But The Fishing Was So Good!

[whaler1]

The tournament fish are no bigger (duh)

 

[HB2]

8 hours ago, whaler1 said:

The tournament fish are no bigger (duh)

 

 

Yes , but they do cull and take the biggest fish they catch . And on good days there are a lot of boats with full boxes . So maybe this does  have an  impact on the biggest of he gene pool returning to spawning grounds or hatchery and has some long term affect .  Fish that never make it back to the streams for the snaggers .. 

[GAMBLER]

11 hours ago, HB2 said:

 

Yes , but they do cull and take the biggest fish they catch . And on good days there are a lot of boats with full boxes . So maybe this does  have an  impact on the biggest of he gene pool returning to spawning grounds or hatchery and has some long term affect .  Fish that never make it back to the streams for the snaggers .. 

This year, I didn't see any boxes full of giant kings........  Most barely broke 20lbs for the tournaments.  Take the Sandy Creek shootout results.  Not one team out of the 40+or- teams weighed in a 5 fish box over 100lbs.  That's not even a 20lb average.  only a couple teams topped 90lbs......

Edited September 25 by GAMBLER

[whaler1]

Fishing pressure during the glory days was significantly higher than it is today. 

[Yankee Troller]

We all have theories but most of us have no science, or science background, to back it up. I haven't seen any worry/concern from the DEC biologist, I assume, becasue catch numbers are great. Personally, I'd feel better knowing someone was trying to study it/run some small experiments to see if there is something that can be done. The Canadians have tried small experiments in recent years where they mixed natural Ganaraska fish with returning Credit River fish by clipping an adipose. A small experiment, but there were people who caught these fish, and most had no clue what they were.

[GAMBLER]

1 hour ago, Yankee Troller said:

We all have theories but most of us have no science, or science background, to back it up. I haven't seen any worry/concern from the DEC biologist, I assume, becasue catch numbers are great. Personally, I'd feel better knowing someone was trying to study it/run some small experiments to see if there is something that can be done. The Canadians have tried small experiments in recent years where they mixed natural Ganaraska fish with returning Credit River fish by clipping an adipose. A small experiment, but there were people who caught these fish, and most had no clue what they were.

Natural reproduction = less fish to be raised = less money the DEC has to spend to have a great fishery.  Making changes = spending more money.......  We all know this state cares more about downstate give aways before upstate outdoor recreation.  

[LongLine]

Frustration would skyrocket with more empty coolers. (lower catch rate) Higher frustration causes less effort and return trips.  Less effort means less fishermen and tells "money people" that expenditures can be better spent elsewhere. 

 

Anyone express concerns/inquires/questions to Sea Grant-Cornell Univ?  Or ESF-Syracuse? Or Tunison? Or SUNY Brockport/Oswego or faculties at other institutions? Or NOAA Fisheries? Or USGS? Or USF&W? 

[Silver Fox]

7 hours ago, whaler1 said:

Fishing pressure during the glory days was significantly higher than it is today. 

During the ESLO days, I counting over 70 boats one morning off Sandy in the spring derby. 20-30 boats deep trying to launch at the oak at times. It’s not even close nowadays. I’d bet there is 2/3 less boats nowadays.

Edited September 25 by Silver Fox

[BRsnow]

We used to launch out of point breeze last two weeks of July. It was never super crazy but lots of boats, but still plenty of space on the lake

[whaler1]

3 hours ago, Silver Fox said:

During the ESLO days, I counting over 70 boats one morning off Sandy in the spring derby. 20-30 boats deep trying to launch at the oak at times. It’s not even close nowadays. I’d bet there is 2/3 less boats nowadays.

Absolutely. East Fork had people camping out.  I’m amazed now when I go out how few people are out there. 

[ifishy]

If the fishery is being driven more and more by natural reproduction than it suggest its an ideal time to experiment lets say 10 percent of the egg take pulled from top 1% of size fish. The goal would be 10% of stocked fish selectively bread for size. Clip or wire tag the fish and see if returning fish show increased size. Potentially the tactic coud maintain the current excellent fishing while also creating  trophy potential im guessing many stakeholders would buy into the experiment and if it works it could be the standard stocking policy. 

Edited September 26 by ifishy

[Silver Fox]

13 hours ago, whaler1 said:

Absolutely. East Fork had people camping out.  I’m amazed now when I go out how few people are out there. 

Which I don’t mind because the driving out there is atrocious the last 5 or so years.

[Silver Fox]

7 hours ago, ifishy said:

If the fishery is being driven more and more by natural reproduction than it suggest its an ideal time to experiment lets say 10 percent of the egg take pulled from top 1% of size fish. The goal would be 10% of stocked fish selectively bread for size. Clip or wire tag the fish and see if returning fish show increased size. Potentially the tactic coud maintain the current excellent fishing while also creating  trophy potential im guessing many stakeholders would buy into the experiment and if it works it could be the standard stocking policy. 

That’s would be great and had been mentioned before by many of us awhile ago, but as usual, it falls on deaf ears. 

[chinook35]

1 hour ago, Silver Fox said:

That’s would be great and had been mentioned before by many of us awhile ago, but as usual, it falls on deaf ears. 

My choice would be to buy several thousand fertilized eggs from a pacific salmon hatchery and stock them in Lake O along with the natural reproduction 

that would refresh the gene pool 

[LongLine]

Kings in the Pacific NW have also undergone size change, even more drastic than ours.  

[BRsnow]

The seem to cycle but overall Lake Michigan fish, especially on the wi side are bigger .They are getting many mid twenties and some over 30lbs in Lake Superior. I am actually going to take trip to Lake Superior after seeing consecutive years of friends with boxes made up of mid twenty to low 30lb kings.

[GAMBLER]

On 9/26/2026 at 10:44 AM, LongLine said:

Kings in the Pacific NW have also undergone size change, even more drastic than ours.  

Many theories on this too.  Biggest fished killed before hitting the spawning grounds, and hatcheries are two theories I have heard.  

[GAMBLER]

On 9/26/2026 at 8:41 AM, chinook35 said:

My choice would be to buy several thousand fertilized eggs from a pacific salmon hatchery and stock them in Lake O along with the natural reproduction 

that would refresh the gene pool 

The DEC does not want to do this.  They do not want to alter the strain of kings in Lake Ontario right now.  The strain we have has adapted to the thiamine issue enough that natural reproduction is flourishing.  I said it before, Triploid kings. It would give us big king sterile kings that wouldn't alter the current genetics, and we could still have numbers of kings to catch.  It's a win win.  

[chinook35]

11 minutes ago, GAMBLER said:

The DEC does not want to do this.  They do not want to alter the strain of kings in Lake Ontario right now.  The strain we have has adapted to the thiamine issue enough that natural reproduction is flourishing.  I said it before, Triploid kings. It would give us big king sterile kings that wouldn't alter the current genetics, and we could still have numbers of kings to catch.  It's a win win.  

The Thiamine deficiency gene would be passed down to future generations of salmon. Maybe diluted, but still there. The gene to spawn at 3-4 years instead of 2,would also be passed down. Introducing new pacific salmon stocks would refresh the gene pool

while maintaining some of the desired genetics. 

[LongLine]

8 hours ago, GAMBLER said:

Many theories on this too.  Biggest fished killed before hitting the spawning grounds, and hatcheries are two theories I have heard.  

Guess you haven't heard about the CDNs putting restrictions on commercial trawling for herring (alewives) in order to increase the food source; or demolishing dams to open up spawning grounds; or river habitat restoration projects; or that King Salmon season was closed for a couple years and is highly restricted or Anchovy Thiaminase studies? 

[LongLine]

"You are what you eat"

 

Thiamine is the fancy name for B1 vitamin.  It doe not "biosynthesize."  I.E. A food containing B1 has to be eaten and then the "eater" has to absorb it.  (Not like vitamin D in humans with sunlight or photosynthesis) Thiaminase is the fancy name for enzymes that break down B1 vitamin, interfere with absorption of B1 and associated with some fatty acids.  Both come from what fish eat. Low B1 level is called "Thiamine Deficiency."  High B1 yields better survival/reproduction success.

 

DEC treats eggs with a B1 bath in hopes that the eggs will absorb it with no thiaminase present. There is no natural immunity from thiaminase, rather if a fish has high B1, then the enzyme will still decrease its B1 level but not to a level where it's detrimental to its health. 

 

Study has shown variation in alewife thiaminase activity in Lake Michigan (https://pubs.usgs.gov/publication/70037235) for unknown reason but diet suggested as a main driver. 

 

As to wild King survival, two thoughts/questions come to my mind:

 

#1: Alewives appear to be eating more sea fleas. Has Alewife Thiaminase content decreased because of this? Hence spawning Kings and their offspring have greater B1 content to start life with? (Perhaps for a couple/few years.)

 

#2: The Alewife biomass has increased in last few years predominately due to high numbers of age 1 & 2 fish. Human health advisories say: "don't eat fish over a certain size due to increased contamination levels."  Does this imply smaller alewife do not contain as high a level of thiaminase as larger ones?  Moreover, if the Kings are forced to eat smaller Alewife (as that's what's available) is their thiaminase content less and B1 level of Kings less diminished? Hence their eggs have greater B1 concentration thus greater survival? 
 

[GAMBLER]

15 hours ago, LongLine said:

Guess you haven't heard about the CDNs putting restrictions on commercial trawling for herring (alewives) in order to increase the food source; or demolishing dams to open up spawning grounds; or river habitat restoration projects; or that King Salmon season was closed for a couple years and is highly restricted or Anchovy Thiaminase studies? 

I have heard those things.  They also stopped a lot of commercial salmon pens in estuaries of rivers.  There was a huge issue with disease and sea lice decimating salmon populations of multiple species of salmon.  A biomass issue on Lake Ontario is not an issue.  The trawls have proven that.  I read on the thiamine issue and levels of Thianamase fluctuate in alewives depending on how stressed they are.  If they are stressed, the levels go up to insure their survival.  Nature is crazy how it works.  Too bad man has screwed a lot of things up for the worse.  

[Gill-T]

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2026/sep/28/atrazine-herbicide-pollution-rivers

[LongLine]

9 hours ago, GAMBLER said:

I have heard those things.  They also stopped a lot of commercial salmon pens in estuaries of rivers.  There was a huge issue with disease and sea lice decimating salmon populations of multiple species of salmon.  A biomass issue on Lake Ontario is not an issue.  The trawls have proven that.  I read on the thiamine issue and levels of Thianamase fluctuate in alewives depending on how stressed they are.  If they are stressed, the levels go up to insure their survival.  Nature is crazy how it works.  Too bad man has screwed a lot of things up for the worse.  

California and Oregon ceased commercial pens many years ago. Washington only allows it in a single Puget Sound estuary but has terminated that company's permit. (Estuary raising beneficial to avoiding lice due to lower salinity and flow.) Issues were more from Atlantic Salmon than Kings.

 

Biomass, when thought of as "tonnage" of Alewife is not an issue. But (referring to the 2025  preyfish assessment) The number of age-1 has exploded whereas the number of older alewives has greatly decreased for a few years now.  Additionally, the "condition" of the Alewife population has also been decreasing for a few years.  Lower "condition" implies less fat & fatty acid from food supply (Fleas) and less thiaminase. Hence predators won't lose as much B1 by eating more age 1 alewife.  (The higher the B1, the greater probability of reproductive success for Kings.) 

 

__________________

Atrazine is not banned in NYS (except Nassau & Suffolk counties) but is a "restricted use" chemical meaning that it's not available to general public and requires special certification to use it. 
 

[GAMBLER]

15 hours ago, LongLine said:

Hence predators won't lose as much B1 by eating more age 1 alewife.  (The higher the B1, the greater probability of reproductive success for Kings.) 

 

__________________

Atrazine is not banned in NYS (except Nassau & Suffolk counties) but is a "restricted use" chemical meaning that it's not available to general public and requires special certification to use it. 
 

Not necessarily true. Their condition has not declined enough to make a huge difference.  Seeing that the average alewife weighed 32.8 grams in 2024, they are not in bad condition compared to the historical weights.  1997 - 2023 the weights were 28.0 grams to 35.9 grams. The 2024 weight puts them just above middle of the road. If kings are eating age 1 alewife, they will have to eat more alewife.  It will all equal out in the wash.    Remember, if alewife are stressed, they carry more thiaminase.  The more they carry, the less have to be eaten by kings to make a difference.  Seeing that their condition is not horrible, I would suspect they aren't too stressed and levels are not too high.