Rochester fishing

[rolmops]

5 hours ago, GAMBLER said:

Niagara County offered to fund a hatchery years ago and the idea was shut down by the DEC.

The idea that l offered is not a true hatchery, but rather a pen project where the fry is introduced to the creek/river at a very early stage in their lives and the fry would be in these pens much earlier and quite a bit longer than now. This would probably have to be under DEC supervision and with very dedicated volunteers. That way the fry will be properly imprinted on their home stream and that should improve their chances of returning there.

[GAMBLER]

14 hours ago, rolmops said:

The idea that l offered is not a true hatchery, but rather a pen project where the fry is introduced to the creek/river at a very early stage in their lives and the fry would be in these pens much earlier and quite a bit longer than now. This would probably have to be under DEC supervision and with very dedicated volunteers. That way the fry will be properly imprinted on their home stream and that should improve their chances of returning there.

We can't get the fish much earlier due to weather some years.  We had years at Sandy that were there was still snow and ice.  Salmon pens vs. ice chunks or trees coming down the creek would be a disaster for the fishery.

[elrodalonzo]

Pulaski not Pulasky.

[rolmops]

3 hours ago, GAMBLER said:

We can't get the fish much earlier due to weather some years.  We had years at Sandy that were there was still snow and ice.  Salmon pens vs. ice chunks or trees coming down the creek would be a disaster for the fishery.

Gambler , it sounds like you would be open to the idea, while at the same time you point out the difficulties that come with the idea. You rightfully point out the weather factor. To solve it for Sandy would require some bubblers and a few barriers set up in a protected area with easy access. Or, do it only when weather dependent it is feasible. 

Anyway so far, I am only throwing ideas around  hoping that other people , smarter than me, will either pick them up and run with them or come up with better ideas.

 

 

Edited September 30, 2025 by rolmops

[GAMBLER]

52 minutes ago, rolmops said:

Gambler , it sounds like you would be open to the idea, while at the same time you point out the difficulties that come with the idea. You rightfully point out the weather factor. To solve it for Sandy would require some bubblers and a few barriers set up in a protected area with easy access. Or, do it only when weather dependent it is feasible. 

Anyway so far, I am only throwing ideas around  hoping that other people , smarter than me, will either pick them up and run with them or come up with better ideas.

 

 

As a former pen project coordinator, I'm all for more pen time but with it comes many obstacles,  Weather -  Ice and high flows can cause mortality and pen damage.  Man Power - Getting people to volunteer to feed and help is always a challenge.  Sandy we didn't have much of an issue but other projects do.  Rob and I went with automatic feeders which drastically reduced this issue.  The third and biggest hurdle is getting the DEC onboard.  Would it still be early enough to get more salmon to imprint?  A study would have to be done to see if it worked.  Solving it for Sandy is a lost cause.  Our pen project was yanked for kings and will probably never return.  Raising kings at Caledonia would be an easier solution.  Spreading VHS can be controlled by disinfecting the eggs.  Raising kings at two hatcheries would also protect the integrity of the fishery.  If there was a failure at Altmar, Caledonia would have a portion of the kings and we wouldn't lose all our king stocking.  

[HB2]

Took the words right out of my mouth , Brian . 

 

When Kings were raised at Calidonia , every stream with water had fish . They stopped raising Kings at Calidonia , returns dropped significantly . Then the pen projects came about to get better returns to tribs other than the Salmon river . 

 

 So let's quit with the what ifs and build another hatchery to raise kings . And maybe see if that works , because it did before . Also some fishing terrorists decided to destroy Altmar ,or there is a virus there  , or a comet hits it , we are screwed for a while . 

 

Another hatchery could raise more browns , go back to some domestic rainbows that also frequented Sandy  , that we miss , etc . And it hedges our bets if something bad would happen . It's the common sense thing to do . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GAMBLER]

16 minutes ago, HB2 said:

Took the words right out of my mouth , Brian . 

 

When Kings were raised at Calidonia , every stream with water had fish . They stopped raising Kings at Calidonia , returns dropped significantly . Then the pen projects came about to get better returns to tribs other than the Salmon river . 

 

 So let's quit with the what ifs and build another hatchery to raise kings . And maybe see if that works , because it did before . Also some fishing terrorists decided to destroy Altmar ,or there is a virus there  , or a comet hits it , we are screwed for a while . 

 

Another hatchery could raise more browns , go back to some domestic rainbows that also frequented Sandy  , that we miss , etc . And it hedges our bets if something bad would happen . It's the common sense thing to do . 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm all for what is best for the fishery.  This fishery pumps tons of money into the Lake O communities, creates jobs and businesses.  When the season is toast for captains in Late August / Early September, we are not getting the full potential out of the fishery.  Dismal returns make it tough for a captain to fill his schedule after Labor Day.  

[Silver Fox]

On 9/30/2025 at 12:44 PM, GAMBLER said:

I'm all for what is best for the fishery.  This fishery pumps tons of money into the Lake O communities, creates jobs and businesses.  When the season is toast for captains in Late August / Early September, we are not getting the full potential out of the fishery.  Dismal returns make it tough for a captain to fill his schedule after Labor Day.  

Been saying Caledonia for 15 years. When someone at a meeting would bring up Caledonia, you could see the DEC reps completely “check out” while sitting there. They won’t listen. People think they care about what you have to say, but they don’t. They are there to just show their face. They’re gonna do only what they want.

[ifishy]

It's not that they won't listen its that they are tired of repeating themselves to people that won't listen Caledonia will not stock lake o fish it would cross protocols meant to prevent disease spread and thus hurt to many other state waters that are supplied from Caledonia. The current mission of the dec does not involve runs of kings in every creek they are managing for steelhead runs in in tribs and that also helps reduce some of the shenanigans that happen with kings and Concentrates effort In fewer locations making at least a chance for enforcement the dec I doing exactly what they said they would and its driving what they are pushing for 

[Silver Fox]

50 minutes ago, ifishy said:

It's not that they won't listen its that they are tired of repeating themselves to people that won't listen Caledonia will not stock lake o fish it would cross protocols meant to prevent disease spread and thus hurt to many other state waters that are supplied from Caledonia. The current mission of the dec does not involve runs of kings in every creek they are managing for steelhead runs in in tribs and that also helps reduce some of the shenanigans that happen with kings and Concentrates effort In fewer locations making at least a chance for enforcement the dec I doing exactly what they said they would and its driving what they are pushing for 

In general, not just the  Caledonia topic. 

[Gator]

Unfortunately, I see Scott's point - I suspect that most of the DEC personnel who attend these meetings hands are tied by rules that are made behind closed doors by folks higher in the food chain. I'd be bored too, having to sit and listen to the same arguments over and over when I lack the ability to do anything about it. Sometimes towing the company line sucks. And anything that they say in a public forum can be used as ammunition.

 

Engaging the stakeholders certainly doesn't mean appeasing them in any meaningful fashion. 

[GAMBLER]

11 hours ago, ifishy said:

It's not that they won't listen its that they are tired of repeating themselves to people that won't listen Caledonia will not stock lake o fish it would cross protocols meant to prevent disease spread and thus hurt to many other state waters that are supplied from Caledonia. The current mission of the dec does not involve runs of kings in every creek they are managing for steelhead runs in in tribs and that also helps reduce some of the shenanigans that happen with kings and Concentrates effort In fewer locations making at least a chance for enforcement the dec I doing exactly what they said they would and its driving what they are pushing for 

There are ways to sterilize eggs so contamination will not happen........

[Gill-T]

The Niagara fish hatchery was a strange “no”. Not sure if a reason was given as the site work and funding was in place. 

[GAMBLER]

39 minutes ago, Gill-T said:

The Niagara fish hatchery was a strange “no”. Not sure if a reason was given as the site work and funding was in place. 

Very odd.  

[rolmops]

3 hours ago, Gill-T said:

The Niagara fish hatchery was a strange “no”. Not sure if a reason was given as the site work and funding was in place. 

Not so odd If you dig a bit deeper. 

The chemical makeup of the Niagara river is quite different from the Salmon river and because of that the imprinting would be at least as strong as the Salmon river imprinting. 

This would cause more salmon to stay in the west end of the lake and that would potentially hurt the east end fishery and the very much needed tourism along with it. Sometimes local politicians stir this pot in order to direct more income/votes in their own area of influence. I wonder if the private fly fishing Salmon river area would ever have come into being if more salmon would stay near the Niagara river. Pulaski and its imprinting is a big tourism magnet and until the wild spawning started it had a monopoly on the fall salmon fishery..

Edited October 20, 2025 by rolmops

[GAMBLER]

12 hours ago, rolmops said:

Not so odd If you dig a bit deeper. 

The chemical makeup of the Niagara river is quite different from the Salmon river and because of that the imprinting would be at least as strong as the Salmon river imprinting. 

This would cause more salmon to stay in the west end of the lake and that would potentially hurt the east end fishery and the very much needed tourism along with it. Sometimes local politicians stir this pot in order to direct more income/votes in their own area of influence. I wonder if the private fly fishing Salmon river area would ever have come into being if more salmon would stay near the Niagara river. Pulaski and its imprinting is a big tourism magnet and until the wild spawning started it had a monopoly on the fall salmon fishery..

One hatchery and a disease or issue that kills all of our salmon, all the fishing communities on the South Shore will suffer.  Not a smart way to run a multimillion dollar fishery.  

[Gator]

X2

Eggs. Basket. Etc...

[GAMBLER]

19 minutes ago, Gator said:

X2

Eggs. Basket. Etc...

Could you imagine the ramifications?  Lost year class.  Natural reproduction will give us some fish BUT, when that year class spawns, that year class will be smaller.  Add in a low water year and it could be horrible. It's just a horrible way to run a huge business.  

[Gill-T]

I think some of the shareholders tried going the political route to garner support for a Niagara hatchery but to no avail. Perhaps that bear needs to be poked again. Squeaky bearings get their zerks greased 

[ifishy]

There are hatcherys on the north shore so not great for the south shore fall run but means there is no all eggs one basket argument. Yes eggs can be sterilized for some known disease but not any and all anyone who has run any aquaculture can confirm this I have worked in some research sized fish farms and retail sized fish keeping disease spread is not something to take lightly so protocols that are overly strict are a good thing and should not be compromised.  Always have to look at the bigger picture ny is more than just lake o and lake o is more than just ny.  I haven't heard about a niagara hatchery I would love to see the articles I struggle to think that it was shut down by Pulaski tourism but politics can be that dirty 

[Gill-T]

Based on an avid stream angler friend, the Genny had a slug of fish run the river and there are waves of fresh fish near the mouth coming in now. It stands to reason if there is natural reproduction happening on the south shore, the runs would be evolving later into the fall due to long term weather/seasons shifting. 

[GAMBLER]

16 minutes ago, Gill-T said:

Based on an avid stream angler friend, the Genny had a slug of fish run the river and there are waves of fresh fish near the mouth coming in now. It stands to reason if there is natural reproduction happening on the south shore, the runs would be evolving later into the fall due to long term weather/seasons shifting. 

May be true on good spawning tribs but the Genny wouldn't support natural reproduction.  Too much silt covering the eggs.  

[HB2]

7 hours ago, GAMBLER said:

May be true on good spawning tribs but the Genny wouldn't support natural reproduction.  Too much silt covering the eggs.  

 

These kings spawn in glacial runoff streams in Alaska .Which can be very muddy .  

There are spots where there is good current in the Genny , especially south of the veterans bridge. A low water year with green water till the hatch and who knows what could happen . 

 I'm not saying that it's perfect spawning ground but i think there is more than you might think . 

 

[LongLine]

Caledonia produces 90% of the 10 inch Brown Trout stocked across all of NYS from its' on-premises protected broodstock.  Altmar produces all the Kings for Lake Ontario from brood stock returning to the SR. If a virus hit SR lake guys would get hurt.  If a virus hit Caledonia, a lot more streams would get hurt.   (If a comet hit the SR, we wouldn't have to worry, because we wouldn't be here either.)

 

Raising Browns doesn't require the clean cold water that Kings do.  Look at the conditions where Browns vs Kings can thrive.  Browns can tolerate warmer and "dirtier" water than Kings can. Look online at the outdoor and uncovered raceways at Caledonia.  Caledonia get water via gravity from Spring Creek at 5K gallons per minute. Altmar gets water from the SR and pumps from wells at 10k gallons per minute.  That well water is cold and more consistent than the creek water which fluctuates. 

 

King eggs (6-10mm) are larger than Brown eggs. (4-5 mm)  As such the King eggs require more dissolved oxygen in the water for successful development and growth. Dissolved oxygen is regulated by temperature and exposure governed by water flow. 

 

The stocking number is dictated by the international agreement.  If Kings were raised at Caledonia, then Altmar numbers would have to be reduced.  Makes no sense to reduce the numbers from the most capable King hatchery to raise at another hatchery that is not as capable as Altmar is.  It takes a lot more than just throwing some eggs in a tank to raise kings.  It would take a lot more than the few million that the state is going to put into the hatchery system to bring Caledonia "up to snuff."  Additional staff would be required to raise, monitor and logistically support them.  Chances of human error would double with a second hatchery. Moving Browns out of Caledonia would create the same "stress" to other hatcheries that are not as capable as Caledonia is with Browns. 

 

If we want more Kings then we need to lobby the "powers that be" to raise more Kings at Altmar, which they are fully capable of and to change the stocking policy. 

 

BTW, I know 1st hand that a lot of big kings are being caught in the marina pond. 
 

[HB2]

It's not that  we want more kings , it's that after Aug 1  up untill spawning and during spawning runs , we, or at least I , would like to see them more dispersed  to more of the South shore ports . 

LIKE IT USE TO BE !! When Calidonia raised king . And the notion that Calidonia can't do it as well , is ludicrous. The lake was teeming with kings and they were much bigger on avg  back then . But that another story . 

I guess what I have A hard time with  is , they are not even willing to trry . Full well knowing the problems .