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fatboyjack1

Needing some friendly advise about trolling

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Hello,

 

This is my first post, so I appreciate some patience if I come off as needy or "under-educated".

 

Over the last few years I have had the pleasure of taking a couple charter boats out of the "oak" and have always tried to pay attention to details. Whereas we didn't always have great days on the water, I certainly learned a ton of good information. The problem is that as I get old......I can't remember much. I recall setting the spread looking easy, and finding the fish being a matter of a good fish finder. Now that I am trying to get set up for my trip in June.....it all seems so overwhelming !!!! Here is what I got -

 

1976 Reinell 190 W/ 115 Mercury tower of power.

2 Big Jon manual downriggers (150' of steel line), mounted on transom. 

2 cannon rod holders mounted aft, but in forward of the riggers.

Humminbird 858 HD DI

Two 8# cannonballs.

5 line counter combos. All Okuma magda reels (20's and 30's). One with 5 color, two with 17# mono, 2 with 30# powerpro. Rods range from 7'7" up to 10'.

 

I also have a variety of dipsy's, jets, small walleye boards and bottom bouncing rigs. A multitude of spoons and cranks.

 

My trip is planned for June 13th - June 18th.

 

Will 150' of downrigger line be enough ?

 

I understand 8# balls probably are not sufficient, but I figure I can buy some 10# balls up there if needed.

 

Now my main questions.......

 

Is running 4 rods sufficient ? I don't have room for #5 or #6 without some major work.

 

 Do you run rigger releases right off the balls, or do you recommend some sort of release clipped to the line above the balls ? This release deal has me baffled !! I thought about purchasing some "Scotty Downriggers PowerGrip Plus Release Clip with Self-Locating Snap", but I have no idea how they work.

 

Any help or advise for an early June trip ?

 

Thanks guys !!! Sorry for the long winded post !!!

 

 

 

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#1 150 ft. of cable is enough IMO ; 90 ft. down is usually my max down

#2 8lb. balls will work but will have " blowback " ; how heavy you want to go with manual riggers is up to you.

#3 Which release to use ? will get varied opinions ; I only use OFFSHORE releases since they came out ~ 25 years ago : They clip to the ball with a short cable . Those who "reef" down the rod line complain the line slides off the clamp . I do not like the SCOTTY or the BLACK .

#4 Not sure why you can only run 4 rods on a ? 19 ft. boat. Dipsy divers do get fish but require different setup with wire or braid line. The more line I run the greater chance of a tangled mess which can ruin a good day.

If you want more detail send PM.

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Wow, thank you tuffishooker. The time you spent with your advise is good enough for me without asking too many more details. I don't want be a spoon-fed guy !!

 

  I just looked at the OFFSHORE releases, they look intimidating (lol). I am sure once you actually have them in your hand they are quite easy to figure out. I will do some research on the set-up.

 

 I can probably get two more rod holders mounted to use 6 rods, but I am so paranoid about a massive tangle. There will be 3 of us in the boat, and from my lake Erie experiences, 4 seems to be doable without much frustration. I am not worried about limiting out or anything like that, just an enjoyable few days on the water and hopefully get a fish or two for dinner.

 

I guess I need to research stacking lines on a rigger.

 

Thanks !

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I typically only fish on the finger lakes, so I will leave the more informational posts for the more experienced guys on here.  Your last post you mentioned something about stacking lines on your downrigger.  That is a very good way to cover more water when trolling.  Below I have attached a link to Scotty Power Grip releases.  These are very easy to use, and work very well in my opinion.  You clip one end to the downrigger cable and the other end to your "stacker" line.  I normally run a line right off the downrigger ball, and then my stacker 20' above that (on each downrigger).  Then I will put one downrigger at say 80ft and the other at 70ft.  That way I have lines at 80, 70, 60 (stacker line), and 50 (stacker line).  That way you are covering 40 feet of water.

 

 

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Scotty-Power-Grip-Plus-Release/1703200.uts?Ntk=AllProducts&searchPath=%2Fcatalog%2Fsearch%2F%3FN%3D1000004585%26Ne%3D1000004585%26Ntk%3DAllProducts%26Ntt%3Ddownrigger%2Brelease%26Ntx%3Dmode%252Bmatchallpartial%26WTz_l%3DHeader%253BSearch-All%2BProducts%26WTz_st%3DSearchRefinements%26form_state%3DsearchForm%26search%3Ddownrigger%2Brelease%26searchTypeByFilter%3DAllProducts%26x%3D10%26y%3D6&Ntt=downrigger+release

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I have read the last couple of posts and maybe it's me but the problem I have with using a release off the ball is they tend to not track properly and if your going out of Oak you could run into current issues which might but not always get a tangle here and there. The Roemer and Blacks are good for stacking. My personal preference is the Blacks because it hasn't failed me yet but Roemers are tough to adjust properly. The Scotty's are nice as well for stacking which is what I use when I do stack. Good luck

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For an easy release to use and easy for stacking I would suggest the Chamberlain releases. Ive tried them all, and these are the best. Search back through the postings and you will see these seem to be the most popular release out there right now. Everyone has their preferences, but if you are just starting out, you cant beat their ease of use. You have the standard release that clips to the end of your cable and your ball clips to the bottom of the release, or the stacker models which you can set on your cable above the ball.

 

Good luck!!

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Perfect guys, at least this gives me some release names that I can research. I am a simpleton.....simpler is better for me.

 

So I take it you set your first line on the rigger release, lower the ball "X" amount......and then place you stacker.....then release to the depth you want. Easy Peasy.......lol.  

 

 Does it matter how far your rod holder are spaced for stacking ? I have two holders on my riggers, and another two swivel holders about 4' forward of the riggers (towards the bow).

 

Guppy35....I like the idea of covering 40' of water at once !!!!

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I'd try to pick up 2 more mono rods for 7 total... ***I travel 4 hrs to fish Olcott so I like to have spare equipment---a rod breaks or a reel gets tangled & you lose half your line---that can make tough a potentially great trip!!!

Contrary to many folk's philosophy---I like to put as many lines in the water as possible---then again I do enjoy the tangled mess that occasionally goes with it!!! :)

Releases---I like Blacks.

Balls---I'd stick with 8# if using manual riggers. You just have more blowback to deal with. (Watch your graph to see actual ball depth)

Setup-if possible on your boat I'd eventually add 3 more rod holders--1 on each side and 1 in the center back. This would allow the option of 2 dipsys each side, 1 rigger each back corner, and lead core down the middle. Then again, like I say-I do like that occasional tangled mess! :). You don't have to run them all but you'll have the option once you get comfortable.

On the riggers --if you're running clean spoons (no flasher), consider adding sliders--this is a 4/6ft leader that clips on the fishing line with a spoon---it will slide to the bow in your fishing line (approx. half way down to rigger depth.). If a fish hits it, it will slide and catch on the other lure.

*** IMPORTANT---use good swivels---I like ball bearing sampo brand. A big fish will find the weakest link in your setup...and if you have a $15 dipsy followed by a $7 spoon, a $3 swivel is a small price to pay for added insurance that your $22 worth of gear stays attached.

Sorry for that long winded response...this site has been so helpful to me over the years. It's good to give back!

Have fun on the water and stay safe!

Markmonkey

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Markmonkey1......thank you.

 

 So let me get this straight......a slider is just a 4-'6 leader, one end has another spoon, and the other end has a "snap" of some sorts ? You lower the ball to the desired depth with your initial clean spoon, and once it is set you place the "slider" right on the rigger rod line ? It won't just slide all the way down to the other spoon ? Is the bow in the fishing line created by the blow-back of the ball ?

 

Thanks !!!

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Yes you have it right. The drag created from the line going through the water makes a bow in the line going to your release so when you throw a slider down the mainline I usually stops at that bow. Or they do make snaps now with a rubber coating with a cut in the center so you can clip in anyplace on your mainline where you choose. Both do the same thing when a fish strikes and it slides to the release and pops most of the time

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Markmonkey1......thank you.

 

 So let me get this straight......a slider is just a 4-'6 leader, one end has another spoon, and the other end has a "snap" of some sorts ? You lower the ball to the desired depth with your initial clean spoon, and once it is set you place the "slider" right on the rigger rod line ? It won't just slide all the way down to the other spoon ? Is the bow in the fishing line created by the blow-back of the ball ?

 

Thanks !!!

 

Sorry, read your post wrong.  You have it correct.

Edited by Guppy35

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The slider will ride in the belly of the line and stay there, until it is hit or reeled in. You can also "fix" it in place buy tying a half hitch in a rubber band around the main line.

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 Thanks DJ.......so you essentially turn your "slider" into a "fixed slider" with just a rubber band. Interesting. I'm going to need more spoons....lol.

 

Any advise on how to get my wife to make more money ???? LOL.

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Yes, slider is just 4-6ft of mono with a swivel attached to both ends. I use a larger swivel on the end that attaches to main line (easier to handle) and a smaller swivel at the spoon end. This is an easy way to cover more of the water column and doesn't add any more rods. I always use them if running a clean spoon. Always.

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I would try running a 5th or 6th line.

 

You could try 4 rigger rods (stacked on each rigger, about 20 to 30ft apart).

You could try 4 dipsey divers (setting 1 and 3, starboard and port).

You could try a leadcore or copper, or even leadcore/torpedo off inline planer boards.

 

8# ball will have lots of blowback.  To get down 90 ft, you will need probably all 150 ft of cable out, maybe more, depending on speed and currents.

 

YOU CANNOT TRACK BALL DEPTH WITH YOUR GRAPH. Sorry MarkMonkey1, that is not correct.

The graph tells you how far the ball is away from the transducer, that is not the same thing as depth. If you could hang your weight from your transducer using a string 100 ft long the graph will tell you it's 100 ft deep. Take that string and pull the weight back behind the boat and start swinging it up (blow back), the graph will still tell you it's 100 ft deep, because that's how far the weight is from the transducer. If you want true depth, you need to have a depth measurement device. It won't matter if you only want to get down 40 ft or so, but deeper than that, the blowback makes a huge difference on actual ball depth.

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 I think I am going to rig both downriggers up with 200' of cable before I head up there, and probably get one or two 10 pound balls. I don't think I can get away with 12# balls.

 

 I understand that ball depth is relative as far as distance from the transducer, but that is getting a bit heavy for me. Too much info for one day !!

 

Now I have to head home and mount my other two rod holders :) .....and order more equipment.

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With 8 lbs. weights don't expect to get down 100' I would run minimum 10 lbs. I would invest in 2 dipsy rods you won't regret it. They just plain catch fish

 

3 spin doctors and flies:

Hammer time spin dr. with glow hammer fly

NBK spin dr. and crazy b*tch fly

mountain dew glow crush and Pro/Am UV

Run 2 of these on 2 dipsy setups one on each side of your boat.

 

3 spoons all standard size:

NBK

Green Dolphin

Blue Dolphin

Run 1 on each rigger and another on the leadcore

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With 8 lbs. weights don't expect to get down 100' I would run minimum 10 lbs. I would invest in 2 dipsy rods you won't regret it. They just plain catch fish

 

3 spin doctors and flies:

Hammer time spin dr. with glow hammer fly

NBK spin dr. and crazy b*tch fly

mountain dew glow crush and Pro/Am UV

Run 2 of these on 2 dipsy setups one on each side of your boat.

 

3 spoons all standard size:

NBK

Green Dolphin

Blue Dolphin

Run 1 on each rigger and another on the leadcore

 Wow, thanks Chas0218. Thank you. I do have three dipsy rods, which I usually use on lake Erie. I wasn't sure if the dipsy's would go deep enough. But then again.....I don't know where the fish will be !! I always have them in the boat.....mostly cause I know how to use them well.

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just a thought...these Down East Salty double clamp rod holders work awesome and are reasonably priced. I've used them speed trolling 10" deep diving crankbaits for musky and for wire dipsy's as well.

 

http://down-east.com/website_006.htm

 Nice.....they are reasonably priced. My problem is that the rod holders that are permanently mounted get in the way of my normal bass fishing I do here in NW PA. I hit Erie quite a bit, but usually only run 4 rods with two people aboard. But.....this is family visiting I see once a year, I want to show them a good time. I would love to have another two that remove easy, and are easy on the bank. 

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I wouldn't worry too much about extra lines, 4 rods are plenty and free sliders on the riggers gets you 6 baits in the water.  Not too complicated and relatively tangle free.  We fished 4 rods for a couple of years and boated our share.  Chas has good lure selection for you.  I believe the green dot spinny and dalmation are good choices for the Oak waters as well.  Not sure why no one has brought this up, but June is usually a transition month on Lake O and fishing can be slow.  I'd opt for July, fishing is much better, at least for me.  8 lb balls should be ok too.  Lake shouldn't be too warm then so fish probably wont be super deep.  Plus hand cranking heavier weights will beat you up.

 

Watch the reports section on here.  Yankee Troller and a few others post regularly and fish out of the Oak.  Their reports are spot on and detailed with what is working and where the fish are.  Captains cove and Narby's should also have pretty good current info before your trip.

 

Good luck.

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Fatboy,

   I will be at Oak Orchard (fishing the Open) at the same time you plan to make your trip. I'll be happy to share any info with you. While

my crew and I are by no means experts, if we have any timely tips, etc., I'll be happy to talk to you. You will find the folks at the Oak more

than willing to help a newbie learn the game (although the Open may keep some lips tight).

  We will be docked at the Four C's. White/red Sportcraft 252 "LOMA 2".

 

John

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Fatboy,

   I will be at Oak Orchard (fishing the Open) at the same time you plan to make your trip. I'll be happy to share any info with you. While

my crew and I are by no means experts, if we have any timely tips, etc., I'll be happy to talk to you. You will find the folks at the Oak more

than willing to help a newbie learn the game (although the Open may keep some lips tight).

  We will be docked at the Four C's. White/red Sportcraft 252 "LOMA 2".

 

John

 

Thank you John !!! It amazes me in the last 2 days that so many people have offered to help me out when I arrive up there. I never expected this much support. Especially since I am not local.....or have any clue what I am doing. This is truly a different type of crowd than we get on Lake Erie. Everyone here in NW PA is tight lipped once the walleye start their migration east.  

 

 Not only have you helped me get a good set-up, I have also had some great advise on what not to do.....and how to stay out of the way of the big charter guys. I don't want to affect anyone's paycheck while I am up there.....other than my own !

 

  I usually buy my NY license at Narby's, so I am sure I can ask them for help on lure selection as well. They will be more than happy to take my money, so I think they would give good honest advise.  We will be ataying at "Clean Sweep", cottage #1 I believe. I have stayed there for the last 3 years and always had a good experience.

 

 I knew my selected dates were not "ideal", but sometimes it takes some coordinating to get everyone together. I only see these guys once a year, so this is more about family than it is about fish. BUT.....both would be a cake topper.

 

Take care guys -

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Ditto on the quality terminal tackle ; I only use SAMPO swivels and snaps [ crosslock only ] : Small price to pay for not being " broke-off "

Ps. Dan Keating has great books on big water fishing ; starting with " Keating on Kings " .

PPs. Always check hooks for sharpness !

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The Scotty releases are super easy to use.  Ive never had a problem with one.  And adjusting its tension is as easy as changing how far into the clip you pinch the line.  

 

I use 12lb balls.  But Im also young and in shape.  But it really does help keep the blow back down.

 

when you're out trolling…make sure you throw some turns into your track.  Don't just go in a straight line.  Zig zag a bit.  I can't begin to tell you how many times Ive triggered stikes on the turn.

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