accurate conclusion, hypothesis or developed theory. It is very difficult to achieve in the natural environment and that is why most experiments are conducted in laboratories where conditions permit. What I'm saying is that to jump to the conclusion that the lure you put in the water will follow these charts even if the chart is developed in the lab in terms of accuracy has many problems with that jump from one thing to the other because there are too many variables involved with too few (if any) controls. Most highly developed organisms including fish and humans have a priority in terms of what stimulation their perceptual systems and brain interpret. Color perception is complex and brain involved while other more elementary aspects such as movement discrimination and object contrast (e.g. figure /ground discrimination) are thought to be more basic and rather instantaneous because they have important functions in the organism avoiding predators and disasterous circumstances. These features may be operating before the perception and interpretation of color takes place allowing the organism to protect itself by avoidance before being attacked by a predator, or to capture prey or other food before it gets away or others get it. What I am getting at here is that even in a well controlled experiment in a lab - let alone a natural setting there can be other things involved that may be responsible for a given behavior than the specific thing being looked at. Lure action and movement, and the contrast between figure and ground in my view comes way before color perception in terms of adaptiveness and it is hard to control for that and any conclusion reached may be faulty as a result. Even assuming the color chart is accurate what do you think happens on cloudy days, bright sunny days, heavy algae deposits in the water, effects of recent rain, mud being stirred up in the area, creek run-off and on and on. And then there is the introduction of fluorescent and UV lures.....way too many variables to make firm conclusions.

Slide divers are a whole different matter as they are usually run in the upper part of the water column and excel at that in terms of stealth etc. but for running deeper Deep Divers are the way to go. Slide divers don't offer much if any advantage in that regard.

An additional consideration regarding the dipsy leader and leader to spoon or fly; i know it may be considered blasphemy by many hard core fishermen but I use 40 lb Big game MONO rather than fluorocarbon for the dipsy leader and 50 lb test for my hand tied flies. The reason is this - mono has a bit of stretch which when using wire offers some desirable shock absorption while fluorocarbon does not and in my view may be more susceptible to failure especially at the knot. Thus with mono a snubber not necessary. I use flurocarbon leaders on all my toplines, downriggers etc. and shallow water applications where the increased stiffness of the line and reduced visibility can be of value but in the deep dipsy application where visual stealth isn't a factor and the lack of stretch isn't a plus and the lure is running deep most of the time I think mono is superior for that particular thing. I know others will have a very different view but something to think about anyway.