Jump to content

Recommended Posts

(ok, so it looks like I'm the only one who didn't get the message about the genny so here goes)

 

After a 1 month hiatus (just didn't get out)  Launched solo at the river at 5:30. 2nd trailer there.   Cloudy horizon with a decent SSE chop.  Headed out and to the left again. 

490662490_9-1-18a.thumb.JPG.728330f9c7131a644ecdd70b40e715c5.JPG

 

Stopped at 65 FOW for a look-see and was on top of a huge pod of bait so decided to put in there and work out a little.  Winds appeared to be moving the water temps around quite a bit. Water current sites showing some very fast currents lately. Probe said surface was 76F.  I had 47F down 56 so put one rigger there and the other at 46 stacked at 36.  

 

Ended up 3 Kings for 3.   A shaker and these two:

 

 1097223877_9-1-18b.thumb.JPG.b70d673352cd167076825dd4a286bf27.JPG

936914748_9-1-18c.thumb.JPG.9a715f3262084c68bed3c56b3d94ecd6.JPG

12 & 22.  Dark one was a real "porker." Blk & Slvr Spooks again. Short leads, trolling fast.  Not a flea in sight. 

 

A great morning to be out on the water.  Got quite warm around 9:30 so pulled them in.  Figured I'd beat the go-boat crowd & the rag boats which were just starting to come out.  Probably 10 trailers there.

 I went on a charter last weekend out in Seattle.  (report in picture section)  We don't realize just how  tremendous this fishery in Lake Ontario is and how good a job the NYSDEC and USGS are doing with Lady O.

 

Luck to all, there are bigger ones out there.

 

Tom B.

(LongLine)

 

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tom I agree on how good the fishery is but do you realize that I’m just a few years we could be in some real trouble. I Charter out of Bald Eagle by Oak and a lot of us have noticed how the 2 year old class of fish have had mature egos in them but are not sexually mature enough to spawn when some of the 3-4 year class have had none to very small immature eggs. This is all in part of the interbreeding of Salmon we have had for decades. If the DEC and Biologists don’t come up with a plan soon we could be in trouble down the road. If it wasn’t also for the Pen tearing projects I think we would be in a slump cause the natural reproduction of salmon is almost non existent from the Genesee to the west compared to 20 plus years ago. Don’t get me wrong the fishing has been phenomenal the past few seasons but it comes at a cost when we are now catching more 1-2 year old fish than 3-4 year olds. Who would think in this fishery that a 27# Salmon would be the talk of the marinas and only 3 Salmon over 30 for the fall LOC. Canada is seeing the same results as well and the north shore has always had the bigger Kings, they haven’t seen that many above 30# themselves. Just a thought about the fishery. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Sea-IV said:

This is all in part of the interbreeding of Salmon we have had for decades.

Please detail and provide documentation for this assertion.  Also, since west coast strains of Pacific salmon are in general specific to one river system, don't they all "interbreed"?

 

 "natural reproduction of salmon is almost non existent from the Genesee to the west compared to 20 plus years ago."

 

Again, please provide some documentation that there has ever been natural reproduction of Salmon on the south shore of the Lake.  NYSDEC has maintained for as long as I remember that the only significant source of natural fish on the US side of the lake is the Salmon River.  Please indicate where you get your information.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Lucky13 said:

Please detail and provide documentation for this assertion.  Also, since west coast strains of Pacific salmon are in general specific to one river system, don't they all "interbreed"?

 

 "natural reproduction of salmon is almost non existent from the Genesee to the west compared to 20 plus years ago."

 

Again, please provide some documentation that there has ever been natural reproduction of Salmon on the south shore of the Lake.  NYSDEC has maintained for as long as I remember that the only significant source of natural fish on the US side of the lake is the Salmon River.  Please indicate where you get your information.  

I can’t provide any documentation as it was a general conversation between a fellow advocate for Lake Ontario who had discussions with biologists from both sides of the lake just a week ago and when I brought to his attention about the 2 year old salmon having mature eggs and not being mature enough to spawn, he mentioned that this was the topic of there conversation. Yesterday we had a male that had no sperm in it what so ever, so yes there is an issue and Jerry Felluca can add to this conversation if he so chooses. As for the Genesee river it used to be a major source of reproduction for salmon and that was a fact. As for interbreeding yes you can say that even in nature it’s so but when your pulling eggs and sperm from the same class of fish year after year the genetics are gonna get screwed up. Why not Ship eggs from West coast Chinooks overnite and hatch those fish for pens. I am no expert by any means and base what I say as to what was told first hand from people involved in the system when concerns were raised by myself and other Captains. Do we not have a reason to not worry with certain facts at hand?

Edited by Sea-IV
Link to comment
Share on other sites

One of the most rediculous posts I have ever read on this site.  Your interbreeding theory is beyond wrong.  There have always been 2 year olds running the river and dying off when they should not be.  There are also 3 year olds that do not run the river and live to 4 possibly 5.  The only way this fishery dies is when and it is a matter of when we run out of bait.  Hopefully in none of our life times, however I think that depends on the winters we have.  Excuse me when we run out of bait or when the Asian carp show up.  Neither of these problems should show before we retire from fishing, but you never know.  To be concerned about interbreeding and natural reproduction on the south shore is rediculous.  This is a put and take fishery that is being sustained by our state and only our state.  I don’t want to believe it but I think the light weight tournament placing fish is either bad luck, a true lack of summer feeding on bait, or the absolute terrible, rough, choppy lake we saw during the fall loc.  That leaderboard changed pretty fast the last day or two with for once, favorable conditions.  The spring boards seemed perfectly normal to me. I truly don’t believe the fishery was any better this year than the last ten.  Personally I believe 10-15 years ago was possibly 5 times better fishing.  I think the studies, the numbers and the research are all wrong like usual.  The fishing has been fantastic every year, this year was no exception.  Next year we’ll have all east winds and the title will read “Lake Ontario collapse of 2019”  when it is strictly weather related.

 

Edited by shorelunch
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Like I said this was info passed along from a conversation we were having at the dock. It raised my concern and has stuck in my head, there wer efood changes made this year with all the pens along south shore to provide a bigger fingerling when released and the weight average did go up using that said food. Hopefully it works and provides healthier salmon. I am aware of the age classes that run and don’t. We were offshore this past weekend catching 3 year olds that probably won’t run and caught a bunch of 1-2 year old fish as well. As for the bait situation well with the trawls done early and late we shouldn’t have to worry any with all year classes being caught in healthy numbers. I will mention another concern brought up by anothe rcaotain was why would a mature 3 year old salmon be stuffed full of this years hatch of alewives no bigger than 1.5” and not have any other age class in its belly. Possible that that was the only bait available at that feeding time, I don’t know. For me learning the biology of the lake comes thru ambassadors of the lake. I surely do t want to see the mighty King dissolve from the lake. I have fished it from the late 80’s to present and plan on fishing for many many years. If I have nothing to be concerned then so be it. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It was noted well over 5 years ago that the salmon were spawning earlier in their life cycle and that the number of fish surviving to 4 yrs old was diminishing and that 5 yr old's were basically non-existent. (That was discussed in a state-of-the-lake meeting and annual report yrs ago)

 

The Genny was a good reproduction site, however that was 120 yrs ago or better.  Deforestation upriver has caused the bottom of the Genny to be silt, not gravel anymore.  It's also caused the river to be too darn warm most of the year.  There has been some natural repro observed in a couple of south shore tribs but it has not been significant.  Lack of spawning grounds has been a driver in the stocking program from the beginning.  Pen rearing has been a big help with that.

 

Don't look for any kings from out west.  Ain't going to happen.  The King stock in Seattle is really hurting.  They are very protected and have very short seasons. The limit on salmon is two per person and you have to report that you caught them. (I was just out there; on a charter and talked to a couple of captains)  The Sound is divided into zones and when the fisheries people see where the big schools are, they close that zone for Kings pretty fast. 

 

As for the message - That was tongue in cheek.  There have been two posts from the Rochester area in the last 5 weeks, yet quite a few boats out there on Saturday.  

 

.   

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thank you Long Line and Shore lunch for saving me a lot of typing.  Who appointed these “ ambassadors of the Lake”, Trump?  What degrees in Fisheries Science do they possess?  I have a lot of respect for Jerry and know that he studies all this in detail, but I’m going with past SOL meetings and Annual Reports, not scuttlebutt from the docks ( especially if it didn’t come from Jerry!).    And no fish come from anywhere else now due to the problems with diseases everywhere, even  if excess eggs were available.  As others have pointed out, it is the bait that is the issue, and what I’ve seen and heard about the bait data is that last year is not overwhelmingly good, just moderately acceptable.  So if you want to gamble with your fishery, now‘s the time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I’m confused on the bait issue.  I’d be the first one to tell them they are wrong.  One day there is too much bait and the next there is none.  I personally think there is much less bait then 10-15 years ago, but perhaps I’m fishing different areas.  I recall  pounding fish through bait ball after bait ball ten years ago and now it seems either you find it or you don’t. Back then you didn’t have to search it was everywhere.  The charters know better than the state on this issue, however I feel there Input may be bias because of their profession.  I’d love to know what the top 5 captains of the lake truely believe with the bait.  Vince is the first guy I would personally ask, next would be songin or vice versa, both excellent guys.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Charter Captains watch the bait on $1000 depth finders; the Scientists use long established transects at multiple locations around the lake, and they also get data on age and condition of the bait.  The principle behind the transect method is that you get a representative sampling of what is out there, and you are pooling a large amount of sampling.  When the transects were producing much larger numbers 20+ yeas ago, there was  a lot more bait out there.  I have not heard " there is too much bait" in a long time, please quote the scientist(s) who said that.  To use your method you would have to get consensus on who those top 5 captains are, good luck with that!  Leave it up to VP and Songin, they will increase stocking and the alewife very well may collapse, and then you can kiss the king goodbye, no bait, no salmon. If you want to dump the science, we should do as Andy Todd from OMNRF suggested a few years back at a Rochester SOL meeting, just dump a bunch of fish in the lake and see what gets caught, and if you end up with a bunch 10 lb cookie cutters, so be it, but lets not spend all this money on monitoring that everyone is just going to second guess anyway, especially based on some little graph screens and a few stomach samples.  The Objectives say TROPHY king, not a box full of teeners.  Maybe those guys catch a lot of fish (but then didn't everyone this year, except of course the Canadians?) but even Vince is not all science.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Prey-fish data collection is an interesting topic and there are two schools of thought.  1st is the fixed transect which means they trawl in the same areas year after year.  2nd is the random trawl which means today's trawl could be many many miles away and in a different direction & in a different depth than tomorrow's. Both methods pool a lot of data.

 

Fixed transect assumes the prey-fish will be at certain location/depths at certain times of the year and that it is equally likely that they are present and in the same quantity/condition here as they are 1/4, 1/2 or a mile east or west away.  These trawls are only a few minutes long.

 

The random trawl method doesn't make those assumptions but unfortunately requires much more time, fuel, effort and money to accomplish.

 

In all practicality, as a fisherman with a sonar unit, let's say your fishing E-W at a certain depth and trolling at 2 mph.  When you see a pod of bait, it only lasts 5-10 seconds on your screen.  Then it's gone.  From my experience, very often you don't see another for a good 15-20 minutes.  (sometimes longer) The 2nd pod could be 1/2 mile away from the first.  It may be bigger or it may be smaller than the previous.  (Sometimes I go back to the exact same GPS coordinates and can't find them again.)

 

The fixed transect  assumes an equal distribution of prey-fish about the lake.  My experience takes issue with that assumption.  Alewives are a tight school type fish.  The ball up in pods.  These pods vary in size and in location.  That location can change from weekend to weekend. Look at the data over the years.  A few years back tremendous numbers of alewives were reported off a single trawl yet in other trawls the nets came up empty.  Isn't that proof that the prey-fish are not randomly distributed across the lake?  My intuition tells me that if on the 4th, 9th, 6th & 14th trawls of the year, they had shifted their longitude to the right by a few degrees instead of the left, the years results might have been different. 

 

Don't get me wrong, USGS does a tremendous job out there for which I'm grateful, however there's a lot to be said for the word of the guys that troll with an eye on their fish-finder for 20-25 miles every day.

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"My intuition tells me that if on the 4th, 9th, 6th & 14th trawls of the year, they had shifted their longitude to the right by a few degrees instead of the left, the years results might have been different."

 

Random distribution would say that there is an equal chance of hitting the big pod or the empty one.  If the pooled mean for a year is going down in relation to prior year's means, it is an indication that the overall population has declined. If there is that much more bait out there, in a random sampling you should hit more of those big pods. The trawl methods were vetted by Sea Grant, and were indicated to be representative and provide a fair measure of the bait.  If they switched to a random trawl method, there would be comparability issues, and, of course, everyone would say they ran the wrong random trawl transects, unless they liked the data they saw.   Back to Andy Todd, if you want to continually reject and second guess the data, maybe it is time to save some money, just dump in a big bunch of fish, and let the chips fall where they may. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...