Sandy as a natural spawning creek?

[HB2]

Maybe a good approach would be to take Irondequoit and put all the efforts into that . That stream is probably the most suitable for this. 

And then see what happens after a few years . If it's going to succeed , that more than likely the best chance for it . 

[GAMBLER]

19 hours ago, King Davy said:

Likely down from Huron. Huron has a fishable population of Atlantic salmon in the lake and certainly in the St Mary’s River. I fished the st Mary’s for several years and caught many wonderful fish and lost a very big salmon that still haunts me today depicted in my first book in the chapter titled “The Haunting”.

 

I’ve seen pink salmon on the Catt that obviously came down from Huron. 

Last summer or the summer before there was a big influx of Pinks caught on Erie.  Pete Alex caught a bunch throughout the season.  He even had multiple fish in a couple of trips.  Cool to see.  I saw a photo of a pink from the Salmon River last fall too. 

[LongLine]

No record of Pinks ever intentionally stocked in Gr Lakes. CNDs wanted to stock them in Hudson Bay back in 1955, so got eggs from out west.  They didn't survive at hatchery.  Hatchery disposed of few surviving hatchlings/fingerlings down the "toilet" which led to Current River and Lake Superior. In '71, (8 generations later) some were caught in Huron and tribs in Huron have reported catches since.  In '85 NYS record Pink caught in Erie. (40 years later a "big" one caught on the SR)

. 

https://northernwilds.com/pink-salmon-an-improbable-tale-in-lake-superior/

 

https://www.outdoorlife.com/fishing/new-york-pink-salmon-record-rescinded/

 

Interesting facts:
- Only male Pinks develop "hump" at spawning time.
- Pinks very prolific.
- Pinks hard to differentiate from young Cohos (similar situation AS from Browns)
- Greatly expanded Pink populations cited as detrimental to King populations Vancouver to Alaska.
- Often advised never to "flush" aquarium fish.

 

Questions:
-  What are the odds that guy caught the only Pink in Lake Ontario? 
-  Pink caught on SR had "hump." If Nat Repro occurs on SR, has Mother Nature cross bred some with Kings?   

****

Back to Spawning areas:  Why not put the Sandy AS allotment in a small nearshore fish farm off Sandy?  Release after 6-9 months and let them determine where they want to go? Srvival instinct pretty strong. They'll enter the creek or stay in lake until spawning or stray a few miles to find successful habitat. E-W.  I.E. I-bay or Oak. If they enter the creek, they'd be available for "trib guys" (spawn or not) similar to the historical stocking of Powder Mill. (.E. DEC stocked a week before opening trout season & and crowds appeared. (Did they only stock spawners?)

 

NOTE: Hatchings & fingerlings require time in creek.  These would be yearlings plus 6-9 months and wouldn't necessarily require resident time for growth. 

 

 

[GAMBLER]

52 minutes ago, LongLine said:

No record of Pinks ever intentionally stocked in Gr Lakes. CNDs wanted to stock them in Hudson Bay back in 1955, so got eggs from out west.  They didn't survive at hatchery.  Hatchery disposed of few surviving hatchlings/fingerlings down the "toilet" which led to Current River and Lake Superior. In '71, (8 generations later) some were caught in Huron and tribs in Huron have reported catches since.  In '85 NYS record Pink caught in Erie. (40 years later a "big" one caught on the SR)

. 

https://northernwilds.com/pink-salmon-an-improbable-tale-in-lake-superior/

 

https://www.outdoorlife.com/fishing/new-york-pink-salmon-record-rescinded/

 

Interesting facts:
- Only male Pinks develop "hump" at spawning time.
- Pinks very prolific.
- Pinks hard to differentiate from young Cohos (similar situation AS from Browns)
- Greatly expanded Pink populations cited as detrimental to King populations Vancouver to Alaska.
- Often advised never to "flush" aquarium fish.

 

Questions:
-  What are the odds that guy caught the only Pink in Lake Ontario? 
-  Pink caught on SR had "hump." If Nat Repro occurs on SR, has Mother Nature cross bred some with Kings?   

****

Back to Spawning areas:  Why not put the Sandy AS allotment in a small nearshore fish farm off Sandy?  Release after 6-9 months and let them determine where they want to go? Srvival instinct pretty strong. They'll enter the creek or stay in lake until spawning or stray a few miles to find successful habitat. E-W.  I.E. I-bay or Oak. If they enter the creek, they'd be available for "trib guys" (spawn or not) similar to the historical stocking of Powder Mill. (.E. DEC stocked a week before opening trout season & and crowds appeared. (Did they only stock spawners?)

 

NOTE: Hatchings & fingerlings require time in creek.  These would be yearlings plus 6-9 months and wouldn't necessarily require resident time for growth. 

 

 

To raise Atlantics by dumping them in a pen in the lake only to release them to go wherever they want, isn't a good restoration strategy.  What would they eat?  How would you feed them?   

[GAMBLER]

If Irondequoit Creek is a possible trib for Atlantic natural reproduction, why can't the DEC get Atlantic eggs and contract out the PowderMill Hatchery to raise the Atlantics.  This would give the Atlantics a better chance of imprinting on the creek.  This would increase the number of fish returning to a more fertile water.  

[LongLine]

3 hours ago, GAMBLER said:

To raise Atlantics by dumping them in a pen in the lake only to release them to go wherever they want, isn't a good restoration strategy.  What would they eat?  How would you feed them?   

"Google" Fish farms to see how they work.  "Google" Fish farm incidents/escapes to see effects on local tribs.

[Gator]

Just as an interesting aside, anyone who's fished Alaska recently appreciates that the over stocking and abundance of pinks has led to their spawning runs occurring every year rather than every two years and has negatively impacted returns on most other salmonids. Driven by money, of course.

 

They were so prolific that it was almost impossible to drift fish without hooking them. They'd be finning in the current break caused by your legs as you were wading. What a nuisance. 

[LongLine]

3 hours ago, GAMBLER said:

If Irondequoit Creek is a possible trib for Atlantic natural reproduction, why can't the DEC get Atlantic eggs and contract out the PowderMill Hatchery to raise the Atlantics.  This would give the Atlantics a better chance of imprinting on the creek.  This would increase the number of fish returning to a more fertile water.  

Water? Facilities?  Someone complained about "damaged" fish from raceways? 

 

I didn't pick Sandy and I'm sure the "powers that be" didn't pick it just to pi$$ off a few fishermen.

[LongLine]

I agree with Gator on that one.  Exactly what I've heard.  You don't want Pinks! 

[GAMBLER]

4 hours ago, LongLine said:

Water? Facilities?  Someone complained about "damaged" fish from raceways? 

 

I didn't pick Sandy and I'm sure the "powers that be" didn't pick it just to pi$$ off a few fishermen.

Powder mill has water.  It has raceways.  Plenty of room to raise the small amount of Atlantics to cover the stocking on the creek.  It would take contracting out the hatchery and possibly staffing it.  
Raising them in the lake, they will not imprint on a trib.  If they don’t imprint on a fertile trib, they could spawn anywhere.  Chances of picking a trib that would support natural reproduction would be slim.  That would be even worse than stocking them in the Oak and Sandy.  

[HB2]

A fish farm off shore of Sandy ? 

 

Got to say LL 

 

 

You come up with some Dandys . 

 

[LongLine]

Brian - Powder Mill (Riedman Foundation) is very small and raises 30,000 fish annually in all stages of life.  As said before target for the lake is 200,000.AS (tgt for sandy 50K). You said "damaged fish" come from being raised in concrete raceways and better stock has to be used. No raceway "damage" in a farm. 

 

Some have said they won't grow in Sandy due to creek conditions, citing warmth, mud bottom, lack of flow, run-off, stocking survival, etc. I.E. Some say "They'll just die off." 

 

My proposal would be to place a small farm nearshore, just to NE of Sandy. (Guessing 20-30FOW) Given the south shore (nearshore) current is west to east, Sandy water flows that direction.

 

This would solve warmth and flow issues. Run-off would be diluted, yet still a component of Sandy water. Stocking survival would increase as fish protected and grow larger thus more capable of withstanding whatever "harsh" conditions fish encounter. I.E. Yearling vs Yearling+3/4.  

 

Upon release, they may enter creek (for "trib guys" to catch them as at Powder Mill with March stockings) or they may head to more suitable "grounds" for reproduction. (Hence no need to explore for better spawning grounds) Win-win situation either/both ways. As some fishermen don't agree with and resist the fisheries people, why not let the fish decide? (Bottom-up vs top-down problem solving?)

 

"Google" Atlantic Fish Farms and you'll see sizes range from10s of thousands to millions. The size Sandy target approximately 30 ft diameter.  Interesting how they feed them too.  I.E. Automatic feeders, like hatcheries, with newer pond feeders being solar powered.  

 

Look at the 2 links below for info on Fish farms. Basically just bigger net-pens.

_____________ .    

HB - Thanx for the compliment. (fish farms are not my idea...this application yes)

 

Net pens were pretty "dandy" back in '97-98 when they were 1st attempted here and then took a few years to confirm effectiveness.  Net pens tried here after 20+ years of experience with lake stocking.  They came from West coast who initiated it in late 60's. Fish farms were invented in Norway (North Sea) well over 100 yrs ago and are now successful worldwide. 

 

US fish farms are under NOAA and USF&W auspicies. 

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/species/atlantic-salmon/aquaculture

 

From the CDN side: 

https://atlanticfishfarmers.com/fish-farm-facts/how-farmed-salmon-grow/

 

https://atlanticfishfarmers.com/new-research-points-to-a-better-way-to-restore-wild-salmon/

 

[HB2]

Are we really going to invest a ton of time and resources into something that has been tried before and didn't really work in Sandy creek ? 

 

At some point doesn't common sense take over ? Put a fish farm offshore to have 8 to 15 ft waves , which has happened and they wind up in the yacht club parking lot ?  

 

Do you really believe what you are suggesting here or are you just cat fishing us ? A man of your education should be able to see the science and realize what you suggest has a extremely low chance of succeeding without major , major ecosystem changes . 

[rolmops]

Please do not mention fish farming and Lake Ontario in the same phrase again. Somebody may read this and give it a commercial try. If God forbid he succeeds, we will end up with fish farm pollution and tons of antibiotics in the water. The same thing happened off the Canadian west coast and it caused so much trouble and natural fish die off that both the provincial government and the businesses fought very hard to keep it a secret. 

[LongLine]

HB obviously didn't read through the links.  Hasn't been tried here before.....Atlantic and North Sea much rougher than our lake...much cheaper than a new hatchery... maintains the predator-prey balance.  Guessing just another post to whine about(?)

 

rolmops - All Commercial efforts are highly restricted on the lake. No commercial licenses have been issued since 1986  (I understand only one may be left for perch trawling) Technology and methods have evolved considerably since those initial failures out west where the AS are considered invasive.   Any pen failure on the East coast is not frowned upon as the AS are wanted there. GLFC and associated agencies want them here too.  I don't see increase in pollution or antibiotics as there'd be no increase in stocking allotment; only helping the current allotment survive a little longer and then letting them "do their thing."  They ("pens") are now under NOAA and USF&WS auspices.  Please remember this is suggested to aid restoration of a native specie as a scientific effort.  

[HB2]

I remember when they brought up the offshore racing boats to Sodus and they were going to have a Great Lakes circuit. 30+ years ago . Just happened there were 5 to 9 ft waves forecast  . Race organizers said ,no problem , we race in the ocean and it gets rougher than this small lake . So the race started and a few boats flipped over immediately and that was the end of that . Ocean gets swells and Great lakes get short distance between the waves.  Not the same . 

 

Also surface temps can be up to 80 deg and we get East wind and lake flips and it's 41 ice water next day  . I don't think small fish would fare  well at all with that . 

 

Did all this come up on the Google search ? 

 

If they did this they would need people and boats to feed and moniter . Very inconvenient. And costly . 

 

Another , looks good on paper , not well thought out suggestion . And there is still no guarantee that Atlantics will run and more importantly Nat reproduce in Sandy ..

if this happens . Which is the goal . 

 

If they don't make it in Irondequoit, Sandy has no chance . But I guess that has already been proven . 

 

Lets see what happens this year . 

I might be wrong , who knows . 

 

I haven't caught a lake Atlantic in a long time . And I have been out there a lot . 

 

 

 

 

 

[GAMBLER]

14 hours ago, LongLine said:

Brian - Powder Mill (Riedman Foundation) is very small and raises 30,000 fish annually in all stages of life.  As said before target for the lake is 200,000.AS (tgt for sandy 50K). You said "damaged fish" come from being raised in concrete raceways and better stock has to be used. No raceway "damage" in a farm. 

 

Some have said they won't grow in Sandy due to creek conditions, citing warmth, mud bottom, lack of flow, run-off, stocking survival, etc. I.E. Some say "They'll just die off." 

 

My proposal would be to place a small farm nearshore, just to NE of Sandy. (Guessing 20-30FOW) Given the south shore (nearshore) current is west to east, Sandy water flows that direction.

 

This would solve warmth and flow issues. Run-off would be diluted, yet still a component of Sandy water. Stocking survival would increase as fish protected and grow larger thus more capable of withstanding whatever "harsh" conditions fish encounter. I.E. Yearling vs Yearling+3/4.  

 

Upon release, they may enter creek (for "trib guys" to catch them as at Powder Mill with March stockings) or they may head to more suitable "grounds" for reproduction. (Hence no need to explore for better spawning grounds) Win-win situation either/both ways. As some fishermen don't agree with and resist the fisheries people, why not let the fish decide? (Bottom-up vs top-down problem solving?)

 

"Google" Atlantic Fish Farms and you'll see sizes range from10s of thousands to millions. The size Sandy target approximately 30 ft diameter.  Interesting how they feed them too.  I.E. Automatic feeders, like hatcheries, with newer pond feeders being solar powered.  

 

Look at the 2 links below for info on Fish farms. Basically just bigger net-pens.

_____________ .    

HB - Thanx for the compliment. (fish farms are not my idea...this application yes)

 

Net pens were pretty "dandy" back in '97-98 when they were 1st attempted here and then took a few years to confirm effectiveness.  Net pens tried here after 20+ years of experience with lake stocking.  They came from West coast who initiated it in late 60's. Fish farms were invented in Norway (North Sea) well over 100 yrs ago and are now successful worldwide. 

 

US fish farms are under NOAA and USF&W auspicies. 

https://www.fisheries.noaa.gov/species/atlantic-salmon/aquaculture

 

From the CDN side: 

https://atlanticfishfarmers.com/fish-farm-facts/how-farmed-salmon-grow/

 

https://atlanticfishfarmers.com/new-research-points-to-a-better-way-to-restore-wild-salmon/

 

Tim,

 

I'm talking about raising the Atlantics just for Irondequoit Creek at Powder Mill.  Even the DEC is admitting Sandy isn't a good option.  Dave mentioned it in his one post.  Put Sandy to bed It's not going to work.  I wish it was a viable option but it's not.  If the program is about restoring a native species, Fish Farms will not work.  Imprinting is important if you want the Atlantics to return home to a fertile trib to have a better chance at survival.  Dumping them in the lake, they will roam and try to spawn anywhere.  Why have Atlantics return to the Sandy, Genny, Oak, 18 mile ect. that are non-fertile tribs?  Raising some Atlantics in a Hatchery on Irondequoit Creek will help imprinting for those fish.  Seeing that Atlantics need to stay in the hatchery for the first year of their life, how well would they do in the summer when the lake temp is in the mid to upper 70's?  Boiled Atlantic salmon anyone?  

[King Davy]

Fish farms in the ocean have created more problems to the areas 100’s of 1000’s of people have put their life’s work into restoring native wild salmon populations. Atlantic salmon born in a river stay for at least two years and some times longer in environments like the George River in Ungava Bay. It’s the natal river system that creates a healthy salmon. Fish farms are mostly used to raise salmon for consumption not to replenish stocks. And HB2 is correct the waste from those offshore farms do more damage than good to the ecosystem of those locations.

 

Brian and I are on the same wave length here. Find a stream (and we only have a few) that can support wild reproduction. We are fortunate to have one in our back yard … Irondequoit. This would be a long term investment and experiment. Dedicate a space and partnership with Powder Mill and the state and raise fish there in the natural water the fish need to imprint on. There isn’t a ton of room there too bad you couldn’t hold more than 5k.

 

However the latest success in direct stocking at both the Oak and Sandy had been direct stocking in the mouths of those creeks and have had decent returns. So raise 5k in the creek and if you can dedicate another 10 to 15k to this experiment direct stocking them at the mouth of the bay. One might say how about the mouth of the creek however the predators in the bay would slaughter those young fish even as yearlings. 
 

Much like our other dedicated programs pick a time frame to experiment and measure results. Example (the new Brook trout management plan is from now to 2040) For me you’d have to dedicate 10 years to this as long as you can do so without impacting the rest of the LO program.

 

We were scheduled to electro fish Irondequoit today through Friday at four locations including powder mill. Got called off due to the storm this morning and forecasted 3/4 inch of rain over the next 24 hours. But DEC region 8 now has Irondequoit on their sampling schedule due to the finding of a solid population of wild brown trout. As I stated before if brown trout can successfully reproduce in the Irondequoit then the habit is certainly viable for Atlantic salmon. Now you have an environment that will work. The next hurdle is can Atlantic salmon this new hybrid strain of supposedly thiaminase resistant fish successfully reproduce. If the answer after a prolonged period is no then I’ll admit it’s probably not possible. But NYS unlike the other Great Lakes states including Ontario have not in my humble opinion put a true program together to do the science. Instead dumped a bunch of fish in front of some popular rivers and streams and hoped they would return so people can catch them. Which is great but to me that’s no more sustainable than making a living rolling dice at a table in a casino.

 

Great discussion and thoughts from all of you folks. We have to encourage a dedicated program or quit all together. I hope as a love for heritage and wild fisheries we choose to create a dedicated program. But just tossing fish in and hoping they get big enough to get caught isn’t a true science program to restore a native species.

 

Longline I just read a report of 200,000 chinook salmon have returned to the upper reaches of the Klamath system. If that’s true a pretty amazing status in such a short period of open upper river access. We can do this stuff if we are dedicated to it.

[LongLine]

HB - Great distraction!  Another example of exaggeration and "alternate reality."  I witnessed race from genny to Webster - from Durand in 90's. Boats close to 120 mph.  None flipped. Obviously confusing recent Lake of the Ozarks incident. (100+ mph on calm water)

 

Knowledge of North Atlantic or North Sea is lacking. (D-day was postponed due to Force 4 winds.  I.E. whitewater with 6 ft waves.)  Yes, generally swells but those swells are much more powerful, not to mention tides or huricane events. Ever wonder how the mid-lake buoy stays in olace with 25 ft waves? Anchoring is important per NOAA..

 

Confusion exists when comparing Alewives with AS regarding thermal effects. Especially yrlngs + 3/4 AS) Size and specie. (8 g vs 80+ g AS)  Guess the temp change kills Browns stocking too (?) Lake doesn't "flip" as ponds do. Rather sometimes wind driven upwellings.  If "flips" then offshore surface temps would drastically drop, which they don't.  Formal records of nearshore temps show temporary 71 to 46F drop, not 80-41F drop.

 

Often knowledge gains can come from Goggle searches from credible sources.  Other sources often BS.

 

 "haven't caught them in a long time" (?)  Guess your post on pg 3 was B.S. or "memory issues"

 

 

As I've said (on 1st page) "stop half-stepping" and they should "put up or shut up." 

Bryan - So you want to rebuild a private Hatchery that stocks Browns of all sizes in other waters and thereby be detrimental to other NYS fisheries for lack of fish? Oh boy! "Lake guys" vs "Trib guys!"  Here we go again - not tired of losing those battles yet?  

 

Davy - I agree that a dedicated "non Half stepping" approach is required. 

 

I'm curious as to the effect of competition between Browns and AS.  I'd hate to find out the hard way that it has a detrimental effect there especially with all the hard work that went into that budding Brown fishery.

 

I'm in favor of letting the fish decide where they want to go rather than trying to force any one place on them.  They may all go to the SR...who knows? 

 

I don't see "pollution" a problem as we're not talking millions of fish...only the allotment that already goes in and only for a brief time.  Micro-plastics seem to be a much bigger issue than "fish poop." 

 

Gald to hear the restoration is paying off.   It's paid off just about everywhere attempted. 
 

[GAMBLER]

7 minutes ago, LongLine said:

HB - Great distraction!  Another example of exaggeration and "alternate reality."  I witnessed race from genny to Webster - from Durand in 90's. Boats close to 120 mph.  None flipped. Obviously confusing recent Lake of the Ozarks incident. (100+ mph on calm water)

 

Knowledge of North Atlantic or North Sea is lacking. (D-day was postponed due to Force 4 winds.  I.E. whitewater with 6 ft waves.)  Yes, generally swells but those swells are much more powerful, not to mention tides or huricane events. Ever wonder how the mid-lake buoy stays in olace with 25 ft waves? Anchoring is important per NOAA..

 

Confusion exists when comparing Alewives with AS regarding thermal effects. Especially yrlngs + 3/4 AS) Size and specie. (8 g vs 80+ g AS)  Guess the temp change kills Browns stocking too (?) Lake doesn't "flip" as ponds do. Rather sometimes wind driven upwellings.  If "flips" then offshore surface temps would drastically drop, which they don't.  Formal records of nearshore temps show temporary 71 to 46F drop, not 80-41F drop.

 

Often knowledge gains can come from Goggle searches from credible sources.  Other sources often BS.

 

 "haven't caught them in a long time" (?)  Guess your post on pg 3 was B.S. or "memory issues"

 

 

As I've said (on 1st page) "stop half-stepping" and they should "put up or shut up." 

Bryan - So you want to rebuild a private Hatchery that stocks Browns of all sizes in other waters and thereby be detrimental to other NYS fisheries for lack of fish? Oh boy! "Lake guys" vs "Trib guys!"  Here we go again - not tired of losing those battles yet?  

 

Davy - I agree that a dedicated "non Half stepping" approach is required. 

 

I'm curious as to the effect of competition between Browns and AS.  I'd hate to find out the hard way that it has a detrimental effect there especially with all the hard work that went into that budding Brown fishery.

 

I'm in favor of letting the fish decide where they want to go rather than trying to force any one place on them.  They may all go to the SR...who knows? 

 

I don't see "pollution" a problem as we're not talking millions of fish...only the allotment that already goes in and only for a brief time.  Micro-plastics seem to be a much bigger issue than "fish poop." 

 

Gald to hear the restoration is paying off.   It's paid off just about everywhere attempted. 
 

The little amount of trout stocked from Powder Mill could be picked up at one of the other hatcheries.  Again, I'm not saying to raise all the allotment of Atlantic's at Powder Mill.  Raise some of the Atlantics you would be stocking at Powder Mill.  This way they would imprint on the creek and return.  Letting the fish decide to return when you are trying to restore a native species is not a great way to have success.  Almost as dumb of a decision to boil Atlantics in a salmon farm in the lake....  If the project is to restore Atlantic populations, you have to give them the best chance to survive and naturally reproduce.  To naturally reproduce, you have to get them to return to a tributary that can support it.   If that is not the way the program is going to be ran, it should change to just a stocking program and dump them anywhere and move on.  Putting money and resources into a project and not give the species the best chance at succeeding is a waste of time and resources.  

[HB2]

Nope , the boats off Sodus flipped . 

Google it . It was in Sept as I remember . 

 

What you suggest makes to much sense Brian .

 

 Hey LL I'm still willing to give you a ride to Altmar .