Sandy as a natural spawning creek?

[HB2]

Maybe a good approach would be to take Irondequoit and put all the efforts into that . That stream is probably the most suitable for this. 

And then see what happens after a few years . If it's going to succeed , that more than likely the best chance for it . 

[GAMBLER]

19 hours ago, King Davy said:

Likely down from Huron. Huron has a fishable population of Atlantic salmon in the lake and certainly in the St Mary’s River. I fished the st Mary’s for several years and caught many wonderful fish and lost a very big salmon that still haunts me today depicted in my first book in the chapter titled “The Haunting”.

 

I’ve seen pink salmon on the Catt that obviously came down from Huron. 

Last summer or the summer before there was a big influx of Pinks caught on Erie.  Pete Alex caught a bunch throughout the season.  He even had multiple fish in a couple of trips.  Cool to see.  I saw a photo of a pink from the Salmon River last fall too. 

[LongLine]

No record of Pinks ever intentionally stocked in Gr Lakes. CNDs wanted to stock them in Hudson Bay back in 1955, so got eggs from out west.  They didn't survive at hatchery.  Hatchery disposed of few surviving hatchlings/fingerlings down the "toilet" which led to Current River and Lake Superior. In '71, (8 generations later) some were caught in Huron and tribs in Huron have reported catches since.  In '85 NYS record Pink caught in Erie. (40 years later a "big" one caught on the SR)

. 

https://northernwilds.com/pink-salmon-an-improbable-tale-in-lake-superior/

 

https://www.outdoorlife.com/fishing/new-york-pink-salmon-record-rescinded/

 

Interesting facts:
- Only male Pinks develop "hump" at spawning time.
- Pinks very prolific.
- Pinks hard to differentiate from young Cohos (similar situation AS from Browns)
- Greatly expanded Pink populations cited as detrimental to King populations Vancouver to Alaska.
- Often advised never to "flush" aquarium fish.

 

Questions:
-  What are the odds that guy caught the only Pink in Lake Ontario? 
-  Pink caught on SR had "hump." If Nat Repro occurs on SR, has Mother Nature cross bred some with Kings?   

****

Back to Spawning areas:  Why not put the Sandy AS allotment in a small nearshore fish farm off Sandy?  Release after 6-9 months and let them determine where they want to go? Srvival instinct pretty strong. They'll enter the creek or stay in lake until spawning or stray a few miles to find successful habitat. E-W.  I.E. I-bay or Oak. If they enter the creek, they'd be available for "trib guys" (spawn or not) similar to the historical stocking of Powder Mill. (.E. DEC stocked a week before opening trout season & and crowds appeared. (Did they only stock spawners?)

 

NOTE: Hatchings & fingerlings require time in creek.  These would be yearlings plus 6-9 months and wouldn't necessarily require resident time for growth. 

 

 

[GAMBLER]

52 minutes ago, LongLine said:

No record of Pinks ever intentionally stocked in Gr Lakes. CNDs wanted to stock them in Hudson Bay back in 1955, so got eggs from out west.  They didn't survive at hatchery.  Hatchery disposed of few surviving hatchlings/fingerlings down the "toilet" which led to Current River and Lake Superior. In '71, (8 generations later) some were caught in Huron and tribs in Huron have reported catches since.  In '85 NYS record Pink caught in Erie. (40 years later a "big" one caught on the SR)

. 

https://northernwilds.com/pink-salmon-an-improbable-tale-in-lake-superior/

 

https://www.outdoorlife.com/fishing/new-york-pink-salmon-record-rescinded/

 

Interesting facts:
- Only male Pinks develop "hump" at spawning time.
- Pinks very prolific.
- Pinks hard to differentiate from young Cohos (similar situation AS from Browns)
- Greatly expanded Pink populations cited as detrimental to King populations Vancouver to Alaska.
- Often advised never to "flush" aquarium fish.

 

Questions:
-  What are the odds that guy caught the only Pink in Lake Ontario? 
-  Pink caught on SR had "hump." If Nat Repro occurs on SR, has Mother Nature cross bred some with Kings?   

****

Back to Spawning areas:  Why not put the Sandy AS allotment in a small nearshore fish farm off Sandy?  Release after 6-9 months and let them determine where they want to go? Srvival instinct pretty strong. They'll enter the creek or stay in lake until spawning or stray a few miles to find successful habitat. E-W.  I.E. I-bay or Oak. If they enter the creek, they'd be available for "trib guys" (spawn or not) similar to the historical stocking of Powder Mill. (.E. DEC stocked a week before opening trout season & and crowds appeared. (Did they only stock spawners?)

 

NOTE: Hatchings & fingerlings require time in creek.  These would be yearlings plus 6-9 months and wouldn't necessarily require resident time for growth. 

 

 

To raise Atlantics by dumping them in a pen in the lake only to release them to go wherever they want, isn't a good restoration strategy.  What would they eat?  How would you feed them?   

[GAMBLER]

If Irondequoit Creek is a possible trib for Atlantic natural reproduction, why can't the DEC get Atlantic eggs and contract out the PowderMill Hatchery to raise the Atlantics.  This would give the Atlantics a better chance of imprinting on the creek.  This would increase the number of fish returning to a more fertile water.  

[LongLine]

3 hours ago, GAMBLER said:

To raise Atlantics by dumping them in a pen in the lake only to release them to go wherever they want, isn't a good restoration strategy.  What would they eat?  How would you feed them?   

"Google" Fish farms to see how they work.  "Google" Fish farm incidents/escapes to see effects on local tribs.

[Gator]

Just as an interesting aside, anyone who's fished Alaska recently appreciates that the over stocking and abundance of pinks has led to their spawning runs occurring every year rather than every two years and has negatively impacted returns on most other salmonids. Driven by money, of course.

 

They were so prolific that it was almost impossible to drift fish without hooking them. They'd be finning in the current break caused by your legs as you were wading. What a nuisance. 

[LongLine]

3 hours ago, GAMBLER said:

If Irondequoit Creek is a possible trib for Atlantic natural reproduction, why can't the DEC get Atlantic eggs and contract out the PowderMill Hatchery to raise the Atlantics.  This would give the Atlantics a better chance of imprinting on the creek.  This would increase the number of fish returning to a more fertile water.  

Water? Facilities?  Someone complained about "damaged" fish from raceways? 

 

I didn't pick Sandy and I'm sure the "powers that be" didn't pick it just to pi$$ off a few fishermen.

[LongLine]

I agree with Gator on that one.  Exactly what I've heard.  You don't want Pinks! 

[GAMBLER]

4 hours ago, LongLine said:

Water? Facilities?  Someone complained about "damaged" fish from raceways? 

 

I didn't pick Sandy and I'm sure the "powers that be" didn't pick it just to pi$$ off a few fishermen.

Powder mill has water.  It has raceways.  Plenty of room to raise the small amount of Atlantics to cover the stocking on the creek.  It would take contracting out the hatchery and possibly staffing it.  
Raising them in the lake, they will not imprint on a trib.  If they don’t imprint on a fertile trib, they could spawn anywhere.  Chances of picking a trib that would support natural reproduction would be slim.  That would be even worse than stocking them in the Oak and Sandy.  

[HB2]

A fish farm off shore of Sandy ? 

 

Got to say LL 

 

 

You come up with some Dandys . 

 

[LongLine]

Brian - Powder Mill (Riedman Foundation) is very small and raises 30,000 fish annually in all stages of life.  As said before target for the lake is 200,000.AS (tgt for sandy 50K). You said "damaged fish" come from being raised in concrete raceways and better stock has to be used. No raceway "damage" in a farm. 

 

Some have said they won't grow in Sandy due to creek conditions, citing warmth, mud bottom, lack of flow, run-off, stocking survival, etc. I.E. Some say "They'll just die off." 

 

My proposal would be to place a small farm nearshore, just to NE of Sandy. (Guessing 20-30FOW) Given the south shore (nearshore) current is west to east, Sandy water flows that direction.

 

This would solve warmth and flow issues. Run-off would be diluted, yet still a component of Sandy water. Stocking survival would increase as fish protected and grow larger thus more capable of withstanding whatever "harsh" conditions fish encounter. I.E. Yearling vs Yearling+3/4.  

 

Upon release, they may enter creek (for "trib guys" to catch them as at Powder Mill with March stockings) or they may head to more suitable "grounds" for reproduction. (Hence no need to explore for better spawning grounds) Win-win situation either/both ways. As some fishermen don't agree with and resist the fisheries people, why not let the fish decide? (Bottom-up vs top-down problem solving?)

 

"Google" Atlantic Fish Farms and you'll see sizes range from10s of thousands to millions. The size Sandy target approximately 30 ft diameter.  Interesting how they feed them too.  I.E. Automatic feeders, like hatcheries, with newer pond feeders being solar powered.  

 

Look at the 2 links below for info on Fish farms. Basically just bigger net-pens.

_____________ .    

HB - Thanx for the compliment. (fish farms are not my idea...this application yes)

 

Net pens were pretty "dandy" back in '97-98 when they were 1st attempted here and then took a few years to confirm effectiveness.  Net pens tried here after 20+ years of experience with lake stocking.  They came from West coast who initiated it in late 60's. Fish farms were invented in Norway (North Sea) well over 100 yrs ago and are now successful worldwide. 

 

US fish farms are under NOAA and USF&W auspicies. 

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/species/atlantic-salmon/aquaculture

 

From the CDN side: 

https://atlanticfishfarmers.com/fish-farm-facts/how-farmed-salmon-grow/

 

https://atlanticfishfarmers.com/new-research-points-to-a-better-way-to-restore-wild-salmon/

 

[HB2]

Are we really going to invest a ton of time and resources into something that has been tried before and didn't really work in Sandy creek ? 

 

At some point doesn't common sense take over ? Put a fish farm offshore to have 8 to 15 ft waves , which has happened and they wind up in the yacht club parking lot ?  

 

Do you really believe what you are suggesting here or are you just cat fishing us ? A man of your education should be able to see the science and realize what you suggest has a extremely low chance of succeeding without major , major ecosystem changes . 

[rolmops]

Please do not mention fish farming and Lake Ontario in the same phrase again. Somebody may read this and give it a commercial try. If God forbid he succeeds, we will end up with fish farm pollution and tons of antibiotics in the water. The same thing happened off the Canadian west coast and it caused so much trouble and natural fish die off that both the provincial government and the businesses fought very hard to keep it a secret.