Sandy as a natural spawning creek?

[LazyRiver585]

 Dismal may not be the word I would choose. I’m not sure what project expectations were but I’ve seen and caught more Atlantic’s in Sandy last fall than I have in the previous 10 years combined. In both frog water and upstream. 2 in one day was a highlight. Separate locations, even. It did something.

[GAMBLER]

14 hours ago, LongLine said:

The fishery on Lake Ontario is very good. Some years fishermen are highly successful and others not as successful, but it's still very good fishing. I've read someplace that it's the #5 top fishing place in the country. 

 

Sturgeon introduced in 2003, are showing good results but are still sparse and highly protected. (No success without Genny pollution reduction efforts.) Lake Trout, first stocked in 1973, would totally crash without continued Lamprey control. (Laker Habitat restoration on the way.)  This is 2026! 

 

Steelhead involved different strains, creel limit changes, etc. Steelhead have been stocked since 1878 and some guys claim they're still scarce, even though they come from the SR. Browns seemed to be going great but recently underwent genetic mixing to reduce domestication. (Wonder why we required getting lures farther away from boats?)  Even invasives (mussels, gobies, fleas etc), with perfect habitat conditions took a few years to become established. (Eradication will require many years, with Mother Nature's help.)

 

To believe Instant gratification with the fishery is possible is a position held only by those who don't know fishery. Look at that video and listen to how current stocking differs from what the Canadians did. Not perfect, but much better results than what our neighbors accomplished. 

 

Don't know if it was true but they say, "Edison found 2,000 ways how NOT to make a light bulb."  Some enjoyed living in the dark. When Wilmont (Canadian Hatchery fame) 1st introduced hatchery raised salmon, many people argued that it would never work and the only way to produce salmon was to keep poachers away from stream breeding grounds. 

re:  https://www.afs-oc.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/AEHM223p305-315Dymond.pdf

I'm glad the nay-sayers were proven wrong.

 

Fishing at all places along the 712-mile southern shore is really good on the lake all year as Kings, Cohoes, Steelhead, Browns and Lakers are available with program changes. But that fishery requires constant monitoring and solving issues.  (VHS, Thiamine, etc.) It often/frequently requires an 18-35 ft boat to go offshore with piloting skills and a keen eye on the sky.

 

Trib fishing is also very good in the fall, evident by the in/out of state crowds.  They may even run into a King, Coho, or Laker immediately after ice-out.  Other than those times, they have Browns with occasional Rainbows and panfish. (Although reports of Atlantics on the SR are increasing.)  Can Lake-O move up on the top fishing place list with even more specie and availability overall? Maybe guides and charters don't want more business opportunity?

 

Federal Habitat Restoration funds are available.  Restoration projects have and are working in other areas. At a 2.6 to 1 ratio, "Lake guys" aren't going to lose anything.

 

For anyone wanting to live in the past...then fine...Let's go back a little further to when tons of Atlantics were speared by fishermen. When Seth Green perfected his rig? (re above link)

 

I'm a "Lake Guy" and not a "lip-ripper" or "snagger" but even I might try losing some lures in a tree or two. 

___________

GLFC, USF&WS, OMNR&F, USGS sponsor Great Lakes Restoration. NYSDEC asks for fishermen input. Without NYSDEC we wouldn't have the lake fishery we have.  They've done tremendous work.

 

Fish you refer to come from state Hatcheries which your "favorite governor" recently authorized $70 million to rebuild and improve. (more reason to bad mouth Hochul?) The fish we're talking are Federal fish. 

 

Read: "Federal H-A-B-I-T-A-T restoration" funds are available.  

 

Sandy is warm now but didn't used to be.  Late 19th century it was explicitly a salmon stream. (Refer to above link. specifically listed on pg 309). Residents, farmers, etc. (no disrespect intended) screwed it up pretty good.  When did you get sewers? When was phosphate fertilizer outlawed? When was the last tree planted along the banks? 

 

Listen to previous posted Video and see that stocking the headwater doesn't work. Thanx for the effort/try. You helped eliminate one method/strategy. 

 

You reported catching a couple Atlantics up stream Sandy. Were you Bullsh[[ing us? 

___________________

 

please re-read the entire post before cherry picking 

 

 

 

 

Tom,

 

Lakers are surviving to adulthood and not dying from thiamine deficiency unlike Atlantics........ With double the amount of lake trout stocked in NY waters, catch rates blow Atlantics out of the water.  Should be double the amount but its way more.  (even coho catch rates are more than double even though stocking numbers are slightly more). Natural reproduction is up slightly.  If the spawning water restoration works, this should improve more.  Lake trout are not the only species that would totally crash if there wasn't lamprey control...... Let's use all the facts not just cherry picking data.  All the cold water species would suffer without lamprey control.    Sandy is warm due to a lot of factors (man being 95% of the issue).  The big one is the Erie canal draining into it through flood gates.  The 12-14' deep canal is swamp water during the summer dumping 24x7 into Sandy.  A lot of the upper stretches of Sandy are tree covered and shaded.  The lower sections are more open, slow and silt bottom.  Another overlooked issue with Atlantics is the condition of the fish stocked.  EVERY Atlantic I have caught in 42 seasons on Lake Ontario has had damaged Dorsal and Pectoral fins.  You want a better outcome, start with a better product.  

 

[HB2]

When I walk through a house with clients to make design and material selection, etc , I tell people what an old time builder told me , put your money where you can see it . In other words , put your money where you get the most from it . In our Fishery , Atlantic Salmon ain't it .

 

We should be pushing for a new hatchery  . 

 

And my tallys 

2 years ago 

A few lake caught 

3 or 4 trib caught 

 

Last year 

10 lake caught ( my son kept tally ) 

1 trib caught . 

 

This year 

Maybe 5 lake caught so far 

3 spring LOC 

And they were good size . 

Edited Wednesday at 07:48 PM by HB2

[LongLine]

Brian 

Yes, LTs not as susceptible to Thiamine issues. Referring to J.D.s posted video (a couple months ago), they also eat Gobies. LTs also live a lot longer and don't grow as fast as salmonids.

 

Yes, Lamprey would greatly damage cold water specie. However historically, overfishing and Lampreys wiped out LT whereas overfishing and pollution are blamed for decimating AS. 

 

The verbiage associated with your chart says yellow blocks are lower than the 10 year average, red are above and green are the same. It's a time period before the current AS Sandy project.  Hmm...LT down in that area yet King the same as 10 yr? King stocking was cut over that 10 yr period but LT stocking has been around 300K for a long time. 

 

We agree on a lot of points however LT restoration has gone on much longer than AS and with more experimentation/research and much greater quantities each year.   It was certainly not "instant gratification." 

 

LT Strains were experimented with up till 2017: (44 years) I believe Seneca based is what is used now (?)

 

 

The first naturally reproduced LT was caught by DEC in 2015. (42 years after initial stocking...refer to 2017 annual report on LT survival.)  Mussels were found in 1990-1993 and 33 years later a project finally put together to improve (hopefully) LT natural reproduction.  

 

As for "damaged" AS you've caught, I haven't seen them,, but I'd venture a guess it from mating/reproduction. They really take a beating. 

 

THE NYSDEC has and continues to do a tremendous job.

 

As for the creek itself, Habitat Restoration projects have been successful in other areas. SR Trestle Pool area has and is undergoing one. (currently in phase 3) NOAA contributed $400K for that one. SR Waterflow control is for restoration. Riparian restoration has been an ongoing project of the SRRC. Will habitat restoration projects help recruitment of AS?...yes.  Will it help other specie?...yes. 

 

Can something be done about canal overflow/drainage?  Canal at Bushnell basin was completely rebuilt a few years back and the system requires continuous repair/maintenance.  Can some of that water be controlled - directed somewhere else?  Would underground springs help cool the water?  Would shaded ice booms help keep the water cooler in spring and help prevent property damage?  Can more active (financial/physical) assistance be enlisted from other agencies? (USF&WS, NOAA, USGS, USACE, GLFC, LOC, NYSCC, etc) 

 

My whole point has been that more work has to be done to establish an Atlantic population. "Instant gratification" won't happen. 

 

________________

 

That's why building codes and inspectors were legislated as well as professional house inspections being highly suggested for home buyers.  I.E. some contractor made it "look good." 

[HB2]

What the heck do lake trout have to do with this ? 

 

Isn't the discussion about Sandy  spawning habitat ?

 

Am I to understand  that what is being suggested is to reroute the entire Sandy Creek watershed for a fish? Thats  freaking insanity . A literal fortune for something that could actually ruin what we now have .Could be an ecological nightmare for fishing and agriculture  . Absolutely no foresight on that proposal . 

 

That's why building codes were legislated ? What's that supposed to mean ? Check me out . I'm as good  as there is in this area at what I do .  My people love me . It's true . And yes ,  I sure do make it look good . 

[Gill-T]

I believe Canadians fin clip their Atlantics 

[GAMBLER]

13 hours ago, LongLine said:

Brian 

Yes, LTs not as susceptible to Thiamine issues. Referring to J.D.s posted video (a couple months ago), they also eat Gobies. LTs also live a lot longer and don't grow as fast as salmonids.

 

Yes, Lamprey would greatly damage cold water specie. However historically, overfishing and Lampreys wiped out LT whereas overfishing and pollution are blamed for decimating AS. 

 

The verbiage associated with your chart says yellow blocks are lower than the 10 year average, red are above and green are the same. It's a time period before the current AS Sandy project.  Hmm...LT down in that area yet King the same as 10 yr? King stocking was cut over that 10 yr period but LT stocking has been around 300K for a long time. 

 

We agree on a lot of points however LT restoration has gone on much longer than AS and with more experimentation/research and much greater quantities each year.   It was certainly not "instant gratification." 

 

LT Strains were experimented with up till 2017: (44 years) I believe Seneca based is what is used now (?)

 

 

The first naturally reproduced LT was caught by DEC in 2015. (42 years after initial stocking...refer to 2017 annual report on LT survival.)  Mussels were found in 1990-1993 and 33 years later a project finally put together to improve (hopefully) LT natural reproduction.  

 

As for "damaged" AS you've caught, I haven't seen them,, but I'd venture a guess it from mating/reproduction. They really take a beating. 

 

THE NYSDEC has and continues to do a tremendous job.

 

As for the creek itself, Habitat Restoration projects have been successful in other areas. SR Trestle Pool area has and is undergoing one. (currently in phase 3) NOAA contributed $400K for that one. SR Waterflow control is for restoration. Riparian restoration has been an ongoing project of the SRRC. Will habitat restoration projects help recruitment of AS?...yes.  Will it help other specie?...yes. 

 

Can something be done about canal overflow/drainage?  Canal at Bushnell basin was completely rebuilt a few years back and the system requires continuous repair/maintenance.  Can some of that water be controlled - directed somewhere else?  Would underground springs help cool the water?  Would shaded ice booms help keep the water cooler in spring and help prevent property damage?  Can more active (financial/physical) assistance be enlisted from other agencies? (USF&WS, NOAA, USGS, USACE, GLFC, LOC, NYSCC, etc) 

 

My whole point has been that more work has to be done to establish an Atlantic population. "Instant gratification" won't happen. 

 

________________

 

That's why building codes and inspectors were legislated as well as professional house inspections being highly suggested for home buyers.  I.E. some contractor made it "look good." 

Tom,

 

Lake trout natural reproduction is on the upswing.  If they restore habitat, it will more than likely increase.   I'm all for them dumping a species that doesn't naturally reproduce as long as the survive enough to benefit the fishery and restore a native species. Dumping Atlantics and have them die because the main food source kills them is an issue.   Lakers may not be naturally reproducing well, but adults aren't dying from an alewife diet like Atlantics.  The numbers of returns show a lot of adult mortality in Atlantics. Between the 200,000+ NY stocks and the numbers Ontario stocks, returns are pitiful.  Multiple year classes of Atlantics should return to spawn and handfuls show up......... Ever wonder why we don't see any monster Atlantics?  Can't grow old if your dinner kills you.

        We both know, lake trout catch rates will be down when king fishing is good.  Atlantic catch rates will be up when more people are king / steelhead and brown fishing than laker fishing.  Cowbells and Gambler Rigs are not an efficient way to catch Atlantics.. In thousands of hours lake trout fishing over the past 40 years, I have never caught an Atlantic lake trout fishing.  Even I haven't fished lake trout much the past 5 years..... When the king fishing is lights out, there is no reason to target them.  King fishing tactics catch some lake trout but it's not a great way to produce numbers.  King tactics will boat Atlantics if they are there to catch. 

        Lamprey, pollution, Alewife, overfishing and loss of spawning habitat are more than likely the causes.  Funny that alewife showed up in Lake Ontario in the 1860's / 1870's and the Atlantics vanished in the 1890's. Coincidence?  See the clip below highlighted in red.  If a baitfish showed up in Lake Ontario that caused thiamine deficiency, would the native fish that had never delt with Thiamine deficiency be susceptible to the thiamine issue?  100%!!!!  Did it single handedly wipeout the Atlantic population?  Probably not but I would bet the farm it had a HUGE impact and sped up the process.  Scientists in the 1800's had no clue about thiamine deficiency.  Scientists found out in 1964 about thiamine deficiency (see below).  They didn't list thiamine deficiency as a cause they didn't have the science back them to prove it.  

     The canal issue is warm water.  Pumping 70+ degree water into the creek all summer will be detrimental to any cold water species that tries to summer over in the creek.  Can anything be done?  Doubtful.  The canal is being used in a positive way for tributaries.  They are releasing more water in the fall so the tribs have more flow.  This will help fish runs when water is low.  Just drilling wells into aquafers is something that would have to be permitted, controlled and regulated.  Draining an underground aquafer just to dump it into a stream to cool the trib probably isn't going to be permitted.  

 

The alewife (Alosa pseudoharengus), a small silver fish native to the Atlantic Ocean, first appeared in Lake Ontario in the 1860s and 1870s. Its arrival was facilitated by human-made canals like the Erie Canal or accidental stocking, combined with the sharp decline of native apex predators that previously kept populations in check. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

 

Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar) once thrived in massive numbers as a native, landlocked freshwater population in Lake Ontario and its tributaries. However, heavy overfishing, severe deforestation, industrial pollution, and the construction of mill dams that blocked vital spawning runs led to their complete extirpation (local extinction) by 1898. [1, 2, 3, 4, 5]

 

thiaminase in alewives in 1964 (via research by R.H. Gnaedinger). However, it was not until 1996 that researchers (such as J.P. Fisher and colleagues) definitively linked a maternal alewife diet to the complete reproductive failure and larval thiamine deficiency (Cayuga syndrome/Early Mortality Syndrome) seen in predator fish. [1, 2]

[rolmops]

What would happen if a high thiamine food is introduced into the food supply (genetically modified alewives)?  
I would not be surprised if with all the gene splicing and some cross referencing with the help of AI there are options like that, that are readily available, but never considered.

[GAMBLER]

3 minutes ago, rolmops said:

What would happen if a high thiamine food is introduced into the food supply (genetically modified alewives)?  
I would not be surprised if with all the gene splicing and some cross referencing with the help of AI there are options like that, that are readily available, but never considered.

If it’s possibly, it would cost money.  Will the powers to be spend it?  That’s the question!

[rolmops]

Just imagine, . There are laboratory introduced strains of sterile male mosquitos that out compete regular male mosquitos, Why not introduce sterile male lamprey that out compete the natural lamprey male?

Or Introduce some cisco genes into alewives causing the alewive population to be carrying more thiamine. 

In other words, instead of trying to solve problems, removing problems, 

The technology required to do this , is probably at least partly available stored in bits and pieces in different laboratories. With a thorough AI assisted search a lot has become possible that we could not even dream about three years ago.

Eliminating causes in always cheaper than forever controlling damage.

If Gator had the right tools to play with this he would probably create 50 pound kings just because it's fun 

Edited Thursday at 12:24 PM by rolmops

[GAMBLER]

5 minutes ago, rolmops said:

Just imagine, . There are laboratory introduced strains of sterile male mosquitos that out compete regular male mosquitos, Why not introduce sterile male lamprey that out compete the natural lamprey male?

Or Introduce some cisco genes into alewives causing the alewive population to be carrying more thiamine. 

In other words, instead of trying to solve problems, removing problems, 

The technology required to do this , is probably at least partly available stored in bits and pieces in different laboratories. With a thorough AI assisted search a lot has become possible that we could not even dream about three years ago.

Eliminating causes in always cheaper than forever controlling damage.

If Gator had the right tools to play with this he would probably create 50 pound kings just because it's fun 

It would have to be done to thousands of alewife. If you do it to a couple alewife, they would get eaten and there goes all your work. Triploid kings are an option that would create bigger kings but that force the DEC to do it with limited staff.  It would make everyone happy.  We could keep the insane numbers we have now and have the legit chance at a 40lb king again.  We don't let Gator play with tools anymore.  He will hurt himself.  Right Keith?  

[LongLine]

Yes, this thread has to do with Sandy as a natural spawning creek.  The consensus is that it won't support Nat Repro (specifically for AS) even though it used to.  Man has screwed up many tribs in the past, including Sandy, as well as the overall fishery. Efforts to establish a fishery have been tremendous. DEC, USGS in association with others deserve a lot of credit.

 

Re-establishment of any specie requires analysis, experimentation and monitoring.  Instant gratification with any animal has never been achievable, anywhere. Lake Trout was offered as a local example as experimentation has been ongoing since stocking began and will continue with Laker Habitat Restoration. (Soon to be undertaken.)  I wish high success with rig sales.

 

Habitat Restoration projects have been successful in NYS (also on the west coast) and are well underway on the SR.  Federal funds are available as NOAA (the weather and mapping guys) chipped in a bunch of money for SR.

 

To interpret questions (note ? marks) about reducing conditions (brought up by other contributors) as "proposals" may indicate someone's reading comprehension skills need improvement. No one proposed "rerouting the entire watershed." Rather the question was asked whether "some...controlled-directed"...elsewhere?"  No need to mis-paraphrase with exaggeration like a politician.

 

To bring up "contracting" in a fishing thread is totally ludicrous!  No one challenged a specific contractor; only that codes & inspectors help protect clients from some that only provide a "look good" job.  (Keywords: "help", "some")

 

To continue pushing for more hatcheries for our existing fishery is lunacy given the care-in-rearing required; predator-prey balance; SR not at capacity; and that Hochul (some's favorite governor) recently approved $70 million for them.

 

It's totally absurd to claim the current experiment (different from past and not complete yet) is a failure and then go back and edit a post with a report of catches in that area.  
______________

Bloater and Cisco have been stocked to augment the food web.
 

[HB2]

My tally shows more lake fish than trib fish . The survey guy said less returns than expected . If the Atlantic's are in the lake , why aren't they running the tribs ?  If it because they prefer something or other , at least one of the lake Ontario  or Canadian tribs should have that and returns should be strong there by the now . Is there some trib that is meeting that expectation ? 

 

LL , you suggest directing canal water to somewhere else . The Holley Falls  Park people would like to talk to you about that . Sandy doesn't need less canal water , it needs more . Take a drive mid summer and see how much water is flowing before the canal water enters the steam . It's a trickle . Without canal water the lower stretches would be hot and  super weed infested stagnant water .  Water might even be warmer . Without the fall slow release. , fall brown fishing during drought years would be a bust . Flow draws fish upstream . And the Atlantic's should be part of that but for the numbers stocked , for some reason they are not . 

I'm against any Atlantic specific improvements or changes to the stream . It's a gem as it is . Only thing it needs is more flow during low water years . Kings , Cohos , Browns and Rainbows run it and do well . Leave well enough alone . It is what it is . The state already screwed up the King fishing there , probably for the Atlantic's that are not meeting expectations.  

 

And why not a new modern Hatchery that could serve all western and central NY . Maybe Walleye , Tiger musky , and  both LO and inland trout . Money better spent . Keep stocking the Atlantic and see what happens . Sandy has great flow this year. It should be a banner  fall trib wise . 

If Atlantic's don't show this year in numbers , they more than likely never will . Stock domestics again , more Browns . Something proven . 

 

And how has man screwed up the overall fishery of LO ? We have some of the best fishing in the world . It ain't 1842 anymore . It's progress . 

 

And Yeah , right about the building inspectors . Give me a break . 

 

 

[GAMBLER]

9 hours ago, HB2 said:

My tally shows more lake fish than trib fish . The survey guy said less returns than expected . If the Atlantic's are in the lake , why aren't they running the tribs ?  If it because they prefer something or other , at least one of the lake Ontario  or Canadian tribs should have that and returns should be strong there by the now . Is there some trib that is meeting that expectation ? 

 

LL , you suggest directing canal water to somewhere else . The Holley Falls  Park people would like to talk to you about that . Sandy doesn't need less canal water , it needs more . Take a drive mid summer and see how much water is flowing before the canal water enters the steam . It's a trickle . Without canal water the lower stretches would be hot and  super weed infested stagnant water .  Water might even be warmer . Without the fall slow release. , fall brown fishing during drought years would be a bust . Flow draws fish upstream . And the Atlantic's should be part of that but for the numbers stocked , for some reason they are not . 

I'm against any Atlantic specific improvements or changes to the stream . It's a gem as it is . Only thing it needs is more flow during low water years . Kings , Cohos , Browns and Rainbows run it and do well . Leave well enough alone . It is what it is . The state already screwed up the King fishing there , probably for the Atlantic's that are not meeting expectations.  

 

And why not a new modern Hatchery that could serve all western and central NY . Maybe Walleye , Tiger musky , and  both LO and inland trout . Money better spent . Keep stocking the Atlantic and see what happens . Sandy has great flow this year. It should be a banner  fall trib wise . 

If Atlantic's don't show this year in numbers , they more than likely never will . Stock domestics again , more Browns . Something proven . 

 

And how has man screwed up the overall fishery of LO ? We have some of the best fishing in the world . It ain't 1842 anymore . It's progress . 

 

And Yeah , right about the building inspectors . Give me a break . 

 

 

Atlantics aren't returning because of adult mortality due to the thiamine issue.  The feds don't supply us with a great product either.  Fin damage on just about every Atlantic I have caught over the years.  Niagara County offered to fund a new hatchery in Niagara county years back.  The DEC killed that idea quickly.  

[fisherdude]

Working on four pages and no solutions from the expertise fisherman I guess Sandy is just going to have to be what Sandy is

[HB2]

2 hours ago, fisherdude said:

Working on four pages and no solutions from the expertise fisherman I guess Sandy is just going to have to be what Sandy is

And that's just fine with me . 

 

Let mother nature do the restoration . 

[rolmops]

My purpose for asking these questions is mostly to create a discussion that hopefully will evolve into finding the right questions to ask. It is not to create bureaucratic efforts to out smart each other from behind a screen. 

Good things were said here. The effect that the Canal has on Sandy , the canal water being very warm, The possibility of cooling the water supply. (I had never even thought of that beyond fantasy).

The success of Canadian natural reproduction, ( What can we do to help that even more)

My own new idea of possibly introducing sterile male lamprey thereby decreasing lamprey reproduction. 

These discussions often repeat old thoughts and ideas, but also new ones that may lead to new solutions. Right now in some universities there is research going on that is looking for answers to these questions and these threads that we create are probably gobbled up by AI units and made available. This helps researchers in finding ideas that may lead to solutions that are way beyond my pay grade. 

We all have ideas about what we want to happen and tickling our imagination and putting it in a thread adds to finding solutions. 

[chinook35]

2 hours ago, rolmops said:

My purpose for asking these questions is mostly to create a discussion that hopefully will evolve into finding the right questions to ask. It is not to create bureaucratic efforts to out smart each other from behind a screen. 

Good things were said here. The effect that the Canal has on Sandy , the canal water being very warm, The possibility of cooling the water supply. (I had never even thought of that beyond fantasy).

The success of Canadian natural reproduction, ( What can we do to help that even more)

My own new idea of possibly introducing sterile male lamprey thereby decreasing lamprey reproduction. 

These discussions often repeat old thoughts and ideas, but also new ones that may lead to new solutions. Right now in some universities there is research going on that is looking for answers to these questions and these threads that we create are probably gobbled up by AI units and made available. This helps researchers in finding ideas that may lead to solutions that are way beyond my pay grade. 

We all have ideas about what we want to happen and tickling our imagination and putting it in a thread adds to finding solutions. 

The sterile male sea lamprey is a reality. It was a segment on dirty jobs  A robotic device injects the liquid chemosterilant bisazir into the body of each male.

the rest of the discussion is above my pay grade and I don’t fish the west end of the lake so I’ll butt out 

 

Edited Friday at 05:02 PM by chinook35

[LongLine]

HB - Are you serious, not knowing how man screwed up the fishery? It's darn good in your lifetime but that's only because in that time organizations have been dedicated to "unscrewing" what man did to the lake and preventing a repeat.  I.E. pollution, habitat destruction, allowing invasive species to enter, all upset the ecological balance. Without those dedicated organizations and ongoing effort there'd be no fishery as we know it.

 

The SR hatchery was opened in 1980 dedicated to the Lake Ontario fishery. Predator-preyfish concerns dictate it's nowhere near capacity.   Disease concerns, cross-contamination, different water supply and expertise concerns dictate those fish be kept totally separate. 

________________

 

As this thread deals with survival and spawning runs (AS) why not hire a fish farmer (like from East coast) to set up a small, protected farm nearshore a trib.  Typical survival of stocked fish by DEC is 10-14%   Farm survival is 80-90%. Survival from mouth stocking better than upstream. Why not stock a nearshore farm with the allotment of yearlings and have him "raise" them for months?  Then simply release them.  Try that for a couple years and see what happens. 

[HB2]

Time marches on LL . It's not the 1800s .  All the phosphorus in the pollution caused the Alwive explosion , and that why we have our current fishery . And the ballasts of the ships with the Zebras cleaned up the lake . And the gobies gave us the best Smallmouth fishing in the world . So things sometimes work out . 

 

Back before Columbus discovered America this area was tree covered and grasslands . FF to now . Miles of roads , parking lots , and farm fields that get blasted by the sun . Then it rains and all that heated up hot water gets drained into the creek . No amount of trees planted will stop that . And how does that work ? Plant a bunch of saplings and close off sections of stream so they don't get trampled and when they do take hold ,they restrict the fisherman to those spots ? All for something that Might work . 

 

Mother nature has done a great job and selected the Atlantic salmon to not be part of the Lake Ontario fishery IMO . Be happy for what we currently have and the species that thrive here . 

Edited 23 hours ago by HB2

[fisherdude]

The l o c fall Derby started is everybody going to be fishing the staging fish in front of Sandy? 

Only 1 salmon on the board from yesturday . Didn't come from the great sandy . East end good old woodys.. 

Edited 21 hours ago by fisherdude
.

[rolmops]

Good for them. 

[LongLine]

Alewives add to phosphorous loading of water. There was no uptick in phosphorous a couple years ago, yet alewife population did uptick. Phosphates and phosphorous are different.  All animal life requires phosphorous. Not suggested that one seasons his food with fertilizer nor drink laundry detergent. Columbus predates Phosphate fertilizer by about 350 years. 

I hope no one is making their Kool-Aid with creek water:

BTW: when did Sandy Creek households get sewers?

 

Sometimes a little research is beneficial as to tree disappearance, including seeing what the Sandy town historian has documented. Mother Nature didn't cut those trees down. (where that sawdust go?)

 

 

Smallmouth fishing is good.  IF you catch one, it'll probably be a trophy. 

 

Closing off a section is just another exaggeration added to fuel emotions. 

 

So yes, Mother Nature has made her selection.  Be happy with resident Browns, an occasional Steelhead and a stray King in the fall. (That's sarcasm) 

 

I support efforts to fully restore the fishery and its improvement. 
 

[chinook35]

42 minutes ago, LongLine said:

Alewives add to phosphorous loading of water. There was no uptick in phosphorous a couple years ago, yet alewife population did uptick. Phosphates and phosphorous are different.  All animal life requires phosphorous. Not suggested that one seasons his food with fertilizer nor drink laundry detergent. Columbus predates Phosphate fertilizer by about 350 years. 

I hope no one is making their Kool-Aid with creek water:

BTW: when did Sandy Creek households get sewers?

 

Sometimes a little research is beneficial as to tree disappearance, including seeing what the Sandy town historian has documented. Mother Nature didn't cut those trees down. (where that sawdust go?)

 

 

Smallmouth fishing is good.  IF you catch one, it'll probably be a trophy. 

 

Closing off a section is just another exaggeration added to fuel emotions. 

 

So yes, Mother Nature has made her selection.  Be happy with resident Browns, an occasional Steelhead and a stray King in the fall. (That's sarcasm) 

 

I support efforts to fully restore the fishery and its improvement. 
 

Here’s an idea :  we could grab some icebergs from the Atlantic. Tow them up the Hudson and over the Erie Canal to Sandy.  The melting berg would cool the water.  That’s as feasible as anything else I’ve heard. We should contact gov Hokie. That sounds like an idea she could get her false teeth into lmao 🤣 

[HB2]

WTF are you even saying ? This is 2026 . A lot of  bad stuff happened between then and now . Bad stuff was dumped in every waterway  . 

Why dwell on the past ? Things are good now . Not perfect but way way  better than they were . 

My God , all the charts and graphs and history ain't going to do a Fn thing . 

 

And don't you remember the piles of dead moon eyes being taken away by backhoes ? From the fertilizers and Laudry detergent . WTF are you talking about? Do you not realize that?  

 

 

Are you saying the Settlers were doing a bad thing by trying to survive. I'm mean really ? Really ? 

 

The trib fishing in Sandy and a lot of tribs can be great at times , and yes I'm happy to have it out my back door . 

 

 

And if they decide to plant saplings along the shore line , from Sept to April , they   more than likely will get trampled with all the traffic . So it wouldn't surprise  me at all if they close portion down . And when they mature , a lot of creek access from shore will be restricted . They want the trees to overhang for spawning . So yes , it will hurt the current access to a great fishery we now have . Thats reality . Another , " it all looks good on paper" stupid idea drawn up from eggheads that sit at a computer screen and dream this crap up to justify their job . . And we have to deal with it . You are grabbing at straws now LL . 

 

Good flow this year from all the rain . Let's see what happens return wise . 

Absolutely no reason we shouldn't have a good Atlantic return .