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Seneca (rumor)greenridge power plant got approved


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Let's step back a little and have a closer look at the nature of what the company is intending to do: it is to risk messing up a body of water that serves as a water source for thousands of people for a freaking game of questionable value controlled in large part by the Chinese government. The job creation aspect may be a myth as the computerization is in large part automated

https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-mining/

Edited by Sk8man
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24 minutes ago, Sk8man said:

Let's step back a little and have a closer look at the nature of what the company is intending to do: it is to risk messing up a body of water that serves as a water source for thousands of people for a freaking game of questionable value controlled in large part by the Chinese government. The job creation aspect may be a myth as the computerizqation is in large part automated

https://99bitcoins.com/bitcoin-mining/


I couldn't agree more, Les.  Thank you for voicing that.  Especially a body of water that is already in need of more help than any other finger lake... lampreys, high salt content, algae, zebras, etc.

Edited by cinnamon fish
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I have been down there by the discharge stream recently in the fall. Water was steaming and hot! Not to mention how would the trout swim up through to make into spawning grounds? That’s water was bad


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Was all of this regarding the water intake and release not a problem years ago when NYSEG ran the power plant? Did people not care as much? Why was the fishing great years ago despite this warm water discharge? Does this discharge hurt the recruitment of lamprey? So many questions

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I always thought algae blooms were a result of high nitrogen runoff and other chemicals from fertilizers and such.  Frogger during the 80s-90s you spoke of the fishermen congregating around the warm water?  During that time was there a higher percentage of algae blooms? I guess its probably hard compare.  In Tampa it was terrrible to see the algae bloom come in and wipe out parts of the bay, Redfish and snook would be dead everywhere. So sad.  Hope that doesn't happen.  Do algae blooms kill lampreys? Just being trying to stay positive.

To be honest, it wasn’t even a thing back then or I was too young and stupid to know the dangers of it. Warm water discharge does a lot of positive things for the fishery. Now, with that said, what’s in that outflow and the changes it could make going from high to low etc can be devastating. There are numerous heated outflows in out fisheries that make for some outstanding fishing. I’d want to know the details. It’s not to comforting with what Les pointed out with where this is originating from.


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2 hours ago, RickKG said:

Bitcoin operations definitely will not add many (as in hundreds) of jobs to local economy

Me and 2 other guys helped a guy install 2 million dollars worth of machines in a ware house in Geneva about 7 years ago took us about a week once they were all connected and running good the guy in charge said thanks here’s you pay and moved out to Washington to expand with his investor from Japan. once they’re in and running no ones involved unless one has a error then you go in and spend 5 minutes to switch it out

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Hundreds of jobs no way my 850 mw plant only employs 35 Full time plus outages in spring and fall with 200-300 contractors for support. This was a 200 mw facility in coal days and now around 109 converted to gas turbine plus 20 mws for computers. Cooling all the computers has to be high discharge temp. Its not walk away technology there will always be maintenance they are looking at increasing mega watts to 500 plus by 2025 my guess would be new york taxes will chase em out. Bitcoin computers need cheap cooling from what I've read. Tax incentive?

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no one ever said hundreds of jobs.  Also there seems to be focus on the bitcoin aspect.  that part is more or less irrelevant bitcoing mining put simply is a program that is running on a series of servers.  that part is not the key here what is key is those computers require power and that is what the plant would be used to provide the plant itself would require a staff of some sort to keep it running.  maybe its a dozen people but that is not exactly a populous area so a dozen jobs is significant.   yes there would contractors in and out at times as well but contractors make a living doing short jobs large and small so anything that produces those contracts is important to there economy  if every job that took a week or less disappeared than a large percentage of contractors would go out of business.  As far as pollution the big concern is thermal pollution.  the water would be used primarily for cooling in one form or another as long as the temperature is not to high it can benefit the fishery overall even with large swings as the lake itself still provides a fairly stable fall back as well as the stream above the discharge.  

algae blooms happen and are not by default bad in fact they can be an important source of food at the bottom of the food chain.  That said abnormal nutrient loads can lead to "harmful" algae blooms or blooms of organisms that produce toxins most notably botulism.  to some extent even these blooms can be a normal and natural occurrence.   A lake like Seneca is typically low in nutrients and in that scenario a warm water discharge cannot cause a bloom as there is no food for the algae.  Nutrient loading is by far the bigger cause of blooms that are abnormal in size or frequency.  

 

In many cases the photo period is also more important for good algae growth which is why you dont see them in the winter months even in warm water discharges.   Running the power plant is very unlikely to cause any change the algae grown unless some additional form of pollution is added to the runoff.  

i do however think that air pollution could be a concern as a turbine that is that inefficient will require a lot more fuel to generate the desired electricity.  Though natural gas is a fairly clean burning source it is not perfect and there are some emissions.

 

 

  

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I’ve got no problem with the plant running like at full capacity, I know discharge will help speeding up the lakes ecosystem just the thing that gets me is why bitcoins why not something that benefits local use of the plant

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The post above did.....

no one ever said hundreds of jobs.  Also there seems to be focus on the bitcoin aspect.  that part is more or less irrelevant bitcoing mining put simply is a program that is running on a series of servers.  that part is not the key here what is key is those computers require power and that is what the plant would be used to provide the plant itself would require a staff of some sort to keep it running.  maybe its a dozen people but that is not exactly a populous area so a dozen jobs is significant.   yes there would contractors in and out at times as well but contractors make a living doing short jobs large and small so anything that produces those contracts is important to there economy  if every job that took a week or less disappeared than a large percentage of contractors would go out of business.  As far as pollution the big concern is thermal pollution.  the water would be used primarily for cooling in one form or another as long as the temperature is not to high it can benefit the fishery overall even with large swings as the lake itself still provides a fairly stable fall back as well as the stream above the discharge.  
algae blooms happen and are not by default bad in fact they can be an important source of food at the bottom of the food chain.  That said abnormal nutrient loads can lead to "harmful" algae blooms or blooms of organisms that produce toxins most notably botulism.  to some extent even these blooms can be a normal and natural occurrence.   A lake like Seneca is typically low in nutrients and in that scenario a warm water discharge cannot cause a bloom as there is no food for the algae.  Nutrient loading is by far the bigger cause of blooms that are abnormal in size or frequency.  
 
In many cases the photo period is also more important for good algae growth which is why you dont see them in the winter months even in warm water discharges.   Running the power plant is very unlikely to cause any change the algae grown unless some additional form of pollution is added to the runoff.  
i do however think that air pollution could be a concern as a turbine that is that inefficient will require a lot more fuel to generate the desired electricity.  Though natural gas is a fairly clean burning source it is not perfect and there are some emissions.
 
 
  


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The algae I mentioned is harmful algae, toxic HABs.  We've had significant outbreaks multiple times on both Seneca and Cayuga the past few summers to the point that they had to close swimming at multiple parks, multiple times.  I know that's mostly due to runoff chemicals, but also in combination with high humidity and warm water.  I get that warm water output is nice for fishing in the winter and spring, but it's not good in summer.  And 160 million gallons of 108 degree water running through a significant stream everyday is gonna kill nearly all organisms in that stream.

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I know for a fact that the power ant on Cayuga...what ever its called now....has the intake screens installed. I put cranes on the job and saw the screens myself.

I don't know, just a big concern. I just wish the DEC would require them (and it appears they have the power to do so, so why don't they??) Install screens which will prevent crustaceans, eggs, and fish from being sucked into the intake pumps and ground sauce. DEC PLEASE RESPOND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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6 hours ago, Heath said:

I know for a fact that the power ant on Cayuga...what ever its called now....has the intake screens installed. I put cranes on the job and saw the screens myself.

 


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Um, yeah. This conversation has been specific to Grenlige on Seneca lake. 

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11 hours ago, CHINOOKY said:

Its doesn't matter its like talking to peta or green peace.....

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That's low this group collectively should change their name to PITA for pain in the a**.  They have some good intentions but to many overly idealistic people with not enough science background or verified fact checking.  also tend to make no attempt at local understanding. this is a group that would push all lake trout and 100% protection of cormorants 

 

Roys Boys I hear you on the why bit coin but the answer is simply thats what can pay the bills right now.  they only way to get any local benefit is really to have the plant running.  if they were to set up the bit coin part without the plant the extra draw of power might be to much for the local infrastructure and the utility company's are likely to take any upgrade costs and translate it directly to the locals so better to avoid that.

 

like anything else there should be requirements to minimize any environmental damage that includes protected intakes and max temps for outflows.  In an ideal world we could rely on our elected officials and our DEC to have our best interest in mind and make decisions accordingly unfortunately we all know that politicians can be unduly influenced by parties that are not part of the group that elected them and often conveniently forget about the best interest of those they are supposed to represent.  

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One of things not mentioned is that there have been more than one huge discharges (e.g. 55,000 plus gals in one of them) of sewage down the Keuka Outlet in the recent past. If more happen and are added to the thermal increase during summer it could upset everything. When you talk about millions of gallons of water being heated even in a lake the size of Seneca it is going to have an impact over time possibly changing the very nature of the lake itself by adding to a changing of the PH level  and photosynthesis rate and amount of time it occurs. The fact that extensive impact studies haven't been carried out is disturbing.

Edited by Sk8man
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The "stream" the water flows from plant discharge to the lake is about 200 yards...

I have more concern over the constant hight temps pouring into the lake long term than I do over fish running the creek being effected. Before the plant first shut down that creek saw insane runs of trout of all species. After shut down it decreased. It has picked up in numbers for sure in my opinion.

Look at last year's lack of rain, the crazy high summer temps and the lake that had 79 to 82 degree water for 3 months on the surface.... This has to have some contributing factors to the increased presence of blue/green algae, no? Or is it still agricultural at fault there?


If someone needs a permit to put a dock in, I would assume there should be higher restrictions for the draw of water from the lake as mentioned numerous times by many, grates, flow controls, water sampling...
I am sure there's any things being done about it, but there's still a great level of concern. The online petitions(I signed), for anti operations, must have not gone very far to combat the expansion of the plant.


Nick

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Man... for a long time now I've been concerned about the power grid (archaic as it is) going down. This looks like one more possibility of it happening. It is amazing that the state regulates about every facet of our private lives but fails to protect our vital resources and things that could really screw us over; all for the sake of big money influence.

This issue is about a lot more than fishing stuff.

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