LongLine

Gill - I think I've stated many times that just stocking AS there won't work unless some forms of Habitat Restoration take place (as noted in other places) and that further experimentation takes place. I.E. The "powers" need to stop "Half-stepping." I didn't make the decision to restore native fishes to the Great Lakes. Kings introduced to reduce alewives. Sportfishing for them came later. The recent experiment (30K fingerlings at the mouth) is showing better results than previous experiments. Although it's not yielded "instant gratification." Some AS Nat Repro has been detected in the SR. (view that video) With the SR restoration project; will it increase to where they out-compete the Kings? (As feared in some places on the west coast with accidental AS farm releases?) Time will tell. _______________ Chin'35 - It's already been suggested to install ice booms on the creek.

Refer to previous thread on navigation maps

Seth continues work off the Genny: Lake Guardian is in Lake Superior.

Alewives add to phosphorous loading of water. There was no uptick in phosphorous a couple years ago, yet alewife population did uptick. Phosphates and phosphorous are different. All animal life requires phosphorous. Not suggested that one seasons his food with fertilizer nor drink laundry detergent. Columbus predates Phosphate fertilizer by about 350 years. I hope no one is making their Kool-Aid with creek water: BTW: when did Sandy Creek households get sewers? Sometimes a little research is beneficial as to tree disappearance, including seeing what the Sandy town historian has documented. Mother Nature didn't cut those trees down. (where that sawdust go?) Smallmouth fishing is good. IF you catch one, it'll probably be a trophy. Closing off a section is just another exaggeration added to fuel emotions. So yes, Mother Nature has made her selection. Be happy with resident Browns, an occasional Steelhead and a stray King in the fall. (That's sarcasm) I support efforts to fully restore the fishery and its improvement.

HB - Are you serious, not knowing how man screwed up the fishery? It's darn good in your lifetime but that's only because in that time organizations have been dedicated to "unscrewing" what man did to the lake and preventing a repeat. I.E. pollution, habitat destruction, allowing invasive species to enter, all upset the ecological balance. Without those dedicated organizations and ongoing effort there'd be no fishery as we know it. The SR hatchery was opened in 1980 dedicated to the Lake Ontario fishery. Predator-preyfish concerns dictate it's nowhere near capacity. Disease concerns, cross-contamination, different water supply and expertise concerns dictate those fish be kept totally separate. ________________ As this thread deals with survival and spawning runs (AS) why not hire a fish farmer (like from East coast) to set up a small, protected farm nearshore a trib. Typical survival of stocked fish by DEC is 10-14% Farm survival is 80-90%. Survival from mouth stocking better than upstream. Why not stock a nearshore farm with the allotment of yearlings and have him "raise" them for months? Then simply release them. Try that for a couple years and see what happens.

Interesting day for research. Jeff couldn't seem to make up his mind to look at south shore or go north: The "kid" and the "little cousin" couldn't seem to find a spot to check out: Seth was working out of the Genny: Lake Guardian is at Sault Ste. Marie, looking to get into Lake Superior.

Yes, this thread has to do with Sandy as a natural spawning creek. The consensus is that it won't support Nat Repro (specifically for AS) even though it used to. Man has screwed up many tribs in the past, including Sandy, as well as the overall fishery. Efforts to establish a fishery have been tremendous. DEC, USGS in association with others deserve a lot of credit. Re-establishment of any specie requires analysis, experimentation and monitoring. Instant gratification with any animal has never been achievable, anywhere. Lake Trout was offered as a local example as experimentation has been ongoing since stocking began and will continue with Laker Habitat Restoration. (Soon to be undertaken.) I wish high success with rig sales. Habitat Restoration projects have been successful in NYS (also on the west coast) and are well underway on the SR. Federal funds are available as NOAA (the weather and mapping guys) chipped in a bunch of money for SR. To interpret questions (note ? marks) about reducing conditions (brought up by other contributors) as "proposals" may indicate someone's reading comprehension skills need improvement. No one proposed "rerouting the entire watershed." Rather the question was asked whether "some...controlled-directed"...elsewhere?" No need to mis-paraphrase with exaggeration like a politician. To bring up "contracting" in a fishing thread is totally ludicrous! No one challenged a specific contractor; only that codes & inspectors help protect clients from some that only provide a "look good" job. (Keywords: "help", "some") To continue pushing for more hatcheries for our existing fishery is lunacy given the care-in-rearing required; predator-prey balance; SR not at capacity; and that Hochul (some's favorite governor) recently approved $70 million for them. It's totally absurd to claim the current experiment (different from past and not complete yet) is a failure and then go back and edit a post with a report of catches in that area. ______________ Bloater and Cisco have been stocked to augment the food web.

"Little Cousin" put in quite a day and is headed back out for more. Will he finish before "combat" season begins???

Brian Yes, LTs not as susceptible to Thiamine issues. Referring to J.D.s posted video (a couple months ago), they also eat Gobies. LTs also live a lot longer and don't grow as fast as salmonids. Yes, Lamprey would greatly damage cold water specie. However historically, overfishing and Lampreys wiped out LT whereas overfishing and pollution are blamed for decimating AS. The verbiage associated with your chart says yellow blocks are lower than the 10 year average, red are above and green are the same. It's a time period before the current AS Sandy project. Hmm...LT down in that area yet King the same as 10 yr? King stocking was cut over that 10 yr period but LT stocking has been around 300K for a long time. We agree on a lot of points however LT restoration has gone on much longer than AS and with more experimentation/research and much greater quantities each year. It was certainly not "instant gratification." LT Strains were experimented with up till 2017: (44 years) I believe Seneca based is what is used now (?) The first naturally reproduced LT was caught by DEC in 2015. (42 years after initial stocking...refer to 2017 annual report on LT survival.) Mussels were found in 1990-1993 and 33 years later a project finally put together to improve (hopefully) LT natural reproduction. As for "damaged" AS you've caught, I haven't seen them,, but I'd venture a guess it from mating/reproduction. They really take a beating. THE NYSDEC has and continues to do a tremendous job. As for the creek itself, Habitat Restoration projects have been successful in other areas. SR Trestle Pool area has and is undergoing one. (currently in phase 3) NOAA contributed $400K for that one. SR Waterflow control is for restoration. Riparian restoration has been an ongoing project of the SRRC. Will habitat restoration projects help recruitment of AS?...yes. Will it help other specie?...yes. Can something be done about canal overflow/drainage? Canal at Bushnell basin was completely rebuilt a few years back and the system requires continuous repair/maintenance. Can some of that water be controlled - directed somewhere else? Would underground springs help cool the water? Would shaded ice booms help keep the water cooler in spring and help prevent property damage? Can more active (financial/physical) assistance be enlisted from other agencies? (USF&WS, NOAA, USGS, USACE, GLFC, LOC, NYSCC, etc) My whole point has been that more work has to be done to establish an Atlantic population. "Instant gratification" won't happen. ________________ That's why building codes and inspectors were legislated as well as professional house inspections being highly suggested for home buyers. I.E. some contractor made it "look good."

Jeff went North then back nearshore to drop "kids" off at Fair Haven. Meanwhile "little cousin" (NRTNL) back at the Genny and headed East. Seth Green also off Fair Haven and Kaho working around Sodus. Hey Seth - watch out for student drivers! Lake Guardian at Detroit.

The fishery on Lake Ontario is very good. Some years fishermen are highly successful and others not as successful, but it's still very good fishing. I've read someplace that it's the #5 top fishing place in the country. Sturgeon introduced in 2003, are showing good results but are still sparse and highly protected. (No success without Genny pollution reduction efforts.) Lake Trout, first stocked in 1973, would totally crash without continued Lamprey control. (Laker Habitat restoration on the way.) This is 2026! Steelhead involved different strains, creel limit changes, etc. Steelhead have been stocked since 1878 and some guys claim they're still scarce, even though they come from the SR. Browns seemed to be going great but recently underwent genetic mixing to reduce domestication. (Wonder why we required getting lures farther away from boats?) Even invasives (mussels, gobies, fleas etc), with perfect habitat conditions took a few years to become established. (Eradication will require many years, with Mother Nature's help.) To believe Instant gratification with the fishery is possible is a position held only by those who don't know fishery. Look at that video and listen to how current stocking differs from what the Canadians did. Not perfect, but much better results than what our neighbors accomplished. Don't know if it was true but they say, "Edison found 2,000 ways how NOT to make a light bulb." Some enjoyed living in the dark. When Wilmont (Canadian Hatchery fame) 1st introduced hatchery raised salmon, many people argued that it would never work and the only way to produce salmon was to keep poachers away from stream breeding grounds. re: https://www.afs-oc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/AEHM223p305-315Dymond.pdf I'm glad the nay-sayers were proven wrong. Fishing at all places along the 712-mile southern shore is really good on the lake all year as Kings, Cohoes, Steelhead, Browns and Lakers are available with program changes. But that fishery requires constant monitoring and solving issues. (VHS, Thiamine, etc.) It often/frequently requires an 18-35 ft boat to go offshore with piloting skills and a keen eye on the sky. Trib fishing is also very good in the fall, evident by the in/out of state crowds. They may even run into a King, Coho, or Laker immediately after ice-out. Other than those times, they have Browns with occasional Rainbows and panfish. (Although reports of Atlantics on the SR are increasing.) Can Lake-O move up on the top fishing place list with even more specie and availability overall? Maybe guides and charters don't want more business opportunity? Federal Habitat Restoration funds are available. Restoration projects have and are working in other areas. At a 2.6 to 1 ratio, "Lake guys" aren't going to lose anything. For anyone wanting to live in the past...then fine...Let's go back a little further to when tons of Atlantics were speared by fishermen. When Seth Green perfected his rig? (re above link) I'm a "Lake Guy" and not a "lip-ripper" or "snagger" but even I might try losing some lures in a tree or two. ___________ GLFC, USF&WS, OMNR&F, USGS sponsor Great Lakes Restoration. NYSDEC asks for fishermen input. Without NYSDEC we wouldn't have the lake fishery we have. They've done tremendous work. Fish you refer to come from state Hatcheries which your "favorite governor" recently authorized $70 million to rebuild and improve. (more reason to bad mouth Hochul?) The fish we're talking are Federal fish. Read: "Federal H-A-B-I-T-A-T restoration" funds are available. Sandy is warm now but didn't used to be. Late 19th century it was explicitly a salmon stream. (Refer to above link. specifically listed on pg 309). Residents, farmers, etc. (no disrespect intended) screwed it up pretty good. When did you get sewers? When was phosphate fertilizer outlawed? When was the last tree planted along the banks? Listen to previous posted Video and see that stocking the headwater doesn't work. Thanx for the effort/try. You helped eliminate one method/strategy. You reported catching a couple Atlantics up stream Sandy. Were you Bullsh[[ing us? ___________________ please re-read the entire post before cherry picking

Jefferson still docked in Oswego. Kaho traveled from Toronto to the Genny, docked overnight near the Guardian but is underway and now headed east. Lake Guardian exited Welland Canal and now in Lake Erie. Seth Green working the lake around Oswego. SS 2022 still on patrol in the east end near midlake.

So much for pollution stopping them... A bunch of small silver carp captured 80 miles from Brandon Road project which is the farthest they have traveled. Indications are that these are from spawning carp even closer. (Brandon Road project is approximately 35 miles from Lake Michigan.)

Guardian parked at the Genny, Jefferson parked at Oswego. SR12022 still on patrol on the east end.

Brian We both know there are many factors involved. I wish I had the answer to every question. Many times someone can't run into Kings so they change programs and go after Lakers or even Browns. This happens all the time and everyplace on the lake. It's great that we can do that in the fishery. Here's a good video posted 3 months ago that I think is pretty good and informative. Especially at about 20:50 they talk about how Current Atlantic stocking is different than previous Canadian Atlantics. (larger size, mouth vs upstream locations, cormorant hazing) If link doesn't work, then copy/paste it into browser: (note you may have to sign onto google to view it) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjySe9G6Oo0

Cohoes and then Kings were stocked to reduce the number of Alewife in the lake. Alewife reduction was dramatic over a couple years as Kings were found to be the "eating machines." It wasn't "instant gratification." In order to support sportfishing and maintain a balance between prey and preyfish, the state, Feds and Canadians adopted a methodology here for determining how many of each specie to stock. They also agreed upon fish management objectives in accordance with the GLFC. The preyfish assessment is very important as Mother Nature plays a major role. The methodology uses the assessment, and it's based on quantity and preyfish consumption. (No one wants to relive the hard lesson that Lake Huron.) The King is baseline with a value of 1. The Atlantic equivalent is 2.6. I.E. 2.6 Atlantics will eat as much as 1 King. Kings could be stocked at Sandy, however much smaller numbers than Atlantics. (prey-preyfish balance) Previously mentioned, with stocking survival, 3000 (minus those reported caught in lake and headwater during winter) would be associated with Sandy. Kings are not nearly as temperature tolerant as Atlantics and would not acclimate to the creek for as long as the Atlantics, hence after stocking, they'd be gone sooner. (quick water warmup reported) Additionally, Kings travel more than any salmonid and are known to stray, especially if not sufficiently acclimated to a river/stream. (Pen-rearing results.) Bottom line question is would stakeholders prefer 3000 sportfish associated with Sandy and available over winter/spring and fall or perhaps a few hundred Kings available only in the fall? ___________ Brian - Current Atlantic experiments are with a "low thiamine tolerant" strain which Canadiens didn't use. Adult Atlantics have been reported caught in West and West Central areas last and this year. Stream restoration will help all specie, (except the Lamprey which love the mud) It will probably be beneficial for landowners too. It took years to develop a lampricide and it's still not 100% If temp is an issue with Atlantics, then it's a bigger issue with Kings as Kings are not nearly as temperature tolerant as Atlantics. Loss of habitat has been a key driver in decimating fisheries worldwide. ___________ Federal funds are available for restoration projects. Isn't it about time to get some return on our taxes? ____________ Sounds to me like someone (who's previously reported catching them in the lake and headwaters) that is afraid someone else will catch them. (?) Or perhaps someone who'd rather not positively contribute to solutions. (?) Guess it's more exciting to tear things down that build on ideas. (BTW: congratulations on using paragraphs and good grammar. Posts are much easier to read than they were years ago. Please extend credit to your wife. )

So, they stock 30,000 Atlantics at Sandy. DEC estimates 10% survival of stocked fish which means 3,000 made it. At the August meeting of DEC with lake/trib charters, the West and West Central area reported "lots of big Atlantics" caught there and was confirmed by creel surveys. The 2024 presentation said more Atlantics were caught at Sandy than at the SR and at the Oak. I.E. where they stocked them. As one who claims to catch them in the lake and has previously reported catching Atlantics in that creek, right before lambasting others about naming creeks, maybe a review of technique is in order. (?) We all know fishing success can vary from one year to another and that is why fishery research is done over a period of years. Instant gratification is very difficult. I pointed out the Klamath and 3 restorations by DEC as someone claimed restorations don't work but receipts show they have. Half step effort yields half step results. Some complain about costs like it's coming out of their own pockets. It's not - Federal dollars are available for restoration. I'm sure the small minority of fishermen that want to see more environmental spending cuts will welcome another member. As to definitions of words, I don't make them up: Upsetting the prey/preyfish balance is totally unacceptable, unreasonable and not practical for the future of the fishery.

Some confuse "feasible" with "doable." For those understanding construction: It may not be "doable" to successfully paint a dry-rotted porch today But it's perfectly "feasible." I.E. replace the rotted wood in the near future. At one time it wasn't "doable" to travel by boat from Albany to Buffalo by boat. However, it was "feasible." I.E. build a canal. It may not be "doable" to control Lamprey population but was "feasible" I.E. develop chemicals/ traps. Reducing high water/storm/ice damage along portions of the southern shore was not "doable" during high water years however very "feasible." I.E. Barriers at Sodus, Port Bay, etc. Natural Reproduction of Lake Trout hasn't been "doable" but is "feasible." I.E Control Lampreys (Laker Habitat Restoration project has very high potential.) Restoration does work (Previously named 3 watersheds by the DEC). It's working on the west coast. It may not be "doable" for some member to google "Klamath River Restoration" but is "feasible" that they can. A Sandy project would be nowhere near the scope of the Klamath as it's much smaller. However, Sandy has things going for it. (as previously mentioned,) GLFC and Federal support for native species plus DEC can get federal funds and Trib guy support, etc. A year-round fishery at Sandy is not currently "doable" by dumping a minimal number of Atlantics at the mouth and with "nay-sayers stuck in the past" not advocating for it. It is however very "feasible" to be built for the grandkids.

Guardian visited Sodus and just pulled into the Genny:

Having King fishing there "like it was" is living in the past. Headwaters of all streams have fishermen in the fall, but none like the SR. 100 cars on a day is nothing like that plus hotels/motels/camps packed every day! They may have only electro caught a few Atlantics when you saw them, but I guarantee they have never electro caught Kings there (in the history of stocking) at that time. The strategy (through 2026) is to create a year-round fishery at Sandy in conjunction with federal Great Lakes Restoration. The original plan included habitat restoration. Restoration was deferred. IMO to see if direct stocking is successful without competing trout/salmon and current creek conditions. My point is that current effort is not working and the "powers that be" need to stop half stepping and get going on habitat restoration then increase stocking numbers. NOW! (Not many chicken farmers would be successful without building a hen house and installing a fox proof fence around it.) Federal funding is available and DEC has recently accomplished habitat restoration on other creeks/rivers. This should be a priority as Feds want to restore native fishes. Traditional experimental method dictates one change at a time, however ANOVA analysis accounts for multiples and can be much faster.

Welcome to the EPA Lake Guardian. Making a few 1 hour stops along the way:

Number of fishermen at your bridge is nothing compared to the SR in the fall. Some claim Sandy is a "ghost town." I remember the past too, but I don't live in it. I've accepted that my kids will never be 10 yrs old again. I'd like their kids to experience fishing success as I did. When they started stocking programs, they didn't half-step. They shouldn't half-step now. Half-a$$'d effort always yields half-a$$'d results. 50K is a drop in the bucket compared to other specie. Are you saying they're pen-rearing Atlantics? Doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results was Einstein's definition of ideocracy. BTW keep your eyes on the lake and you'll probably see the EPA Lake Guardian go by. Its at Olcott now.

Many years ago, while fishing with family, put a hook right thru ring finger. Dad said he'd get wire cutters and push it out. Mom screamed "NO, take him to doctor!" Got to doctor's and doctor pulled out some wire cutters and pushed it thru.

2904 must have found something interesting in the NE: Lake Guardian is in the Welland Canal and headed to Big-O.