Lamprey Eel Information Update

[GAMBLER]

  On 3/28/2025 at 6:14 PM, HB2 said:

Sorry Brian , I ain't buying it 

 

We need people in leadership positions that are problem solvers .

This is a problem , so fix it . The state has more employees per resident than any state in the country.  Figure it out . It doesn't have to be hatchery people . Be creative . Adapt , overcome . 

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Your thinking would only work in a state that give a sh*t about us outdoorsmen.  If they did, your thinking would be used.

[LongLine]

NY has a population of 19.6 million and NYSDEC employs just shy of 3,000.  This equates to 1.5 DEC employees per 10,000 residents.

 

Pennsylvania has population of 12.8 million and DEP employs 2,500 which equates to 2.0 DEP employees per 10,000 residents.

 

Ohio has population of 11.7 million and ODNR employs 3,300 which equates to 2.8 employees per 10,000 residents.

 

NYSDEC would need 3,920 employees to reach PA's ratio of 2 per 10,000 residents. They'd need 5,488 to reach ODNR ratio of 2.8. 

 

ODNR operates 6 hatcheries and stocks approx. 320 locations.

 

Pa Fish & Boat Commission (DEP) operates 12 hatcheries and stocks 823 locations.

 

NYSDEC operates 12 hatcheries plus the Lake Ontario Unit.  They stock over 1,200 locations.

 

Looks to me that NYSDEC does a lot more with less than these other states and is greatly understaffed.

 

Although some would, I would not rely on an apprentice plumber to fix an electrical problem in my house.

 

 

[HB2]

I'm talking all NYS employees 

 

Am I to believe in the DEC  and SUNY system that there isn't a qualified scientist that could research and master this ? And then possibly train a few others to do this . If not ,it's  a pretty sad state of affairs .  I'm sure the Lampricide supplier has specs that need to be followed . Or quite possibly they may want their own techs to do the treatments .  

 

[dreamsteelie]

https://www.bridgemi.com/michigan-environment-watch/trump-reverses-cuts-great-lakes-lamprey-program-uncertainty-remains

[LongLine]

Thanx for update.  

[dreamsteelie]

https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2025/04/11/invasive-sea-lamprey-covid-great-lakes/83025956007/

 

Attached article with some additional information.

 

Thanks,

Captain Pete

[Gator]

Thanks, Pete. I think the article mirrors what most of us have observed. It seems like lamprey can be kept at bay but are never going to be eradicated - and there are some perhaps legitimate concerns emerging about dumping a nitrophenol into our water. The alternative, niclosamide, is a compound that I've used extensively in the lab; like nitrophenols, it dissociates mitochondrial substrate utilization from energy production, but we also employed it as a non-selective inhibitor for certain classes of calcium activated ion channels. Hence, in addition to the financial considerations that we've explored here, there are also other factors at play. These chemicals are undoubtedly the most effective and selective options for lamprey control, but selectivity is a funny thing...

 

Regardless, it's good to keep up to date. Thanks again.

[HB2]

  On 4/14/2025 at 5:26 PM, Gator said:

Thanks, Pete. I think the article mirrors what most of us have observed. It seems like lamprey can be kept at bay but are never going to be eradicated - and there are some perhaps legitimate concerns emerging about dumping a nitrophenol into our water. The alternative, niclosamide, is a compound that I've used extensively in the lab; like nitrophenols, it dissociates mitochondrial substrate utilization from energy production, but we also employed it as a non-selective inhibitor for certain classes of calcium activated ion channels. Hence, in addition to the financial considerations that we've explored here, there are also other factors at play. These chemicals are undoubtedly the most effective and selective options for lamprey control, but selectivity is a funny thing...

 

Regardless, it's good to keep up to date. Thanks again.

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Yeah , I understand all this . 

 

Sounds like we have our volunteer scientist to head the NYS publis lamprey abatement program . 

 

I'll drag pipes 

[Gator]

And I'll help you!! Nothing prevents a scientist from getting his hands dirty. Or blistered, like Tommy used to make fun of me for back before he had floating docks and we needed to use the 40 lb sledge to drive the posts into the bottom of Sandy. Thank God we had a Duane.

[HB2]

Gator the Lamprey Slayer 

[dreamsteelie]

Thanks for the input Gator and Everyone,

 

I know all of these chemicals are required to have MSDS sheets of course and would assume all parties involved considered the ramifications-if any of all of the products being used in waterways.  I also know there are extensive permits that are required to do this and would assume each department issuing them knows of the chemicals and those ramifications?  Before approving.  But the assume word gets one in trouble.

 

As stated in a prior email, some of the ingredient(s) come from China.

 

Any known solutions or chemicals should be passed along to the GLFC.  I know they are currently working on a different version of the TFM because they fear that eventually, the current formula will lose its effectiveness as the Lamprey adapt and become more immune. So the GLFC is preparing for this scenario.  They have already stated that 5% or so currently survive TFM and are immune. I asked them at our meeting if TFM has been altered much since it's inception and they replied-no.

 

I have attached a recent resolution we worked on recently-see attached.  It has been accepted and now is public.

 

Captain Pete

 

GLFC U.S. Resolution for Full Support of the GL SLCP Including Full Restoration of Staff in the US to Implement Control Program_15April2025.pdfFetching info...

[LongLine]

TFM requires chemical training and certification.  Putting anything in the water would be a real issue with the state.  Getting kind of late this year for chemical application anyways, so how about this:  HB2 use his contractor connections to build a Lamprey trap at his place on the creek.  Then as retirement approaches, he organizes a volunteer group to monitor and "harvest" them. (kind of like the net pen projects) Maybe freeze them and export them to UK to recoup costs?  (They love Lamprey Pie...right?)

[rolmops]

  On 4/15/2025 at 11:43 PM, LongLine said:

TFM requires chemical training and certification.  Putting anything in the water would be a real issue with the state.  Getting kind of late this year for chemical application anyways, so how about this:  HB2 use his contractor connections to build a Lamprey trap at his place on the creek.  Then as retirement approaches, he organizes a volunteer group to monitor and "harvest" them. (kind of like the net pen projects) Maybe freeze them and export them to UK to recoup costs?  (They love Lamprey Pie...right?)

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Did you ever consider writing something for SNL?

[rolmops]

This is a picture of an eel weir (google "paling fuik") they can be bought online -Ali Baba -amongst others sell them. They were developed for eel fishing in the narrow ditches of the Netherlands. They would be perfect for lamprey fishing. You set them in a stream, and every day you pick up the end loops where the lamprey has gathered, pull it out of the water into a barrel ,empty it out and put it back in the water. 

Edited April 16 by rolmops

[Gator]

You guys are killing it! I almost gagged at the thought of "lamprey pie". 

 

Thanks to Pete for keeping us informed and up to date. 

 

And H2B - if I'm going to take on a "Slayer" title, I humbly request assignment to Sarah Michelle Gellar's squad. 

 

Okay, onto actual science. I read Mike Siefkes' 2017 review on established and emerging approaches to sea lamprey control https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5448140/ and it made me wonder whether a combinatorial approach, using much lower doses of multiple chemicals together, might be the ticket. The current drugs are detoxified through different mechanisms, and the lamprey's inability to do so as effectively as other fish results in their relative susceptibility - albeit only ~8-10 fold over that of other fishes.

 

When we run into a situation in the lab where we have a couple of chemicals that only exhibit <10-fold selectivity but are effective for different reasons, we can often combine them at way lower doses and get multiplicative effects. Hence, we benefit from less off-target effects (here, that would be killing other types of fish) and increased efficacy.

 

I am going to reach out to Michael. I'm sure that this type of approach is being tested. But since mitochondrial function is exactly our area of expertise, it could be an interesting collaboration. Moreover since I'm retiring in a year of so, it would be a fun project to invest some time as things wind down, and with their funding issues, it might be that they could use some unsolicited aid moving forward.

Edited April 16 by Gator

[ChrisS]

I suppose CRISPR tech is a non-starter due to the connection from the Great Lakes to the ocean?

[LongLine]

You guys think I'm kidding?  It's a real thing.  They consider it a delicacy for royalty. GLFC sent some to Queen Elizabeth.

https://greatlakesecho.org/2022/09/12/michigans-connection-to-queen-elizabeth-ii-lamprey-pie/

 

Grind it up, add some veggies, syrup, wine. Bake in a pie crust...

 

It's a meat pie.  (But I'd wash it down with a solid swig of 90 proof...maybe rum)

 

 

[Gator]

  On 4/16/2025 at 1:14 PM, ChrisS said:

I suppose CRISPR tech is a non-starter due to the connection from the Great Lakes to the ocean?

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You might be able to engineer a skewing toward males like they're trying with Asian carp, but cross breeding is certainly an issue. I teach medical students about CRISPR/Cas9 gene editing, as we've used it in the lab now for over 15 years, and the final part of the lecture presents three myths:  

 

Myth 1: Current genome editing technologies are not error prone

Myth 2: Precision equals control

Myth 3: DNA functions are modular and changes are predictable

 

I'd be more inclined to favor an approach where you genetically modify larval lamprey's food to express a double-stranded RNA that targets a lamprey-specific gene product through RNA interference. I think that might be the safest bet, but it still mucks about with playing God.

[rolmops]

The things that seems to be missing is are natural enemies of the lamprey  and mechanical means to eliminate them. Did anybody consider pumping liquid nitrogen into the muck where the small ones are?

[dreamsteelie]

More of the same information attached PDF

 

"A team of fifteen scientists from six agencies found that the answer to both questions is a resounding “yes.” The research team found that reductions in lampricide applications—a pesticide highly selective to lampreys—during 2020-2021 corresponded to a rapid increase in sea lamprey abundance. In Lake Ontario, sea lamprey population sizes increased over an order of magnitude (10x)."
 

Captain Pete

2025_SeaLampreyControl_Pandemic_Reduction.pdfFetching info...

[HB2]

  On 4/18/2025 at 10:53 PM, dreamsteelie said:

More of the same information attached PDF

 

"A team of fifteen scientists from six agencies found that the answer to both questions is a resounding “yes.” The research team found that reductions in lampricide applications—a pesticide highly selective to lampreys—during 2020-2021 corresponded to a rapid increase in sea lamprey abundance. In Lake Ontario, sea lamprey population sizes increased over an order of magnitude (10x)."
 

Captain Pete

2025_SeaLampreyControl_Pandemic_Reduction.pdf 541.47 kB · 0 downloads

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Is this some sort of epifiny? 

 

So they cut Lamprey abatement and their was an increase in lampreys 

 

And it took a team of 15 scientists from 6 agency to confirm this .

 

Wow .  

[Gator]

I suspect that it's more a "devil is in the details" kind of thing, but what do I know? I mean, we study aging in my lab, and I guess our findings that aging is bad are along the same lines lol.

[dreamsteelie]

See attached schedule for the Great Lakes!  As you will see, it is quite extensive.

 

Attachments:

Cover letter and Great Lakes treatment dates and locations.  Originally 8 locations were scheduled for Lake O but this was increased-apparently.

 

Captain Pete

GLFC 2025_PR_TreatmentSchedule.pdfFetching info... GLFC 2025 Treatment Schedule.pdf 4.21.2025.pdfFetching info...

Edited April 21 by dreamsteelie

[Gator]

Great to see this moving forward. Thanks for the intel!

[Gill-T]

The USGS just got word they are being shut down. The netting portion of the alewife survey was completed but the behind the scenes numbers crunching and reporting is probably not going to happen. What a kick to the balls.