Sandy as a natural spawning creek?

[HB2]

2 hours ago, LongLine said:

Number of fishermen at your bridge is nothing compared to the SR in the fall. Some claim Sandy is a "ghost town." 

 

I remember the past too, but I don't live in it.  I've accepted that my kids will never be 10 yrs old again.  I'd like their kids to experience fishing success as I did.  

 

When they started stocking programs, they didn't half-step.  They shouldn't half-step now. Half-a$$'d effort always yields half-a$$'d results.

 

50K is a drop in the bucket compared to other specie. Are you saying they're pen-rearing Atlantics?  Doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results was Einstein's definition of ideocracy. 

 

BTW keep your eyes on the lake and you'll probably see the EPA Lake Guardian go by. Its at Olcott now. 
 

 

I counted 110 cars at all the bridges from Holley to the lake 1 day . I hardly call that a ghost town . Brown time there are lots of cars at many of the bridges all fall . And that's since I've had my cottage It ain't the Salmon river but it's a lot .And have you seen the Oak or Burt ? It's crazy town some days . Take a ride Columbus day and see for yourself .b

 

I'm not trying to live in the past . But I'm a if it's not broke don't fix it type of guy . I would bet big money i spend more time fishing Sandy than anyone else since I bought my cottage . I see people , I talk to people , I see what they catch .I talk to the Atlantic shocking boats . They get very little fish . 4 one day was the most .  DEC asked to put pens at my place and I gladly did and would do it again. So I see first hand , not by some statistics and figures . 

 

I was willing to give the Atlantics a chance . Returns to Sandy are dimal for the amount stocked as I see it . 

The survey guys say the same . The juice ain't worth the squeeze. Maybe more Coho, domestics and here's a thought  , Kings again . 

 

 

 

[LongLine]

Having King fishing there "like it was" is living in the past.  Headwaters of all streams have fishermen in the fall, but none like the SR.  100 cars on a day is nothing like that plus hotels/motels/camps packed every day!

 

They may have only electro caught a few Atlantics when you saw them, but I guarantee they have never electro caught Kings there (in the history of stocking) at that time.

 

The strategy (through 2026) is to create a year-round fishery at Sandy in conjunction with federal Great Lakes Restoration.   The original plan included habitat restoration.  Restoration was deferred.  IMO to see if direct stocking is successful without competing trout/salmon and current creek conditions. 

 

My point is that current effort is not working and the "powers that be" need to stop half stepping and get going on habitat restoration then increase stocking numbers.  NOW!  (Not many chicken farmers would be successful without building a hen house and installing a fox proof fence around it.)  Federal funding is available and DEC has recently accomplished habitat restoration on other creeks/rivers. This should be a priority as Feds want to restore native fishes. 

 

Traditional experimental method dictates one change at a time, however ANOVA analysis accounts for multiples and can be much faster. 

[HB2]

Did we ever consider that maybe why the current efforts aren't working is because the reality is that it's not feasible ? At some point you have to stop trying to jam a square peg in a round hole . Spend the resources on what actually and has proven to work. The priority of funding should be on what works . Stop throwing good money after bad . 

 

A year round fishery in Sandy for what , Atlantic salmon ? Is that what you are saying ?  How's that work in the dead of summer with a trickle of a flow and water temps in the high 80s ? With the only flow from the canal spillways that is warm water .  Some falls the water is so low it's unfishable , or at least to me it is. And the fish stack up in front of me waiting for flow . An added bonus of low water for me . 

 

I'm here , I see it . I'm not an armchair QB . 

 

And what's the Salmon river got to do with this ? I thought this was about Sandy ?  We had a great fishery in Sandy forl mid Aug on kings before they pulled the pen kings. Also   Tons of browns and domestic rainbows ( don't see those anymore ) with steelhead mixed in as water temps drop. Also Coho when they stock them . Use the hatchery space for those species . 

 

The didn't have to shock kings because they were flying out of the water everywhere. Why ? Because lake and stream conditions  are conducive for their success . If it was for Atlantic's , they would have taken hold by now . 

 

Is anyone catching Atlantic's year round  at the Oak or Irondequoit or the Salmon river ?  Those streams seem more conducive for a summer fishery.  . 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 16 by HB2

[LazyRiver585]

In my opinion from what I’ve seen over the years: Building up bank trees/shade and other habitat restoration will never work on sandy. Efforts might be sustained through mild winters but after a typical winter I think the amount of ice that comes down sandy will rip it all back away. Just like it does every year to anything else in its way on that creek. I’m sure there are measures to combat that from happening but those measures deplete the budget quickly

[rolmops]

The amount of ice becomes less and less the higher upstream you go and as trees cover more of a canopy over the feeder creeks, they lower the water temperature, as some fall into those feeder creeks they will create currents, holes and water retention, which can change the character of the creek. Add to that a few deep dug swim holes and it may become more hospitable to natural reproduction. 
When you make the round holes a bit more square and round out the square pegs a bit they will fit better 

[LongLine]

Some confuse "feasible" with "doable." For those understanding construction: It may not be "doable" to successfully paint a dry-rotted porch today   But it's perfectly "feasible." I.E. replace the rotted wood in the near future.  

 

At one time it wasn't "doable" to travel by boat from Albany to Buffalo by boat. However, it was "feasible." I.E. build a canal.  It may not be "doable" to control Lamprey population but was "feasible" I.E. develop chemicals/ traps. 

 

Reducing high water/storm/ice damage along portions of the southern shore was not "doable" during high water years however very "feasible." I.E. Barriers at Sodus, Port Bay, etc. Natural Reproduction of Lake Trout hasn't been "doable" but is "feasible." I.E Control Lampreys (Laker Habitat Restoration project has very high potential.)
 
Restoration does work (Previously named 3 watersheds by the DEC).  It's working on the west coast. It may not be "doable" for some member to google "Klamath River Restoration" but is "feasible" that they can. A Sandy project would be nowhere near the scope of the Klamath as it's much smaller.  However, Sandy has things going for it. (as previously mentioned,) GLFC and Federal support for native species plus DEC can get federal funds and Trib guy support, etc.

 

A year-round fishery at Sandy is not currently "doable" by dumping a minimal number of Atlantics at the mouth and with "nay-sayers stuck in the past" not advocating for it.  It is however very "feasible" to be built for the grandkids. 
 

[HB2]

Feasible ... Possible to do , a realistic or practical task .

 

Feasible , the exact word to use . Practical . It might be possible or doable  , but at what cost ? And what is the end game ? Is it practical ? Or Feasible ? 

 

Is it practical to throw a ton of  time and resources to a project that might work ? 

 

The Kalmath river project is no where near the same as this . The West Coast rivers drain mountains of snow and ice water . Not nearly the same . 

 

And as a guy who by his own admission has only done trib fishing once , how would you know the particulars of Sandy ? I've spent thousands of hrs on the tribs . I know Sandy pretty well and there are a lot of overhanging trees . And the water still gets hot . It's a mid Sept at earliest to mid May at the latest fishery above the 19 bridge  . After that , it's warm water species . Sometimes it's a trickle. 

 

Let's wait and see the returns of Atlantic's this year . 

 

Last year we boated 10 in the lake , this year maybe 6 .

 

Would like to know from Sandy trib guys their catch numbers for  last few years .

 

 

[HB2]

Just checked with my fly  guide buddy who fishes Sandy a lot and he got 0 

( Zero ) Atlantic last year .  He Heard of a few caught . Hardly a success . 

 

 

And I really wanted this to succeed but at some point you have to move on . 

[LongLine]

So, they stock 30,000 Atlantics at Sandy. DEC estimates 10% survival of stocked fish which means 3,000 made it. At the August meeting of DEC with lake/trib charters, the West and West Central area reported "lots of big Atlantics" caught there and was confirmed by creel surveys.  The 2024 presentation said more Atlantics were caught at Sandy than at the SR and at the Oak.  I.E. where they stocked them.

 

As one who claims to catch them in the lake and has previously reported catching Atlantics in that creek, right before lambasting others about naming creeks, maybe a review of technique is in order. (?) 

 

We all know fishing success can vary from one year to another and that is why fishery research is done over a period of years. Instant gratification is very difficult.

 

I pointed out the Klamath and 3 restorations by DEC as someone claimed restorations don't work but receipts show they have. Half step effort yields half step results.   Some complain about costs like it's coming out of their own pockets. It's not - Federal dollars are available for restoration. I'm sure the small minority of fishermen that want to see more environmental spending cuts will welcome another member.

 

As to definitions of words, I don't make them up:

 

 

Upsetting the prey/preyfish balance is totally unacceptable, unreasonable and not practical for the future of the fishery. 

 

[LazyRiver585]

Majority private land. Lawyers, contracts, MONEY…. Significant amount of hoops to jump through. I’m not saying I don’t enjoy the thought of it all. I’m just not getting my hopes up.

[GAMBLER]

You can throw all the money in the world at restoring Sandy for the Atlantic program and the FACT is, with alewife as the main food source, Atlantics will not reproduce well or even survive to adulthood in a large percentage of cases.  There have been studies done that show the thiamine deficiency issue is not good at all for Atlantics.  The St, Mary River in Superior and Huron have good returns.  Why is that?  A diverse diet with very little alewife.........  I find Atlantics a cool species but spending time and resources for decades on the program with very little success is silly. The juice isn't worth the squeeze!

[HB2]

And I've been thinking 

 

They dump a bunch in at Sandy for a few years .

They send in the shocking boats to survey them multiple times . They get dismal results . And I have been there most times to talk with them . 

 

They can't even get the Atlantic's to enter the estuary to begin the journey upstream . That should tell anyone enough . 

 

[GAMBLER]

Just now, HB2 said:

And I've been thinking 

 

They dump a bunch in at Sandy for a few years .

They send in the shocking boats to survey them multiple times . They get dismal results . And I have been there most times to talk with them . 

 

They can't even get the Atlantic's to enter the estuary to begin the journey upstream . That should tell anyone enough . 

 

They can't return to the streams if they die before its time.  Adult mortality is a huge issue when they are on an alewife diet.  Look at the numbers dumped on the Canadian tribs.  Returns of less than 2 dozen with hundreds of thousands stocked.  Again, the juice isn't worth the squeeze.  NY and Ontario Atlantic stocking numbers are higher than coho yet, the Salmon River is full of cohos come October........

[GAMBLER]

On 8/15/2026 at 6:54 PM, LongLine said:

Having King fishing there "like it was" is living in the past.  Headwaters of all streams have fishermen in the fall, but none like the SR.  100 cars on a day is nothing like that plus hotels/motels/camps packed every day!

 

They may have only electro caught a few Atlantics when you saw them, but I guarantee they have never electro caught Kings there (in the history of stocking) at that time.

 

The strategy (through 2026) is to create a year-round fishery at Sandy in conjunction with federal Great Lakes Restoration.   The original plan included habitat restoration.  Restoration was deferred.  IMO to see if direct stocking is successful without competing trout/salmon and current creek conditions. 

 

My point is that current effort is not working and the "powers that be" need to stop half stepping and get going on habitat restoration then increase stocking numbers.  NOW!  (Not many chicken farmers would be successful without building a hen house and installing a fox proof fence around it.)  Federal funding is available and DEC has recently accomplished habitat restoration on other creeks/rivers. This should be a priority as Feds want to restore native fishes. 

 

Traditional experimental method dictates one change at a time, however ANOVA analysis accounts for multiples and can be much faster. 

Tom,

Stream restoration and stocking more Atlantics will not do much.  The thiamine issue and Atlantics are a huge hurdle that has to stop being ignored.  You can have the best spawning habitat in the world.  If they don't survive to adulthood and return from an alewife diet, you will have empty spawning water.  The stockings they do in Canada with pitiful returns is a prime example.  Water temp is another huge issue with Sandy.  Atlantics spend a year+ in a trib before they leave to the lake.  That isn't happening in Sandy.  Irondequoit Creek is a better option since it holds trout year round.  The Atlantic experiment has been going on for decades with very very minimal advancement.  It's time to move on to something more productive.  Leave stocking levels where they are and stop wasting resources.  

 

Lake Ontario Atlantic Salmon Fisheries Management Plan 2023-2026  

 

Read this link under challenges for Atlantic salmon. Its right from the DEC.

Edited Monday at 02:30 PM by GAMBLER

[HB2]

It ain't practical or possible under the given restraints .Water temps , etc .  So it's not FEASIBLE, Sheldon . 

 

Sounds like my wife the teacher when she's loosing the discussion . She corrects my grammar . 

[LongLine]

Cohoes and then Kings were stocked to reduce the number of Alewife in the lake.  Alewife reduction was dramatic over a couple years as Kings were found to be the "eating machines." It wasn't "instant gratification." In order to support sportfishing and maintain a balance between prey and preyfish, the state, Feds and Canadians adopted a methodology here for determining how many of each specie to stock.   They also agreed upon fish management objectives in accordance with the GLFC. 

 

The preyfish assessment is very important as Mother Nature plays a major role. The methodology uses the assessment, and it's based on quantity and preyfish consumption. (No one wants to relive the hard lesson that Lake Huron.)  The King is baseline with a value of 1. The Atlantic equivalent is 2.6.  I.E. 2.6 Atlantics will eat as much as 1 King.  

 

Kings could be stocked at Sandy, however much smaller numbers than Atlantics. (prey-preyfish balance) Previously mentioned, with stocking survival, 3000 (minus those reported caught in lake and headwater during winter) would be associated with Sandy. Kings are not nearly as temperature tolerant as Atlantics and would not acclimate to the creek for as long as the Atlantics, hence after stocking, they'd be gone sooner. (quick water warmup reported) Additionally, Kings travel more than any salmonid and are known to stray, especially if not sufficiently acclimated to a river/stream. (Pen-rearing results.)   

 

Bottom line question is would stakeholders prefer 3000 sportfish associated with Sandy and available over winter/spring and fall or perhaps a few hundred Kings available only in the fall?  
___________

Brian -
Current Atlantic experiments are with a "low thiamine tolerant" strain which Canadiens didn't use. Adult Atlantics have been reported caught in West and West Central areas last and this year.  Stream restoration will help all specie, (except the Lamprey which love the mud) It will probably be beneficial for landowners too. It took years to develop a lampricide and it's still not 100%

 

If temp is an issue with Atlantics, then it's a bigger issue with Kings as Kings are not nearly as temperature tolerant as Atlantics. Loss of habitat has been a key driver in decimating fisheries worldwide. 

___________

Federal funds are available for restoration projects.  Isn't it about time to get some return on our taxes?
____________

Sounds to me like someone (who's previously reported catching them in the lake and headwaters) that is afraid someone else will catch them. (?) Or perhaps someone who'd rather not positively contribute to solutions. (?) Guess it's more exciting to tear things down that build on ideas.  (BTW: congratulations on using paragraphs and good grammar. Posts are much easier to read than they were years ago.  Please extend credit to your wife.  )
 

[GAMBLER]

41 minutes ago, LongLine said:

Cohoes and then Kings were stocked to reduce the number of Alewife in the lake.  Alewife reduction was dramatic over a couple years as Kings were found to be the "eating machines." It wasn't "instant gratification." In order to support sportfishing and maintain a balance between prey and preyfish, the state, Feds and Canadians adopted a methodology here for determining how many of each specie to stock.   They also agreed upon fish management objectives in accordance with the GLFC. 

 

The preyfish assessment is very important as Mother Nature plays a major role. The methodology uses the assessment, and it's based on quantity and preyfish consumption. (No one wants to relive the hard lesson that Lake Huron.)  The King is baseline with a value of 1. The Atlantic equivalent is 2.6.  I.E. 2.6 Atlantics will eat as much as 1 King.  

 

Kings could be stocked at Sandy, however much smaller numbers than Atlantics. (prey-preyfish balance) Previously mentioned, with stocking survival, 3000 (minus those reported caught in lake and headwater during winter) would be associated with Sandy. Kings are not nearly as temperature tolerant as Atlantics and would not acclimate to the creek for as long as the Atlantics, hence after stocking, they'd be gone sooner. (quick water warmup reported) Additionally, Kings travel more than any salmonid and are known to stray, especially if not sufficiently acclimated to a river/stream. (Pen-rearing results.)   

 

Bottom line question is would stakeholders prefer 3000 sportfish associated with Sandy and available over winter/spring and fall or perhaps a few hundred Kings available only in the fall?  
___________

Brian -
Current Atlantic experiments are with a "low thiamine tolerant" strain which Canadiens didn't use. Adult Atlantics have been reported caught in West and West Central areas last and this year.  Stream restoration will help all specie, (except the Lamprey which love the mud) It will probably be beneficial for landowners too. It took years to develop a lampricide and it's still not 100%

 

If temp is an issue with Atlantics, then it's a bigger issue with Kings as Kings are not nearly as temperature tolerant as Atlantics. Loss of habitat has been a key driver in decimating fisheries worldwide. 

___________

Federal funds are available for restoration projects.  Isn't it about time to get some return on our taxes?
____________

Sounds to me like someone (who's previously reported catching them in the lake and headwaters) that is afraid someone else will catch them. (?) Or perhaps someone who'd rather not positively contribute to solutions. (?) Guess it's more exciting to tear things down that build on ideas.  (BTW: congratulations on using paragraphs and good grammar. Posts are much easier to read than they were years ago.  Please extend credit to your wife.  )
 

Tom,

 

I believe they have been stocking the low thiamine tolerant strains since 2023.  So far, this seasons catch rates seem down from the past couple.  Shouldn't it be getting better?  Last year, catch rates seemed decent.  I have caught one Atlantic this season and it was 12" long.  Luckily it was caught when I was doing the Fin clip / Scale sample DNA study for the DEC and was able to get them data from that fish for them.  For the temp issue, its all about time in the tributary until they leave to the lake.  Kings leave the following spring.  Atlantics stay in the trib for 1 year to 18 months. If it was good enough, we would more than likely have wild trout populations in Sandy year round. The canal dumps 24x7 into Sandy.  75 degree water would be detrimental.  

[LongLine]

Brian

 

We both know there are many factors involved.  I wish I had the answer to every question.  Many times someone can't run into Kings so they change programs and go after Lakers or even Browns. This happens all the time and everyplace on the lake. It's great that we can do that in the fishery.

 

Here's a good video posted 3 months ago that I think is pretty good and informative.  Especially at about 20:50 they talk about how Current Atlantic stocking is different than previous Canadian Atlantics.  (larger size, mouth vs upstream locations, cormorant hazing) If link doesn't work, then copy/paste it into browser: (note you may have to sign onto google to view it) 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjySe9G6Oo0
 

 

[GAMBLER]

16 hours ago, LongLine said:

Brian

 

.Many times someone can't run into Kings so they change programs and go after Lakers or even Browns. This happens all the time and everyplace on the lake. It's great that we can do that in the fishery.

 

 

 

Tom,

 

Absolutely.  We can even go target steelhead and cohos.  Coho are stocked in numbers a tick above Atlantics (less if you count the Canadian stockings of Atlantics) but we can target them with success.  The diversity of this fishery is awesome.  IMO, Atlantics should just be left where they are stocking wise and resources should stop being wasted on trying to fix an issue that hasn't been fixed in 30 years.  They are a cool bycatch but a pipe dream.  Over the last couple of decades, Lakers, Atlantics and sturgeon restoration projects have been in place.  Two of the three are success stories.  If you want, you can target lakers with success its easy.  If you wanted to break the law, you could target sturgeon and catch them with regularity in the Genny.  And then there are Atlantics........ We average one a season with a lot of time on the water.   

[fisherdude]

As long as you're spending money and having pipe dreams how about bringing back the smelt runs like they used to be in the old days I wouldn't mind a 5 gallon bucket full of smelt

[Gill-T]

Since the Great Lake basin is a historical wet area with a high water table, I wonder why they haven’t tried creating springs to add cool water. I see there is a technique to divert water back into the ground to cool then brought back up to be added back into the trib. This plus riparian shading with trees with large canopies that can be planted away from the edge of the stream might be the only answer. Silly to stock a species that isn’t going to make it just so we can say we tried. Agreed, stop with the money wasting half-assed approach. 

[GAMBLER]

29 minutes ago, Gill-T said:

Since the Great Lake basin is a historical wet area with a high water table, I wonder why they haven’t tried creating springs to add cool water. I see there is a technique to divert water back into the ground to cool then brought back up to be added back into the trib. This plus riparian shading with trees with large canopies that can be planted away from the edge of the stream might be the only answer. Silly to stock a species that isn’t going to make it just so we can say we tried. Agreed, stop with the money wasting half-assed approach. 

Wasn't it Einstein that defined insanity as "doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results".  Kind of rings true with the Atlantic program.  

[HB2]

I grew up playing , swimming , fishing , hunting , trapping in Sandy creek . A short walk from my house . I live a stones throw from the head waters now. Run through  my brother's property  

When DEC asked to put pens at my cottage of course I said yes . Put some of my own materials in them to . Put a lot of work into it . So when I hear one of those 70s cliche woke DEI indoctrination , " if you aren't part of the solution , you are part of the problem " in a pompous , elitist way , it kind of grinds my gears . 

 

This whole thing was drawn up, probably from pressure from the fly community  ( no disrespect meant ) by higher ups that thought ," well if you do this it will work " . Or from my point of view , " it looks good on paper " .I was all good with it ,really hoped it worked . I know the fly guys wanted it .it would have been nice . 

 

So what is the problem now ? As I see it those in charge are not paying attention to the science they always tout . Sandy runs hot  in summer Why ? Because it's supposed to run hot . It always has and always will . 

 

If Fed funds are available , build a new hatchery . More trout , maybe some walleye . Money better spent . How much money do we throw at this ? And find out it still doesn't work.

 

Exactly Brian about crazy  , someone  on here  posted  it but doesn't maybe understand  the parallel.   

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 05:44 PM by HB2

[LongLine]

The fishery on Lake Ontario is very good. Some years fishermen are highly successful and others not as successful, but it's still very good fishing. I've read someplace that it's the #5 top fishing place in the country. 

 

Sturgeon introduced in 2003, are showing good results but are still sparse and highly protected. (No success without Genny pollution reduction efforts.) Lake Trout, first stocked in 1973, would totally crash without continued Lamprey control. (Laker Habitat restoration on the way.)  This is 2026! 

 

Steelhead involved different strains, creel limit changes, etc. Steelhead have been stocked since 1878 and some guys claim they're still scarce, even though they come from the SR. Browns seemed to be going great but recently underwent genetic mixing to reduce domestication. (Wonder why we required getting lures farther away from boats?)  Even invasives (mussels, gobies, fleas etc), with perfect habitat conditions took a few years to become established. (Eradication will require many years, with Mother Nature's help.)

 

To believe Instant gratification with the fishery is possible is a position held only by those who don't know fishery. Look at that video and listen to how current stocking differs from what the Canadians did. Not perfect, but much better results than what our neighbors accomplished. 

 

Don't know if it was true but they say, "Edison found 2,000 ways how NOT to make a light bulb."  Some enjoyed living in the dark. When Wilmont (Canadian Hatchery fame) 1st introduced hatchery raised salmon, many people argued that it would never work and the only way to produce salmon was to keep poachers away from stream breeding grounds. 

re:  https://www.afs-oc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/AEHM223p305-315Dymond.pdf

I'm glad the nay-sayers were proven wrong.

 

Fishing at all places along the 712-mile southern shore is really good on the lake all year as Kings, Cohoes, Steelhead, Browns and Lakers are available with program changes. But that fishery requires constant monitoring and solving issues.  (VHS, Thiamine, etc.) It often/frequently requires an 18-35 ft boat to go offshore with piloting skills and a keen eye on the sky.

 

Trib fishing is also very good in the fall, evident by the in/out of state crowds.  They may even run into a King, Coho, or Laker immediately after ice-out.  Other than those times, they have Browns with occasional Rainbows and panfish. (Although reports of Atlantics on the SR are increasing.)  Can Lake-O move up on the top fishing place list with even more specie and availability overall? Maybe guides and charters don't want more business opportunity?

 

Federal Habitat Restoration funds are available.  Restoration projects have and are working in other areas. At a 2.6 to 1 ratio, "Lake guys" aren't going to lose anything.

 

For anyone wanting to live in the past...then fine...Let's go back a little further to when tons of Atlantics were speared by fishermen. When Seth Green perfected his rig? (re above link)

 

I'm a "Lake Guy" and not a "lip-ripper" or "snagger" but even I might try losing some lures in a tree or two. 

___________

GLFC, USF&WS, OMNR&F, USGS sponsor Great Lakes Restoration. NYSDEC asks for fishermen input. Without NYSDEC we wouldn't have the lake fishery we have.  They've done tremendous work.

 

Fish you refer to come from state Hatcheries which your "favorite governor" recently authorized $70 million to rebuild and improve. (more reason to bad mouth Hochul?) The fish we're talking are Federal fish. 

 

Read: "Federal H-A-B-I-T-A-T restoration" funds are available.  

 

Sandy is warm now but didn't used to be.  Late 19th century it was explicitly a salmon stream. (Refer to above link. specifically listed on pg 309). Residents, farmers, etc. (no disrespect intended) screwed it up pretty good.  When did you get sewers? When was phosphate fertilizer outlawed? When was the last tree planted along the banks? 

 

Listen to previous posted Video and see that stocking the headwater doesn't work. Thanx for the effort/try. You helped eliminate one method/strategy. 

 

You reported catching a couple Atlantics up stream Sandy. Were you Bullsh[[ing us? 

___________________

 

please re-read the entire post before cherry picking 

 

 

 

 

[HB2]

Stocked a bunch of Atlantic's a few years 

 

Dismal returns consistently 

 

Project is a failure 

 

Scrap it , cut losses 

 

Reallocate money and resources  to proven or next endeavor . 

 

Pretty simple

 

 

Next .....

 

 

That's how it's done