Sandy as a natural spawning creek?

[rolmops]

I'm just curious. 

Are there any potential spawning beds in Sandy Creek? Does anybody ever notice  salmon swimming upstream  in the creek or dead salmon in the reeds ?

 

 

Edited Thursday at 12:44 AM by rolmops

[LazyRiver585]

There is natural reproduction in Sandy. The natural repo that does take place is very very minimal. Nothing that could sustain the fishery without stocking programs. 
 

[HB2]

I have been saying there is South shore tribes Nat reprodution , especially Sandy for years . Got a lot of flack for it also . 

 

 

[GAMBLER]

There is some but very little.  Sandy lacks good gravel in most stretches of the creek.  High water years, fish can get way upstream and conditions are better up there for spawning.  

[UNREEL]

44 minutes ago, GAMBLER said:

There is some but very little.  Sandy lacks good gravel in most stretches of the creek.  High water years, fish can get way upstream and conditions are better up there for spawning.  

Like this year? Lake levels are running almost 1.5 ft over long term average

[GAMBLER]

1 minute ago, UNREEL said:

Like this year? Lake levels are running almost 1.5 ft over long term average

It's rainfall in the fall not lake level.  

[LongLine]

It may be a good year for the Atlantics. (?)

[rolmops]

There is change in the air. New dietary advice is at 4 meals a month for salmon out of Lake Ontario. The clean water act has quietly done its thing for over fifty years.

Maybe the time has come to start pushing for Creek rehabilitation along the southern shores of Lake Ontario. So we can come up to the same quality of creek management that exists on the northern shores of the lake. In the upper Irondequoit Creek  there already is natural reproduction of brown trout ( this has been known to dedicated fly fisherman for a few years now). 

I would like to see a big beautiful Lake Ontario restoration bill  so the improvement that has started can be continued, so we have something to give to our children.

If any of you ever go to events where politicians are trying to promote themselves, ask them what they intent to do for the lake.

Edited Thursday at 03:58 PM by rolmops

[fisherdude]

1 hour ago, rolmops said:

There is change in the air. New dietary advice is at 4 meals a month for salmon out of Lake Ontario. The clean water act has quietly done its thing for over fifty years.

Maybe the time has come to start pushing for Creek rehabilitation along the southern shores of Lake Ontario. So we can come up to the same quality of creek management that exists on the northern shores of the lake. In the upper Irondequoit Creek  there already is natural reproduction of brown trout ( this has been known to dedicated fly fisherman for a few years now). 

I would like to see a big beautiful Lake Ontario restoration bill  so the improvement that has started can be continued, so we have something to give to our children.

If any of you ever go to events where politicians are trying to promote themselves, ask them what they intent to do for the lake.

You are right changes are in the air. 2028 a majority lead DSA Congress. Appointed president no Senate abolish or defund DSA programs I'm sure Lake Ontario will be on their top agenda I can't wait till they help out

Edited Thursday at 05:22 PM by fisherdude
.

[rolmops]

How about we work on what unites us.

[LongLine]

The Lake Trout Habitat Restoration project proposes cleaning off some rocky areas in the lake and creating some new rocky reefs. Lakers are a "Federal fish."  So why couldn't a similar thing be done for the "other Federal fish?"  I.E. dig out/dredge a few 100-foot sections of mud a couple feet deep and replace that mud with right size gravel?  (Sell the "mud" as topsoil to recover some of the cost?...seaweed grows pretty good in it.)   Might help a little with the "stink" problem and kill a few Lampreys.  Plant a bunch more trees to help with the temperature issue?  
 

[GAMBLER]

8 minutes ago, LongLine said:

The Lake Trout Habitat Restoration project proposes cleaning off some rocky areas in the lake and creating some new rocky reefs. Lakers are a "Federal fish."  So why couldn't a similar thing be done for the "other Federal fish?"  I.E. dig out/dredge a few 100-foot sections of mud a couple feet deep and replace that mud with right size gravel?  (Sell the "mud" as topsoil to recover some of the cost?...seaweed grows pretty good in it.)   Might help a little with the "stink" problem and kill a few Lampreys.  Plant a bunch more trees to help with the temperature issue?  
 

Tom,

 

I'm not sure how that would work with most of Sandy being on private land and very little access for equipment.  

[bluegiller]

46 minutes ago, GAMBLER said:

Tom,

 

I'm not sure how that would work with most of Sandy being on private land and very little access for equipment.  

I think the other problem is Sandy drains a ton of farm land you can put all the perfect gravel in place and 3 years later it will have that same mud. Almost every river , stream , ditch creek on the south shore drains farm land, and that means dirt, mud. Maybe some of the far east end streams stand a chance , but anything draining farm land will just sit in fast. 

[HB2]

In my opinion , the northern shore tribs are  taking over the king population in the lake . Seems to me the tipping point was maybe 2010 or earlier . The more that are naturally reproduced up there , the more there will be the next year . And the Canadian DNR closed a few of the major tribs  that got big runs to fishing a few years ago so that was means even more . And the NY DEC really has no control over it ..

 

As far as Sandy , I see fish digging beds in front of me sometimes , especially on lower flow years . 

 

I'm also think the reason we get a lot of Jacks and mature 2 year olds is quite possibly they are strays . The bigger fish know where their home streams are .Which is why the Canadian side gets bigger fish . 

It all seems to make sense  to me . 

[rolmops]

Would a tree planting project along the creek be feasible?

Come to think of it.., I would volunteer my time to do some trudging through the mud and plant trees along the creek. 

Not only do the trees anchor the soil and provide shade, the leafs falling in the water provide the basic food for insects like may flies and such at the bottom of the food pyramid, so planting trees really does a lot more than just give shade. The more trees the more bugs for the fish to eat. Heck planting trees may even bring stream fishermen and lake fishermen together in a joint project. 

Schreckstoff  chime in please.

Edited Thursday at 11:26 PM by rolmops

[LongLine]

Great Lake Restoration is a federal project.  Lakers and Atlantics are Federal projects.  (with some state support) North shore has good runs because they got serious about the fish.  They seem to have more gravel beds and colder water. Our Feds, after 40+ years of Laker failure seem to finally be getting serious about them with the Laker Habitat Restoration project. 

 

Sandy isn't getting King stocking, rather it's been designated for Atlantic stocking.  IMO, rather than wasting more years of Atlantic failure, Feds should get off the pot and get serious about Atlantic habitat. I.E. "put up or shut up."

 

Dredging of these proposed small areas doesn't have to be done with heavy equipment on shore.  There are such things as Mini-dredges, Compact dredges and boat/pontoon dredges.  Equipment that dredge on the water that require only a foot or 2 of water such as what is used in wetlands and swamps. They are trailer launched.  

 

"Where there is a will there is a way."

 

As for reducing silt, trees such as Willows would help tremendously.  Google "silt control on streams."  10 to 15 feet of vegetation (thick grass) is highly recommended for Stream bank silt control.  How many farmers plant their crops right up to waters edge?   Trees providing shade on the water would go a long way to help keep the water cooler.

 

That group did a good job on Irondequoit creek with state, why not on Sandy with Feds and state? 

 

 

 

 

[HB2]

Plenty of trees Along Sandy creek 

 

Sandy creek drains farmland for a long  way upstream . A lot of smaller tiny creeks join it on the way down to the lake . Canal spillways , I think there are 2 , keep at least some flow all year . The bottom is muddy and Sandy , hence the name . 

 

When flow is low , it gets very hot . Just the way it is . It is very volatile when it comes to water temp swings  .I seen it go from skim ice to 60 in a week or less . 

 

Fall , when fish return , salmon and trout , they drop eggs . So if they do and the eggs hatch , some probably make it . And there are some things that probably influence the success of that . 

 

Can't really blame feds for any of this. I've seen the shocking boats many times looking for Atlantic's with dismal results . They say stream guys are getting them sometimes but I wonder if the fisherman get confused with slender  fresh browns .

 

I don't think the DEC wants kings in Sandy . They have as much as said it to me . When I ask why we don't get pen kings , and I ask every time I see the shocking boat, they always say we give you guys a lot of browns and Atlantic's .And you guys pen steelhead . They also say that Sandy is a destination brown trout stream . And I don't think  the fly guys  want guys chasing salmon around up there . And the stakeholder creeks , cry they want more kings  and they gave them ours . 

 

There use to be a bunch of boats under the parkway bridge fishing skine under floats . Now is a ghost town sometimes . That part don't bother me .

 

It's never going to be like it was  Mid Aug on . Canadian natural reprodution has taken over . So we should be grateful for our spring summer fishery , which has been and will hopefully continue to be great . 

 

 

 

 

[LazyRiver585]

Sandy does not have a cold water spring feeding it like that of Irondequoit or even something as tiny as four mile (that also has extremely minimal natural repo occurring). Water temps are not conducive to promote repo from other salmonid species that would need to spend more time in the trib before returning to the lake.  Round pond creek in Greece hasn’t been stocked in decades. 10/15 years ago it used to get a great run of coho and browns. Mud/sediment settling, housing developments, and natural dams (trees/beavers) have changed that drastically. 
specific to sandy: the last brown trout I saw make it up to the Holley falls was close to 20 years ago. Not as many steelhead get up there in the spring these days either.

[GAMBLER]

12 hours ago, HB2 said:

Plenty of trees Along Sandy creek 

 

Sandy creek drains farmland for a long  way upstream . A lot of smaller tiny creeks join it on the way down to the lake . Canal spillways , I think there are 2 , keep at least some flow all year . The bottom is muddy and Sandy , hence the name . 

 

When flow is low , it gets very hot . Just the way it is . It is very volatile when it comes to water temp swings  .I seen it go from skim ice to 60 in a week or less . 

 

Fall , when fish return , salmon and trout , they drop eggs . So if they do and the eggs hatch , some probably make it . And there are some things that probably influence the success of that . 

 

Can't really blame feds for any of this. I've seen the shocking boats many times looking for Atlantic's with dismal results . They say stream guys are getting them sometimes but I wonder if the fisherman get confused with slender  fresh browns .

 

I don't think the DEC wants kings in Sandy . They have as much as said it to me . When I ask why we don't get pen kings , and I ask every time I see the shocking boat, they always say we give you guys a lot of browns and Atlantic's .And you guys pen steelhead . They also say that Sandy is a destination brown trout stream . And I don't think  the fly guys  want guys chasing salmon around up there . And the stakeholder creeks , cry they want more kings  and they gave them ours . 

 

There use to be a bunch of boats under the parkway bridge fishing skine under floats . Now is a ghost town sometimes . That part don't bother me .

 

It's never going to be like it was  Mid Aug on . Canadian natural reprodution has taken over . So we should be grateful for our spring summer fishery , which has been and will hopefully continue to be great . 

 

 

 

 

Just because eggs hatch, doesn't mean they make it.  Most South Shore tribs can't support salmon fry after they hatched due to water temp and too many predators. The Garnaska on the North Shore and the Salmon River are the biggest contributors to the natural reproduction on Lake O.  A lot of smaller North Shore East end tribs have some decent natural reproduction.  The DEC took the king pen rearing project away because of the lack of boats fishing out of Sandy when stocking cuts came down the pipe.  They used the better survival when kings are stocked in bigger numbers.  Our kings were spread out in the other pen projects over the lake so their numbers were bigger and there was a better survival rate.   

[HB2]

King eggs hatch December ish . So that gives them 5 months and in good temps to grow a bit . Predators aren't going to get them all . We have a good flood in the spring and some of the fry might get flushed down to the lake . So a small percentage might survive . Some years might be better than others . 

 

I don't think some of you guys give mother nature a whole lot of credit for her survival instincts and desires. Ive seen them spawning in drainage ditches . We aren't talking about a cutthroat trout here . 

 

They took our kings away to give to destination tribs where returns were low due to stocking cuts etc . And there was a lot of crying from those businesses to increase the stocking numbers . The king fishing was bad for a while as I remember . And I think they are trying to engineer certain tribs for certain species. 

 

I know they increase the stocking numbers but not to the extent of the great fishing we have now . We have the Canadians to thank for that . 

Edited 11 hours ago by HB2

[chinook35]

48 minutes ago, HB2 said:

King eggs hatch December ish . So that gives them 5 months and in good temps to grow a bit . Predators aren't going to get them all . We have a good flood in the spring and some of the fry might get flushed down to the lake . So a small percentage might survive . Some years might be better than others . 

 

I don't think some of you guys give mother nature a whole lot of credit for her survival instincts and desires. Ive seen them spawning in drainage ditches . We aren't talking about a cutthroat trout here . 

 

They took our kings away to give to destination tribs where returns were low due to stocking cuts etc . And there was a lot of crying from those businesses to increase the stocking numbers . The king fishing was bad for a while as I remember . And I think they are trying to engineer certain tribs for certain species. 

 

I know they increase the stocking numbers but not to the extent of the great fishing we have now . We have the Canadians to thank for that . 

The DEC has reduced king stocking over the years because NY state and the DEC regard king/coho salmon as invasive species ( which they are ) 

the push for years has been reestablishing native species LT , Cisco , Atlantic salmon 

this has had very poor results .

What we seem to overlook is that the pacific salmon were introduced in the ‘70’s to help control the alewife ( mooneye) population  , that was a resounding success. The sport fishery , in my opinion was a bonus , but not the focus. And it still isn’t as far as NY state is concerned 

[fisherdude]

Meanwhile the state just gave seven and a quarter million to lawyers for illegal migrant kids . They didn't think for one minute of improving salmon fishing nor are going to .. 

[LongLine]

Sandy Creek has a few things going for it.  Namely the Great Lakes Restoration project, Lamprey control, State Launch, some fishing access and many of the top 25 posters on this site. (Although some others are negative, loud, highly political and off their meds) 

 

Stakeholders have often been successful in steering the "powers that be" to action by bringing concerns to their attention. Discussion on the Sandy launch have pushed the state to partially fix it this month. (Although not scheduled till later) . Some projects have been highly supported by stakeholders like pen-rearing. Other actions include resumption of spending for Lamprey control, creel limits, I-creek restoration, resuscitating I-Bay, 3-rod rule, etc. 

 

Sandy has been designated for Browns and Atlantics.  These fish don't require the conditions that Kings do. (water flow, oxygen content, temperature, habitat etc.)  However they do require habitat.

 

The DEC does receive federal funds for fishery management and restoration. In 2024, DEC accomplished projects to limit sedimentation and bank erosion to enhance spawning habitat for Browns and Atlantics on the Saranac River, Chittenango Creek and Wiscoy Creek in conjunction with fishing groups.  They also secured many easements across the state for fishing access. 

 

Lack of fishing effort? Fishermen will flock to where the fish are. Trollers flock westward in the spring. Trib guys go east in the fall. Why not pressure the "powers that be" to make Sandy the "Atlantic capital" in the Central area?   Improve the habitat, Increase stocking, (pen-rear Atlantics?) increase access. Maybe get some Trib guy support?  Feds and state would  probably jump on it if stakeholders want it, especially with restoration of native specie in mind.