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Everything posted by Lucky13

  1. While I am almost always at the RIT meetings, it is fishing season for some of us, so I attended in Pulaski, where there was a pretty good turnout, although the room would have certainly held more. I spoke with Dr. Weidel before the meeting, and he kind of summed things up by pointing out that we are using possibly the most finely tuned measurement system going for this kind of work, and then we all have to deal (over and over) with the disappointment of what it tells us. If these guys were just scientists, they would not care, as it is just the job of science to observe and measure change , regardless of its direction, but they appear to be as frustrated by what is coming back in the data as everyone else. If you missed the meeting, and have any interest at all in the fishery, lake or tributary (and a lot of guys at the motel had no interest in going because "the bait doesn't affect me, I only fish in the river") take the time to view the webinar, or watch the DEC website, as the power point slides might show up there, and give some careful thought to what all this data adds up to, both if the managers ignore it, as some are urging, and what they might have to do to restore balance to the system (to the minimal extent that the managers have control.)
  2. That is assuming that the "drain" is capable of discharging at the same volume and rate that the " faucet" allows water in at. If the outlet does not have capacity to handle what is coming in, even with the drain wide open, the bathtub overflows all over the floor. This is also complicated by the people who live along the Saint Lawrence, and the people who live just downstream of the river, in Montreal and further downstream. When you build your house in the flood plain, once in a while you are going to have the floodplain on your house.
  3. I don't need google to find the NYSDEC reports for Lake Ontario. I thought I would highlight that section of the boat report, because so few on this site appear to really read anything. Smaller numbers of harvested steel due to better king fishing was highlighted in the report, maybe you didn't read that? It is boat anglers who have indicated that steel do not release well in the heated surface waters in summer, tributary anglers are fishing vastly different thermal conditions, except maybe if they find that summer run Atlantic that you will apparently burn gas for the full 6 hours going after. It was Yankee Troller that suggested that no captain will keep " culling" if they can get three and head for shore. And none of you guys want the Lake Trout, or so I keep reading. " Unless the Bait rebounds." Well, at least one angler out there supports and believes the science even when it is not reporting the story you want to hear. Maybe you can talk to Captain Perlioni about that. And glad to hear that you scrupulously follow the regulations, but according to the bait data, nearly 10% of the creeled fish were undersized.
  4. From the 2018 NYSDEC report to the GLFC: ( my bold) Rainbow Trout Catch and Harvest Rainbow trout was the third most commonly caught and harvested salmonine in 2018 and represented 7.1% and 5.9% of the total trout and salmon catch and harvest, respectively (Tables 1, A14a; Figure 10). Estimates of total catch and harvest peaked in 1989, declined to the lowest levels in the early 2000s, then improved from about 2008-2014. More recently, estimated catch was similar to levels observed in the early 2000s. Rainbow trout catch in 2018 was an estimated 18,047 (+32.3%) fish, 46.1% lower than the longterm average. Anglers harvested 8,411 (+39.3%) rainbow trout (46.6% of those caught), 60.3% lower than the long-term average. Reduced catch of rainbow trout in recent years (i.e., 2015-2016; Figure 10) was partly attributed to reduced population size after a prolonged rainbow trout mortality event related to thiamine deficiency in the Salmon River, NY from fall 2014 and into winter 2015 (Lantry and Eckert 2018). Another indication of a reduced population was the size of the run at the Ganaraska River. The rainbow trout run at the Ganaraska Fishway in Ontario has traditionally been used as an index of abundance, which was markedly lower 2014-2016. During spring of 2017 and 2018, however, the rainbow trout run at the Ganaraska River Fishway increased compared to the 2016 run size indicating a higher population level in 2017 and 2018 (OMNRF 2019). Rainbow trout catch in New York waters of Lake Ontario also increased in 2017; however, catch declined again in 2018 to levels lower than observed in 2015-2016. There have been no substantial reports of die-offs since 2014-2015, so reasons for the reduced catch in 2018 are unclear. Stocking of yearling rainbow trout in 2015 was 23% below target which may have impacted population abundance since those fish were age-4 in 2018 and fish from that age class represented 29% of the age structure on average from 20092018 (35% in 2018; Prindle and Bishop 2019). It is also possible that rainbow trout were targeted less by anglers in 2018 due to record high catch rates for Chinook salmon. Anglers will often target rainbow trout by going further offshore during periods when Chinook salmon are not available. In 2018, Chinook fishing was exceptional in May through September (Figure 7c). For 33 consecutive years (1986-2018), most rainbow trout were caught and harvested in the west area (Lantry and Eckert 2011; Table 14a). In 2018, 40.9%% of all rainbow trout caught and 35.4% of those harvested were from the west area, which is considerably lower than average (62.2% and 64.6% respectively). The majority of rainbow trout catch (43.2%) and harvest (49.4%) occurred during August (Table A14a). There have been significant downward trends (p<0.001) in the April/May percent contribution to harvest with April/May 2018 ranking 32nd out of 34 years; along with corresponding significant increases in percent contribution to total harvest in the other months, especially June/July (p=0.0235). Fishing Quality For seven consecutive years, from 2008 to 2014, anglers experienced the highest rainbow trout catch per boat trip in the history of the survey (average=0.77 fish per boat trip; Table A14b; Figure 10). The 2015 and 2016 catch rates (0.38 and 0.43 fish per boat trip), however, declined to the lowest since 2006. After catch rates temporarily improved in 2017, they dropped again in 2018 to 0.38 fish per boat trip which is 17.5% below the long-term average. In 2018, charter boats caught 39.3% of all rainbow trout caught by trout and salmon boats. Charter boats caught 0.61 rainbow trout per boat trip, 45.3% lower than the long-term average (Figure 10b). Charter boat catch per angler hour (0.02 fish per hour) was also well below (-40.4%) the long-term average. Anglers fishing onboard noncharter boats caught 0.30 rainbow trout per boat trip and 0.02 fish per angler hour (Table A14b). The 2018 lake-wide harvest rates among charter and non-charter boats followed similar trends as catch rates and were also well below long-term averages (Figure 10b, Table A14b). Rainbow trout monthly and geographical catch rate and harvest rate trends for most years showed monthly rates highest during the summer in the western end of the lake and lowest in the east area (Lantry and Eckert 2011; Table A14b; Figures 10c, 10d, A5). As compared to the long-term average, the 2018 rainbow trout monthly catch rates were below average in most months (April [-76.4%], May [-57.9%], June [-26.7%], July [-12.2%], September [-25.1%]) except in August when it was near average (+2.4%; Table A14b). Catch rate per boat trip in 2018 was especially low (-46.6%) in the west area. Seasonal catch rates in the west region are typically about 5 times higher than the average of the other three regions in a year but this was not the case in 2018. Lower rainbow trout catch rates in the west region may be partly due to exceptional Chinook fishing throughout the season which led to reduced targeting of rainbow trout during summer in the west. Catch rates per boat trip in the west/central area were 36.9% above average, near average in the east/central (0.3%) and 59.6% above average in east (Figure 10d). Biological Data Biological data analysis presented here includes fish processed during April 15 - September 30 (length: 1985-2018, weight: 1988-2018). Scale samples were collected from rainbow trout processed for biological data each year 1996-2018; however, they are not yet aged. Lengths of rainbow trout sampled from the open lake boat fishery were dependent on several factors including age and strain composition, stage of maturity, and fishing regulations (i.e. minimum size limit). The 2018 open lake season was the 12th year affected by the increased minimum harvestable length of rainbow trout from 15 in to 21 in. The average percent contribution of fish <21.0 in for the twelve years since the regulation (2007-2018) was 9.9%, and significantly lower than the twelve years prior to the increased minimum size limit (1996-2006) when 19.7% of rainbow trout processed were <21.0 inches (t=4.23; df=15, p-value = 0.0004). During 2018, 9.6% of harvested rainbow trout were shorter than the legal 21 in minimum harvestable size. Weight data were collected each year from 19882018 and rainbow trout condition was calculated as predicted weights of standard-length fish (Table A15). For each standard-length group (18- to 32in lengths, by 2-in size increments), predicted weights were variable but showed increasing trends from 1988 to about 2002-2003 (trends similar to those observed with Chinook and coho salmon), then generally declined to record and near record lows by 2006. Since then condition of rainbow trout has varied at a lower level resulting in significant downward trends among all 30 years. In 2018, predicted weight (condition) was below average for all inch groups evaluated relative to long-term averages. Relative to more recent years, condition of smaller fish (18-in, 20-in, and 22- in groups) ranged from +4.9% to 1.3% above previous ten-year averages. Condition of the larger fish (i.e., 24-, 26-, 28-, 30-, 32 in groups) were near or below previous ten-year averages (range: -0.3% to -5.4%). The 28 to 32-inch predicted weights in 2018 were the 3rd lowest in the time series for all groups. Below average temperatures and reduced preyfish population could have contributed to reduced growth and condition of rainbow trout. " So if it is not possible to release rainbows in July and August when most are being caught on the west end, what are you guys doing with the undersized fish? Aside from the questionable practice of using rigs that you know are going to kill fish that are not "desirable," either undersized or over limit fish, are you not putting a heavy hit on future populations of salmon and trout if the junk lines result in so much mortality. Maybe the solution is a three silvers any size, no release allowed and the rods get retired as soon as the limit is in the box. no "skipper" food for gulls then.
  5. If it were not for DEC, you would not have " your" fishery. Left alone, Mother Natrure would still be providing a big pond full of alewife that ended up on the beaches every summer, maybe a few of the " native" lake trout would have come back, but all the rest of what you enjoy out there is there due to the efforts of DEC.
  6. So I may not be the greatest fisherman out there, but I have not seen a 10 fish day in over 20 years on the tribs. The days of the huge numbers went with the arrival of the remainder of the country's anglers, and are long gone, except in go pro vids, or as reported for large parties, or if you happen to be in a spot where there is a big bunch moving through, once in a great while. Or you happen to have off the one day the Genesee goes down in two months of winter. 12 Silvers a day for parties of four 7 days a week (and not counting double trip days when you got the first group off the boat early and were able to get a second one out) is 84 silvers a week, plus however many were "rejected" because they were not desirable for the " legal limit" is still a lot of fish, if you are full time. And reading Bob's rant, he's implying at least some of you are not all that sporting, honest, and efficient, at least if there is money involved. Maybe its time to reconsider derbies and their impact on the fishery! And I read the same "16 for 35" reports that KD reports all the time, rec anglers who pay the big bux for the gas and boat and plan a full day on the lake are generally out there playing for as long as they have time and weather, not boxing and heading home after an hour because they caught the limit.
  7. If you read, and you should, the regulations for the FL, you will find that stream name prominently displayed. No spot burn there.
  8. I was also there Thursday, spoke with Betsy, who said they were on track with ~1 million eggs, needing about 4 million. I got there just after they finished, and my hat is off to the crew, bolstered by a class from Morrisville, for their meticulous work in cleaning the area when they are done. If restaurants spent this much care in cleaning there would never be a food poisoning case. It stopped raining so I headed to a store to get gloves and then go fish, but by the time I got the gloves it was pouring again, and I heard that Steve Lapan was at the hatchery so I wnt baxck to seem if I could say hello. No Stev, but Fred, the camo bandana wearing worker in WC's pix, an old friend, came upstairs and we spoke for quite a while. They will likely be taking King eggs for another week, then cohos. They do not sound concerned about egg numbers, but he says they are getting a lot more males than females. He asays they think they have enough kings with what is in the chute, holding pens (they are only using two) and the ladder. The brook is mainly filled with cohoes with some kings dominating the entrance to the ladder. What I saw of the Publ;ic river was pretty devoid of fish. DSR was mixed, there were a lot of ki9ngs spawnijg in the gravel at the little black, but a olot of other spots are slim pickings. There was a push Wednesday PM in the heavy rain, but it didn't amount to a huge run and by Friday Town was elbow to elbow with new PA and NJ arrivals, likely another circus today! Walked 1.5 miles of lower DSR yesterday and saw one 15 lb BRIGHT hen king caught, a few other fish push through shallow spots but no big run. Lots of chatter up there about poor returns this year, those west end fish are probably still in transit!
  9. http://www.fishcreeksalmon.org/history-atlantic-salmon.htm Likely some do, as they are having problems with Coho salmon on the Gaspe Peninsula, and they had to originate in New York, but the scientists are convinced that most stayed in LO. Similarly, while some Cayuga salmon likely went out to LO, most stayed in Cayuga, Seneca, Oneida or Onandaga Lakes.
  10. Browns are not a very common find in the SR, and they are there mainly in fall. Chrome all winter, down low if you can afford it from now until the water gets cold, then upriver all winter as others have said. If you really want browns, Oak Orchard, or the Oz used to be very good, haven't really checked it in a few years.
  11. I did not "insinuate" anything, I made a simple statement. Yes, age two fish run, but in natural systems, the majority of spawners are age three fish. Some one year old fish run also, totally immature jacks. Because the age and condition report is based on returns to the hatchery, three year fish, which are the " targets" in the gauntlet of 13 miles below the hatchery, show in lower numbers, two year fish dominate. A lot of the ~20 lb three year olds end up on stringers, while the 12-15 lb two yr olds are less desirable to the P-Town visitors. Fish went into Sandy on 4/21/2017, and were stocked on 4/27/17, 6 days . My main point with that was you and others were working with 2016 as the years of no pens, you were off by a year. Word from my Friends in P-Town is that the run there is pretty much a dud, too. Maybe it is early, but Columbus Day weekend is upcoming.
  12. Not to rain on anyone's parade or throw water on anyone's fiery theories, but a check of the annual LO annual reports will conform that in 2016, the only pen site that was direct stocked was Sandy Creek, as no pen was available. Oak Orchard fish were delivered on 4/12/16, stocked on 5/10/16; 18 Mile on 4/13/16, stocked 5/3/16; Genny 4/15/16, stocked 5/5/16; Sodus 4/18/16, stocked 5/11/16; Little Sodus4/19/16, stocked 5/14/16; Oswego 4/20/16, stocked 5/12/2016; and Niagara 4/27/16. stocked 5/17/16. In 2017, the Genesee River, Oak Orchard and the Niagara were direct stocked. The other pen sites received their fish. Those fish will have three years in the lake NEXT fall, or please correct my math. While my reading on homing mechanisms in anadromous fish indicate that way more is NOT known about this phenomenon than is known, I fail to understand why fish that are raised in Beaver Dam brook, a relatively small tributary of the Salmon River, home in so heavily, but fish that were raised in Spring Creek, a small tributary to a tributary of the Genesee did not "en masse" home in on the Genesee, as everyone says they are doing on the Salmon River. These fish in their native range could find the Clearwater River in Idaho in the outflow of the Columbia River, why didn't they imprint strongly on Caledonia, but instead distributed themselves to all the western tributaries. Of course, fish that recruited from the natural component in the SR would imprint on the river and return there, less the amount that strays, maybe a natural mechanism that insures that a catastrophe in one river would not totally eliminate fish from the river. Reports from the Salmon River are not indicative of a massive run there, no " hundred rooster tails in the ripples below Joss all day" reports from DSR, and many of the fishers I hear from reporting average to less than average numbers of fish up river. Lots of fish in the hatchery, but when I was there last year at this time it was mostly cohos, the observer I heard from could not say for sure this year. Maybe my doctor will let me fish this week, and I'll see first hand. There were 1,882,500 kings stocked in 2016, no reduction. They are not in the west end, they are not in the Salmon in HUGE numbers, so where are they? When I first said it, I was half joking, but maybe they "died of gluttony", if the alewife they have been feeding on were low condition (as the trawl data indicates), loaded with thiaminase, and they overfed on them, maybe a lot of them have recently "hit the wall" as happened to the Steelhead a few years back. We'll have to see what the next couple of weeks bring. On a personal note, in my service to the GLFC citizen's panel, I have attended every face to face meeting, and been on every call (one when they were double session calls) with the exception of the last one, when I was with my wife in the emergency room in Utica, and they wouldn't let me use my cell phone.
  13. That is Cedar Springs, it is tiny and ancient. DEC does not talk a lot about what they do there, my understanding is that it is used as a research facility, and they may do some rainbow work as the water is not whirling disease contaminated like Spring Creek. The operative word is tiny. And to get a sense of the volume of water, drive down Cedar Springs Road (Cedars Avenue on Google Maps) to where the stream crosses the road, right before you get to the gates. While you, can't step across Mill Creek there, it's not much bigger. "No need to buy Powder Mill. I brought up at the state of the lake meeting years ago about seeing if the owners of the hatchery would contract out raising our kings or leasing out the space to do it. It was an instant No." The County of Monroe still owns the Powder Mills Hatchery, the Reidman Foundation just operates it. The County was still kicking in 25 K/ yr to operating costs last time I looked at a County Budget. Again, water source might be a major issue there as the volume from the springs is low, and quality has declined somewhat since all the houses got built up and over the ridge. "It may have been built in the 30's, but was there not 800,000 recently put into it for an Atlantic program?" https://www.syracuse.com/outdoors/2012/01/tunison_lab.html According to the Outdoor column in Syracuse (maybe the only one left in WNY?) it was 800 k for a new UV treatment facility which is being used in the AS and cisco and bloater projects. It kills all pathogens in the water. Maybe this is a new and useful technology that has application in other areas of the fishery, often a side benefit of science. And as it was paid for with a Great Lakes Initiative grant, all the cowboys in Wyoming that we are usually subsidizing from here in NYS kicked in their share, too.
  14. Guilty Hooker, the Tunison Lab was built in 1930, not recently, and has supported Federal Fisheries research throughout the Great Lakes, not just AS in NYS. It is not directly affiliated with Cornell, and is located outside of Cortland, New York. I toured it about 20 years ago with the new USGS section Chief at the time. It is no bigger than the Powder Mill Fis Hatchery, has inside raising trays and a few outdoor raceways. It is likely that a lot of that capacity is devoted to raising bloaters, another "two basket" project that the Feds (LO is an international waterbody, you might remember, so the feds have skin in the game, too) have a big hand in. Maybe you can all buy the Powder Mills Hatchery.
  15. Rick, please, more specifics on this Federal Hatchery, where is it, does it have a name?
  16. I have 30 years of experience working in Environmental Science, have worked with such illustrious scientists as Drs Ed Mills and Lars Rudstam from the Cornell Biological Research Facility on Oneida Lake, Fred Luckey from Region II USEPA, Dave MacNeill and his colleagues at Sea Grant, and Dr. Brian Weidel of the USGS (some of you deal with his "anonymous" self on here, and there are only a few self promoting posters here who use their own name, so I am hardly alone in having an " alias") and many of the DEC Regions 6, 7 and 8 staffs, among many others. I serve with you on the Great Lake Fishery Commission citizen advisory panel. As to instigating, I have not gone to the major outdoor print outlet in New York and publicly lambasted the mangers of this fishery based on my Television watching experience. How many screenshots do you have to take to get one big bait pod, Vince? It s an interesting hypothesis that raising fish in one of the more unique water sources in New York, a limestone spring with a very unique chemistry, would imprint fish to rivers 80 to 100 miles away that have no resemblance to Spring Brook in their water chemistry. Even comparing the flow in Spring Brook to the total flow in the Genesee River, it is amazing that that Spring Brook signature does not get "swamped" with all the other chemical influences for a big old muddy flow like the Genny. Perhaps you can put some kind of science together to prove your contentions, something a little more rigorous than " back in the day it was shoulder to shoulder (may I remind you that all aspects of the fishery are down somewhat, people seem to get bored with fishing after a few years) and a couple of cherry picked graph shots. BTW, all your noise about how much bait there is and there aren't enough salmon could be viewed as " the sky is falling" talk by out of staters, so you may be shooting yourself in the foot down the road regardless of whether the cuts are noticeable, and the bait bounces back, or not.
  17. The Genesee has only dropped below 66°F last night and has only been below 67° three other nights. Maybe these fish only respond to temperature when they are offshore? Bill Abraham, retired Region 8 Fisheries Manager, always said the west end runs late because of warm source waters, what he called the thermal barriers, no deep shady woods like on the Tug Hill to cool the rivers down and keep them colder. But what would he know, he was just a university trained fisheries scientist! While there are fair numbers of fish in the Salmon River and the Oz, they are not yet experiencing the massive runs they have seen in past years, so there may be another big push to come. Or if Vince is right about the massive schools of bait he finds every time he turns on the graph, maybe the salmon all died of gluttony!
  18. EVERYTHING dies anyway! That is no justification for anything!
  19. DItto the above. I have an Old Town Sport boat, a square sterner built on Rangely boat lines, more like a guide boat but still a narrower beam than a small motor boat. It was rated for a five when they came out, but Old Town dropped the rating to three. And I have a 16' Raddison, not square, but has a side mount for a motor, it is also rated for three. The OT screams with a three on it, but the first time I used it, used to the wider beam, I almost "set a rod down" into the lake. If you are not hauling it around and having to get it back in off the road, and you are leaving it at your cottage, get the 14 footer and put your 9.9 on it, and if you still want a canoe, use it with paddles or oars, and take your wife for a nice ride once in a while.
  20. The urban areas of New York have storm sewers to get rid of then runoff during rainstorms. Storm sewers clog very rapidly with cInders or sand, not so much with soluble road salt. I will wager that anywhere you have been and sand was being used, the road side conveyance was a ditch. It is very expensive to use a Vactor or other equipment to remove the sand from the piped system, not so much to clean a ditch with a backhoe.
  21. I was replying to the Guilty Hooker... Oh, did I misspell that? I looked for a USGS gage that you could use to predict based on Temperature and flow, but there does not appear to be any flow monitoring by the feds on the river. I also checked the 18 Mile gage and the Kenyonville gages, but they don't monitor temperature at either.
  22. I seem to recall a time when if you didn't have four downriggers hanging off the back of your ship, you were a hopeless dinosaur. Those of us who still pulled copper or dragged lead core were anachronisms best relegated to those small lakes where irregularity of bottom made downriggers impractical. How many junk lines do you run now? The times keep changing, and the old comes back as "new". Suttons were not invented yesterday, and if you could get the little Millers you would be pulling them. And I believe there is a diagram of a peanut and "fly" pulled behind a flasher in Earl Holdren's book, there's a real "modern" idea! .
  23. One person's "saltiness" is another person's jocularity. Lighten up a little!
  24. Whatever happened to Alpena diamonds? I remember they used to start working when the browns went to smaller bait. Of course, the goby probably changed everything.
  25. Lower Niagara? Lower Salmon? Lower Genesee? Lower Credit? The mind reading installment course hasn't come in the mail yet. It's a big lake with lots rivers.
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