Sandy as a natural spawning creek?

[LongLine]

Brian - That's the 1st year US has ever gone over 100K. All US previous years have been much closer to 50K with some years none. If you dig a little deeper, you'll see SR AS were released east of Pulaski (Richmond) and not at mouth like at Sandy.  You also see they were SEB strain and not SEB-TT.

 

HB2 - I agree with you - without Habitat restoration spawning there will fail. (I've said that a few times) Conditions aren't currently right for it. (Even though you claimed on pg 1 to see beds being dug by your cottage.)  Indeed, why waste money when you're happy with the occasional stray. Glad to see your involvement with a sewer project which indicates some creek restoration being considered.  

 

 

[King Davy]

Longline is 100% correct. The target was 250 K. This is the last year we were to get federal fish which had been a partnership for three years. We are out of that partnership because the Feds wants $2.50 per fish and DEC doesn’t  have the capital to buy them, our fish have always come from the Adirondack hatchey and Tunisian labs at Cornell. We’ve never hit any targets for max 

 

Think how fast chinooks grow. In a year they are 12 to 16 inches sometimes larger. We’d need a huge hatchery to house 1.5 M kings on top of everything else and what do you think the budget would be to feed and the utilities to keep that population alive for a year that many fish that are destined to reach those sizes. 
 

I’ll say it again this is a group of scientists trying to figure out if Atlantic salmon can be revitalized in our fisheries since they are a heritage species and like everywhere in the world that Salar have once been the top predator is this same effort going on. 
 

I love how you guys shoot from the hip but don’t have the actual facts of what’s really happening. I’m involved in it 12 months a year working with these scientists. Next time you want to make a statement drop me a DM and I’ll get you the actual facts.

[King Davy]

Imagine holding kings at Altmar for a year. Is everyone’s moving their boats up there since all the fish would have smolted on the salmon and at least the stocked survivors highly likely would return there. As crazy as it is these days up there I couldn’t imagine that scene. 

Edited 13 hours ago by King Davy

[GAMBLER]

3 hours ago, LongLine said:

Brian - That's the 1st year US has ever gone over 100K. All US previous years have been much closer to 50K with some years none. If you dig a little deeper, you'll see SR AS were released east of Pulaski (Richmond) and not at mouth like at Sandy.  You also see they were SEB strain and not SEB-TT.

 

HB2 - I agree with you - without Habitat restoration spawning there will fail. (I've said that a few times) Conditions aren't currently right for it. (Even though you claimed on pg 1 to see beds being dug by your cottage.)  Indeed, why waste money when you're happy with the occasional stray. Glad to see your involvement with a sewer project which indicates some creek restoration being considered.  

 

 

Dave and Tom,

In 1983 they stocked roughly 200,000 Atlantics in NY waters of Lake Ontario.  Clearly not the first time they ever went over 100,000.  Is Tom 100% right?  I added a receipt for my shoot from the hip comment below.  I’ll dig up yearly numbers when I have a chance.  
You wouldn’t have to move your boat to Pulaski to salmon fish Lake Ontario. Most know the majority of the salmon migrate from West to East as the season progresses.  Most of the kings are imprinted on the Salmon River and return there as it is now.  How can you not know this Dave?   

[GAMBLER]

Another shoot from the hip comment. A couple more years of over 100,000 Atlantics stocked.  I emailed Chris Legaurd to get the actual numbers stocked back to 1983.  

 

 

Edited 12 hours ago by GAMBLER

[King Davy]

Yeah you have the targets not the actuals. The Fed fish came from Champlain and they couldn’t meet the targets. DEC ended their relationship with Tunison and Cornell once they signed on with the Feds. So couldn’t back fill from there. Now back to just Adirondack and we’ll see what they can come up with besides stocking all the finger lakes. 
 

Brian I truly don’t understand the hard feeling against an iconic legendary sport fish especially when it’s not interfering with any other species stocked and to where most of the study is with Federal environmental groups in partnership with DEC. Mike Connerton at Cape Vincent is the catalyst on the DEC side  and the one collecting tissue and scale samples we are sending. Our region 8 biologist Mike D has with the region 8 crew electrofishing the estuaries at Sandy and the Oak all the way up to the road hole and have shocked lots of salmon last October. I wish I would have kept the pictures they sent us. 
 

My experience last fall in early to mid Oct more ASalmon were being caught in the oak than brown trout. I had a day where I landed half a dozen up to 10 pounds. As you know we struggled with low water the past couple years which is critical especially for Atlantic Salmon so you’ll get trickles instead of large runs. 
 

No different than sea run fish. Low water poor returns. Get a rain event the river gets flush with fish. So tell us what are you missing out on because the Feds and DEC are working on this. 

[King Davy]

And you solidify my comments. Take your 2017 number. 127k fish stocked. Standard scientific estimate 10% survival to adult stage to be in the sport fishery equals 12,700 catchable adult salmon in a lake the size of LO. 
 

So you might say then what’s the use and I can get that. That’s a reasonable observation. But the state is also putting tons of energy into the same revitalization of Brook trout in the Adirondacks and Catskills. A project to connect dozens of miles of the moose river by fixing culverts to allow these trout to get up to top spawning habitat that is taking years, and may be several more years to finish.
 

Heritage fish species to our state waters are always going to get attention these days. Atlantic Salmon, Brook trout, lake trout, sturgeon, even Cisco’s. Actually no skin off of any other program. 

[GAMBLER]

28 minutes ago, King Davy said:

Yeah you have the targets not the actuals. The Fed fish came from Champlain and they couldn’t meet the targets. DEC ended their relationship with Tunison and Cornell once they signed on with the Feds. So couldn’t back fill from there. Now back to just Adirondack and we’ll see what they can come up with besides stocking all the finger lakes. 
 

Brian I truly don’t understand the hard feeling against an iconic legendary sport fish especially when it’s not interfering with any other species stocked and to where most of the study is with Federal environmental groups in partnership with DEC. Mike Connerton at Cape Vincent is the catalyst on the DEC side  and the one collecting tissue and scale samples we are sending. Our region 8 biologist Mike D has with the region 8 crew electrofishing the estuaries at Sandy and the Oak all the way up to the road hole and have shocked lots of salmon last October. I wish I would have kept the pictures they sent us. 
 

My experience last fall in early to mid Oct more ASalmon were being caught in the oak than brown trout. I had a day where I landed half a dozen up to 10 pounds. As you know we struggled with low water the past couple years which is critical especially for Atlantic Salmon so you’ll get trickles instead of large runs. 
 

No different than sea run fish. Low water poor returns. Get a rain event the river gets flush with fish. So tell us what are you missing out on because the Feds and DEC are working on this. 

Dave,

I have nothing against Atlantic salmon.  They are a cool species and another species to catch.  What I’m against is throwing money at a program that is doomed to succeed due to an alewife diet.  I look at the Atlantic program like my retirement.  I am not for pumping money and resources into a program with such low yields.  If the food source in Lake Ontario didn’t cause adult mortality and  natural reproduction issues, put more effort into the program.  When you can’t target a species stocked with regularity (on both trib and lake), the juice isn’t worth the squeeze.  I would

love to see the numbers shocked in Sandy.  They were shocking last fall and the guys that talked with the shocking crew said numbers were not good.  

[GAMBLER]

11 minutes ago, King Davy said:

And you solidify my comments. Take your 2017 number. 127k fish stocked. Standard scientific estimate 10% survival to adult stage to be in the sport fishery equals 12,700 catchable adult salmon in a lake the size of LO. 
 

12,700 fish in that year.  Let’s not forget the Canadian stockings, and multiple year classes.   Atlantics should spawn more than once in their life cycle.  The tribs should have way higher numbers than they do for the numbers stocked and multiple years classes of Atlantics.  Atlantics are stocked in a handful of tribs on the south shore.  If you take your 12,700 survivor number, divide it by the 4 or 5 tribs the stock, we should see way more Atlantics in the tribs.  

[HB2]

14 hours ago, LongLine said:

 

 

HB2 - I agree with you - without Habitat restoration spawning there will fail. (I've said that a few times) Conditions aren't currently right for it. (Even though you claimed on pg 1 to see beds being dug by your cottage.)  Indeed, why waste money when you're happy with the occasional stray. Glad to see your involvement with a sewer project which indicates some creek restoration being considered.  

 

 

Where did you get that out of that ? 

 

I saw beds being dug by Salmon , certainly not Atlantic's . 

 

You are twisting my words to justify your bad choice to waste money in a stream that has little to no chance of working . If that stream was a feasible ( there's that word again ) option for the Atlantic's , there would be a decent run at least somewhat the last few years . Water temps and flow are good after slow release but they chose not to run . 

Maybe this year will be better with better flow . 

Shocking boat get very few the last few years , I've seen and talked with t them about 8 times . 

[King Davy]

You see the difference you are looking at this as a sport fishery while many in the scientific community are looking at this as a revitalization of a native species. Just like sturgeon. I’m going to see the shocking crew next week as we are studying the wild browns of Irondequoit. Mike and his crew I know had a couple good nights on Sandy and the Oak because they sent me pictures and were happy with the results. 
 

the only New York State hatchery that are raising Atlantic salmon from egg stage is Adirondack. Which they do for the entire state. 
To your point according to what Steve Hurst told me in 2024 the deal with getting federal fish was coming to an end this year due to cost which should make you happy the state isn’t spending extra on getting Atlantic salmon

 

South Sandy, Salmon River and Irondequoit creek are the only streams on our south shore that could produce wild fish according to the studies they’ve done on suitable habitat. When I was on the advisory board with DEC I urged them to stock salmon there to see if we could foster a wild strain of fish. DEC was focused on creating a sport fishery which to both our points on survival to adult stage requires lots more fish which they don’t and never will have. But they went ahead and did so anyway by continuing the stocking at the oak and now Sandy. Mike our region 8 biologist told me the creel number for the fall winter spring count of A Salmon caught was 1200 I think in 2023. I bet it was even greater in 2025. However as much as I fish that stream I never talked to a creel agent but I caught plenty Atlantics as did many around me.especially in October before the pacific salmon took over which they do.

 

Today DEC has finally started a program in Irondequoit which I believe is the result of the solid wild population that was discovered of brown trout in the creek and yes I will pat our Seth Green TU group on the back especially our conservation chair who urged Mike and his shocking crew to try it and they were blown away with how many wild browns they found.

 

in conjunction with the powder mill hatchery DEC provides 5000 salmon par. They received the first batch of fish in 2025. Held them for a full year and this spring released them down lower in the stream to hopefully help them find Lake Ontario. We don’t expect to see any of these fish as adults for up to five years from now. Maybe some grilse will come in sooner. 
 

But Irondequoit has water quality (cool summer water and loads of spawning habitat and since brown trout are having great success reproducing and Atlantic salmon have the same temperature tolerance as browns thus could be a stream that could be that niche fishery. 
 

My good friend Stacy F from the USGS offices in Oswego is the point person for the Feds and is monitoring the program with DEC. Are we going to have a major sport fishery for A salmon in Lake Ontario …. Not unless we stock 10’s of thousands to millions of more fish. Could we have success of possibly revitalizing a native species in a few stream or rivers. Maybe. Is this effort truly pushing aside the stocking of all other salmonids in Lake Ontario…. Nope. 

 

 

[GAMBLER]

4 minutes ago, King Davy said:

You see the difference you are looking at this as a sport fishery while many in the scientific community are looking at this as a revitalization of a native species. Just like sturgeon. I’m going to see the shocking crew next week as we are studying the wild browns of Irondequoit. Mike and his crew I know had a couple good nights on Sandy and the Oak because they sent me pictures and were happy with the results. 
 

the only New York State hatchery that are raising Atlantic salmon from egg stage is Adirondack. Which they do for the entire state. 
To your point according to what Steve Hurst told me in 2024 the deal with getting federal fish was coming to an end this year due to cost which should make you happy the state isn’t spending extra on getting Atlantic salmon

 

South Sandy, Salmon River and Irondequoit creek are the only streams on our south shore that could produce wild fish according to the studies they’ve done on suitable habitat. When I was on the advisory board with DEC I urged them to stock salmon there to see if we could foster a wild strain of fish. DEC was focused on creating a sport fishery which to both our points on survival to adult stage requires lots more fish which they don’t and never will have. But they went ahead and did so anyway by continuing the stocking at the oak and now Sandy. Mike our region 8 biologist told me the creel number for the fall winter spring count of A Salmon caught was 1200 I think in 2023. I bet it was even greater in 2025. However as much as I fish that stream I never talked to a creel agent but I caught plenty Atlantics as did many around me.especially in October before the pacific salmon took over which they do.

 

Today DEC has finally started a program in Irondequoit which I believe is the result of the solid wild population that was discovered of brown trout in the creek and yes I will pat our Seth Green TU group on the back especially our conservation chair who urged Mike and his shocking crew to try it and they were blown away with how many wild browns they found.

 

in conjunction with the powder mill hatchery DEC provides 5000 salmon par. They received the first batch of fish in 2025. Held them for a full year and this spring released them down lower in the stream to hopefully help them find Lake Ontario. We don’t expect to see any of these fish as adults for up to five years from now. Maybe some grilse will come in sooner. 
 

But Irondequoit has water quality (cool summer water and loads of spawning habitat and since brown trout are having great success reproducing and Atlantic salmon have the same temperature tolerance as browns thus could be a stream that could be that niche fishery. 
 

My good friend Stacy F from the USGS offices in Oswego is the point person for the Feds and is monitoring the program with DEC. Are we going to have a major sport fishery for A salmon in Lake Ontario …. Not unless we stock 10’s of thousands to millions of more fish. Could we have success of possibly revitalizing a native species in a few stream or rivers. Maybe. Is this effort truly pushing aside the stocking of all other salmonids in Lake Ontario…. Nope. 

 

 

I'll say it again.  With alewife as the dominant food source, it's going to be more of the same old issues (this is my number one issue with the Atlantic program).  The scientists know this, yet we continue to pump resources and money into the project.  Stock them in the best tributaries, fewer tributaries and move on.  I would feel the same way with lakers and sturgeon.  If the food they were eating in the lake was causing adult mortality and their populations weren't thriving, it's time to move the resources somewhere else in the lake that is more useful.  Trying to get lakers and Atlantics to naturally reproduce in huge numbers will take decades of evolving in both species.  Stream and spawning rehab projects are great, but Thiamine deficiency is a huge issue and isn't going away anytime soon.    Dumping Atlantics in Oak Orchard and Sandy where they have zero percent chance of spawning successfully AND the offspring surviving is ridiculous (this is the other big issue with me on the Atlantic program). Stock them where they have the greatest chance.  We stock kings in bigger numbers to increase survival.  We spread out the small amount of Atlantics to a couple sites when you could find fewer sites that are more apt to support natural reproduction and SURVIVAL of the offspring.  Manage the Atlantics as a tributary species like steelhead.  Stock them in tribs that give them the best chances.  Make those tributaries the destination tribs for Atlantic salmon.  Worry about what is best for restoring Atlantic populations (if that is what this program is truly about) before worrying about a sport fishery for them (like the sturgeon).  Stock them in fewer sites giving them better survival in numbers (like they did with the kings when they dropped a couple pen rearing sites).  This summer, I participated in the King DNA study on the lake.  We also had sampling containers for Atlantics.  I was able to sample the only Atlantic we caught this summer.  It was the smallest Atlantic I have ever caught on Lake Ontario in 42 years of fishing the lake.  It was sampled and released and swam away strong. It is great to see the DEC leaning on Lake and Trib guys to gain data.  Over the years, the resource was there and they didn't take advantage of it.