Rochester fishing

[Silver Fox]

On 11/1/2025 at 3:47 AM, HB2 said:

It's not that  we want more kings , it's that after Aug 1  up untill spawning and during spawning runs , we, or at least I , would like to see them more dispersed  to more of the South shore ports . 

LIKE IT USE TO BE !! When Calidonia raised king . And the notion that Calidonia can't do it as well , is ludicrous. The lake was teeming with kings and they were much bigger on avg  back then . But that another story . 

I guess what I have A hard time with  is , they are not even willing to trry . Full well knowing the problems . 

 Bingo

[GAMBLER]

On 11/1/2025 at 3:47 AM, HB2 said:

It's not that  we want more kings , it's that after Aug 1  up untill spawning and during spawning runs , we, or at least I , would like to see them more dispersed  to more of the South shore ports . 

LIKE IT USE TO BE !! When Calidonia raised king . And the notion that Calidonia can't do it as well , is ludicrous. The lake was teeming with kings and they were much bigger on avg  back then . But that another story . 

I guess what I have A hard time with  is , they are not even willing to trry . Full well knowing the problems . 

Right on.  If the kings are truly managed for the lake, we should manage them for the entire lake.  On another note, the Salmon River is a huge natural reproduction tributary.  The kings are managed for the lake yet the DEC allows our breeding stock to get raped and depleted all fall.  If we depend on natural reproduction to sustain a large portion of our lake managed kings, shouldn't we give our breeding stock some protection?  Low water years like this year, kings are easy targets.  The more kings that are roped, the less natural reproduction opportunity we get and the less "lake managed" kings we will have in the system.  

[LongLine]

Issues being brought up in this thread (as I read it) are: (1) "Dismal" fall returns (2) Potentially raising Kings at Caledonia and (3) Stock Kings at more locations, especially from the "Sandy guys." Additionally, increasing numbers of Kings is not a concern. (perhaps that should be the concern)

 

(1) The run was abnormally late this year due to warm water and low flows caused by the drought conditions. They restricted fishing on the SR and increased flow to get broodstock to run. Shore fishing on the Genny improved in the last 2 1/2 weeks as many were caught on the pierheads and in the Marina pond. Hopefully history won't repeat itself from 2007 when warm water caused the major eye-up condition at the hatchery.

 

(2) Caledonia could raise Kings but only with a MAJOR influx of money. It doesn't have the water. (amount, consistent temperature, flow) Additionally, logistics, staffing, expertise, and facilities would get very "interesting" and costly. As increasing stocking number is prohibitive, production at the SR would have to be reduced.  (Which is not ludicrous, it's totally asinine!) Also, where would Caledonia fish be stocked?  Looking at the DEC stocking reports (I only went back to 2008) Caledonia has sporadically produced a very small percentage of Browns for Lake Ontario. None recently and no Kings.  Browns come from Rome. (furunculus resistant)

 

(3) Stocking sites were chosen by looking at survivability and improving the tributary fishery within the 4 zones.  The Genny is within easy reach from Sandy, Braddocks and I-bay. In April 2017, 65k Kings were pen reared at Sandy but had to be released after only 6 days due to water temperature.  (An additional 12k were direct stocked which fed birds.) I'm sure water temperatures at Sandy played a major factor for the Atlantic stocking there as well as trying to establish a summer fishery in the creek.  One has to go pretty deep to catch a Salmon there during the summer, just like the rest of the East/West Central zones does.

 

"LIKE IT USED TO BE"...ahh yes:  when oil had to be added to gas; when Diphoreia was abundant; before Quaggas covered the lake bottom and sea fleas in the pelagic zones; when fish were contaminated with mercury and PCBs;  when alewives covered the shores; before pen rearing and fish were shore stocked every few miles feeding cormorants; when VHS was an issue; when Occidental was polluting the Niagara and Kodak the Genny; when lakeshore homes put raw sewage into the water;  when fall snaggers proliferated stream banks; before the Lakes' thermal regime changed.  AND IMPORTANTLY: when the Canadiens were significantly stocking Kings and we put in over 2 million. 

 

I agree that the broodstock needs more protection, but remember, DEC did close certain sections this year to that end. What was the egg take this year?  

[GAMBLER]

15 hours ago, LongLine said:

 

 

(2) Caledonia could raise Kings but only with a MAJOR influx of money. It doesn't have the water. (amount, consistent temperature, flow) Additionally, logistics, staffing, expertise, and facilities would get very "interesting" and costly. As increasing stocking number is prohibitive, production at the SR would have to be reduced.  (Which is not ludicrous, it's totally asinine!) Also, where would Caledonia fish be stocked?  Looking at the DEC stocking reports (I only went back to 2008) Caledonia has sporadically produced a very small percentage of Browns for Lake Ontario. None recently and no Kings.  Browns come from Rome. (furunculus resistant)

 

 

Caledonia Hatchery has a better water source than the Salmon River.  Spring Creek is a spring fed trout stream that has a more stable water temp.  It has the water.....

[HB2]

15 hours ago, LongLine said:

Issues being brought up in this thread (as I read it) are: (1) "Dismal" fall returns (2) Potentially raising Kings at Caledonia and (3) Stock Kings at more locations, especially from the "Sandy guys." Additionally, increasing numbers of Kings is not a concern. (perhaps that should be the concern)

 

(1) The run was abnormally late this year due to warm water and low flows caused by the drought conditions. They restricted fishing on the SR and increased flow to get broodstock to run. Shore fishing on the Genny improved in the last 2 1/2 weeks as many were caught on the pierheads and in the Marina pond. Hopefully history won't repeat itself from 2007 when warm water caused the major eye-up condition at the hatchery.

 

(2) Caledonia could raise Kings but only with a MAJOR influx of money. It doesn't have the water. (amount, consistent temperature, flow) Additionally, logistics, staffing, expertise, and facilities would get very "interesting" and costly. As increasing stocking number is prohibitive, production at the SR would have to be reduced.  (Which is not ludicrous, it's totally asinine!) Also, where would Caledonia fish be stocked?  Looking at the DEC stocking reports (I only went back to 2008) Caledonia has sporadically produced a very small percentage of Browns for Lake Ontario. None recently and no Kings.  Browns come from Rome. (furunculus resistant)

 

(3) Stocking sites were chosen by looking at survivability and improving the tributary fishery within the 4 zones.  The Genny is within easy reach from Sandy, Braddocks and I-bay. In April 2017, 65k Kings were pen reared at Sandy but had to be released after only 6 days due to water temperature.  (An additional 12k were direct stocked which fed birds.) I'm sure water temperatures at Sandy played a major factor for the Atlantic stocking there as well as trying to establish a summer fishery in the creek.  One has to go pretty deep to catch a Salmon there during the summer, just like the rest of the East/West Central zones does.

 

"LIKE IT USED TO BE"...ahh yes:  when oil had to be added to gas; when Diphoreia was abundant; before Quaggas covered the lake bottom and sea fleas in the pelagic zones; when fish were contaminated with mercury and PCBs;  when alewives covered the shores; before pen rearing and fish were shore stocked every few miles feeding cormorants; when VHS was an issue; when Occidental was polluting the Niagara and Kodak the Genny; when lakeshore homes put raw sewage into the water;  when fall snaggers proliferated stream banks; before the Lakes' thermal regime changed.  AND IMPORTANTLY: when the Canadiens were significantly stocking Kings and we put in over 2 million. 

 

I agree that the broodstock needs more protection, but remember, DEC did close certain sections this year to that end. What was the egg take this year?  

Typical lib BS. 

 

After yesterday , we got bigger fish to fry . 

[rolmops]

9 hours ago, HB2 said:

Typical lib BS. 

 

After yesterday , we got bigger fish to fry . 

That sir, has nothing to do with how the lake is managed.

If you do not like a comment because you suspect a political agenda, then please explain what makes it political and why it is bad.

As for yesterday, if you mean is what I think you mean, I would suggest that you clear your mind and go fishing for browns. I am even willing to tell you where my very sweet November spot is. 

Edited November 5, 2025 by rolmops

[Silver Fox]

23 hours ago, LongLine said:

Issues being brought up in this thread (as I read it) are: (1) "Dismal" fall returns (2) Potentially raising Kings at Caledonia and (3) Stock Kings at more locations, especially from the "Sandy guys." Additionally, increasing numbers of Kings is not a concern. (perhaps that should be the concern)

 

(1) The run was abnormally late this year due to warm water and low flows caused by the drought conditions. They restricted fishing on the SR and increased flow to get broodstock to run. Shore fishing on the Genny improved in the last 2 1/2 weeks as many were caught on the pierheads and in the Marina pond. Hopefully history won't repeat itself from 2007 when warm water caused the major eye-up condition at the hatchery.

 

(2) Caledonia could raise Kings but only with a MAJOR influx of money. It doesn't have the water. (amount, consistent temperature, flow) Additionally, logistics, staffing, expertise, and facilities would get very "interesting" and costly. As increasing stocking number is prohibitive, production at the SR would have to be reduced.  (Which is not ludicrous, it's totally asinine!) Also, where would Caledonia fish be stocked?  Looking at the DEC stocking reports (I only went back to 2008) Caledonia has sporadically produced a very small percentage of Browns for Lake Ontario. None recently and no Kings.  Browns come from Rome. (furunculus resistant)

 

(3) Stocking sites were chosen by looking at survivability and improving the tributary fishery within the 4 zones.  The Genny is within easy reach from Sandy, Braddocks and I-bay. In April 2017, 65k Kings were pen reared at Sandy but had to be released after only 6 days due to water temperature.  (An additional 12k were direct stocked which fed birds.) I'm sure water temperatures at Sandy played a major factor for the Atlantic stocking there as well as trying to establish a summer fishery in the creek.  One has to go pretty deep to catch a Salmon there during the summer, just like the rest of the East/West Central zones does.

 

"LIKE IT USED TO BE"...ahh yes:  when oil had to be added to gas; when Diphoreia was abundant; before Quaggas covered the lake bottom and sea fleas in the pelagic zones; when fish were contaminated with mercury and PCBs;  when alewives covered the shores; before pen rearing and fish were shore stocked every few miles feeding cormorants; when VHS was an issue; when Occidental was polluting the Niagara and Kodak the Genny; when lakeshore homes put raw sewage into the water;  when fall snaggers proliferated stream banks; before the Lakes' thermal regime changed.  AND IMPORTANTLY: when the Canadiens were significantly stocking Kings and we put in over 2 million. 

 

I agree that the broodstock needs more protection, but remember, DEC did close certain sections this year to that end. What was the egg take this year?  

(1) Mature salmon fishing in August/Sept where most of the boats can get to them have sucked the last 2 decades.

 

(2) It’s been done before, figure it out. I’m sure a lot of businesses outside of the east end would appreciate it…

 

[HB2]

18 hours ago, rolmops said:

That sir, has nothing to do with how the lake is managed.

If you do not like a comment because you suspect a political agenda, then please explain what makes it political and why it is bad.

As for yesterday, if you mean is what I think you mean, I would suggest that you clear your mind and go fishing for browns. I am even willing to tell you where my very sweet November spot is. 

Well actually it might . Free everything that was promised has to get paid for somehow . And with the mass exodus of high income people from the state that has been and  more than likely will ecelorate, funding may become a problem . And fish may take a backseat to free groceries rent and whatever . I hope this ideology doesn't spread like COVID to other cities like Buffalo , Rochester ,Portland or Minneapolis etc. But my feeling is it will . 

 

Pure Lib BS 

 

 

When Calidonia stopped raising kings , South shore returns dropped dramatically and the pen protect was initiated to imprint fish to South shore streams instead of the Salmon river . When Calidonia raised kings , good returns , when they stopped  bad . 

 

All the rest of above so called facts are just BS reasonings that don't hold a lot of  water . Looks good  on paper crap . 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2025 by HB2

[rolmops]

Maybe , we can try and make a list of all the things that changed in Lake Ontario and in the water that comes down from Lake Eerie, roughly

since the time that Caledonia stopped doing salmon. Possibly Caledonia itself has nothing to do with the issue at hand, but a combination of other changes may have caused an overall situation to change. 

The DEC probably has long lists of info about changes in the water over the years. Maybe that info needs to be shifted through in order to find trigger points.

For example: Did the quaqua mussel shell building use of calcium lower the PH in certain areas, or did the oxygen content of the water get less. Maybe the overall current  direction from the Niagara river has changed ever so slightly causing the nutrient rich water to go to the center of the lake and not the coast line.

Or, and this is a big one, the quaqua mussel depletes the near shore of nutrients, but the offshore water with its much greater depth remains relatively nutrient rich and as such is more attractive for salmon. during certain time periods.

I'm sure that all the info is there, but I'm not so sure that this info has been used in specific research about movement of biomass.

It may be time to dump  all that info into an AI enabled computer and see what it spits out

Edited November 6, 2025 by rolmops

[GAMBLER]

2 hours ago, rolmops said:

Maybe , we can try and make a list of all the things that changed in Lake Ontario and in the water that comes down from Lake Eerie, roughly

since the time that Caledonia stopped doing salmon. Possibly Caledonia itself has nothing to do with the issue at hand, but a combination of other changes may have caused an overall situation to change. 

The DEC probably has long lists of info about changes in the water over the years. Maybe that info needs to be shifted through in order to find trigger points.

For example: Did the quaqua mussel shell building use of calcium lower the PH in certain areas, or did the oxygen content of the water get less. Maybe the overall current  direction from the Niagara river has changed ever so slightly causing the nutrient rich water to go to the center of the lake and not the coast line.

Or, and this is a big one, the quaqua mussel depletes the near shore of nutrients, but the offshore water with its much greater depth remains relatively nutrient rich and as such is more attractive for salmon. during certain time periods.

I'm sure that all the info is there, but I'm not so sure that this info has been used in specific research about movement of biomass.

It may be time to dump  all that info into an AI enabled computer and see what it spits out

I can tell you the pH of Lake Ontario has not changed much over the years.   It does change throughout the season when temperature changes.   The lowest pH last year was 8.08 in February..  The high was 9.03 in August.  Turbidity on average is way down compared to the 80's.  When I first started here, my boss had the data.  I will see if I can still dig it up in his old files.  

[ifishy]

UIA big factor to consider is the clean water act mussels get a lot of attention but that policy change has done far more to reduce pollution and yes that includes nutrients over the years and it is a cumulative effect the overall carrying capacity of the lake is just less than it was that also means less fish so less overflow from. Prime waters and less kings in the rest of the trib I also call bs on kings only accessible in Aug and Sept there are far more kings close to shore in the spring on the west end than any other time of the year and the are around sandy has access to kings for a huge Utrecht and with modern boats if you can get a mile offshore you can get 5 with good weather and many salmon fisherman have the boats to do it. And smaller boats have trailers go to the fish and if not there are other options Caledonia is not the answer and the cost to others waters would be to high to try it

[Yankee Troller]

If I had to choose, I'd take an abundance of bright Silver Salmon in less than 100' of water during April/May (like we've been seeing in recent years) over deep Salmon in August and rotting September stagers (which are still a lot of fun). Rochester used to be the hub for a good stager bite in the Fall. The lake has changed. Our stocking program has changed. Sometimes, you have to change as well.

 

Before they figure out how to bring back a Fall chew I'd rather see them try to figure out how to get the average weight increased.

[LongLine]

King eggs are larger than Brown Trout eggs.  As such Kings require higher dissolved oxygen water content. Browns require 6 mg/L.  Kings require 8-12 mg/L for development.  Warm water cannot hold the dissolved oxygen that cold water can.

 

The way to expose eggs to more oxygen is to increase the flow of water that they are exposed to.  Caledonia pumps water at 5,000 g/min; the SR at 10,000 g/min.  NOAA measures water flow.  On Spring creek (4 places) the flow over the last month has been 19 to 40 ft3/sec. Pineville (SR) has been around 710 ft3/sec.  Water at the dam on the SR was released this year to make sure returning adults would reach the hatchery. Although the instinct to reproduce is a driver to the run, not being able to breathe would stop the fish short. (Look on u-tube for "spawning salmon" and watch the gill flapping.)

 

As to fish diseases: VHS and Thiamine deficiency are major concerns with raising Kings at the SR.  VHS is a virus transmitted through fish urine and reproductive fluids. Along with treatment, continued flushing of holding pens reduces VHS concern. It disappears above 65F. (Hatcheries must discharge a lot of water. Availability of water allows for greater discharge.) Thiamine issue is a lack of vitamins. (B1) Furunculous is the concern at Caledonia.  It's caused by a water borne bacteria that thrives in water where temperatures, dissolved oxygen and pH vary, overcrowding and stress.  It can be transferred via fish and bird crap but also by sharing contaminated equipment.  I.E. Dip a net in a contaminated tank then use that net in another tank and poof...the 2nd tank has it. (I remember seeing trout in Bass Pro that had those deadly lesions) 

 

Caledonia did initially raise Kings, but the Canadiens were also stocking substantial numbers of Kings.  It was quickly realized that the SR was a much better choice for raising Kings. 

 

The stocking controversy on the west coast is with Pink Salmon. They've basically taken over many rivers in Alaska.  (BTW a 6 Lb Pink was caught on the SR back in late August per the DEC newsletter.)  

 

Additionally, King Salmon size issue is not unique to Lake Ontario.  It's a world wise issue.  According to another DEC newsletter, a 35 Lb King-Coho hybrid was caught this year on the NY side. Initially thought to be a new world record, DEC counted something in its' guts and determined a hybrid. 

[HB2]

The good inshore spring fishing along the entire South shore  usually happens when there is a semi warm winter  and good colored water . Cold black water = bad fishing . It seems under those conditions the majority  of kings are in west end waters, and even that pretty much sucked early on this year .  IMO , it doesn't matter where the kings are stocked till  around Aug 1 . Then the lake flips bad or we get sustained northwest winds and stacks the warm water up and they go offshore and get in the current and they disperse to their respective imprinted streams . Then it does matter where the eggs were hatched  from or are penned . So I would like to see them raise some kings at Calidonia , mark them and see . But even if they did it next year we would not know till 4 years from now . A new hatchery would be awesome but for some reason the state is against it . 

 

We had better bait biomass the last few years and the bigger sizes were up a bit this year , but there were less fish . Agree with LL that the bait may not pack on the pounds they use to . I'm going to wait and see what happens 

 

Side note . 

 

I hooked about 60 to 70 kings and landed about 35 this fall trib  wise . 

3/4 were jacks or 2 year old males .  

Whatever that means . 

 

Edited November 9, 2025 by HB2

[rolmops]

All these 2 year olds spawning over the past few years made me think about other species reproduction systems.

A long time ago I had about a hundred acres of cotton and in order to increase production we would stop irrigating. This caused the plants to start producing flowers.Elephant herds that are under heavy poaching pressure start reproducing at a much younger age. Waterfleas  reproduce by cloning but when the pools start drying up they start producing males and the reproduction changes from cloning to sexual reproduction. 

So what does that have to do with salmon reproducing at a younger age you may ask. 

Most species that feel their survival threatened react by increased reproduction effort which in turn also increases possible mutations and improves the chances of survival of the species by speeding up the reproduction cycle in order to produce a next generation. Could it be that somewhere in our hatchery system, we trigger a similar response? One possibility may be that from a very early age there is an abundance of food available which does not require a lot of effort to get, but upon release into the lake this horn of plenty is no longer there and now the fish have to work a lot harder to feed themselves, often to the point where their survival is at stake. Could this trigger an accelerated sexual maturity response and thereby produce sexually mature fish at a younger age? Is there an alarm going off in the salmon heads?

If all of this makes any sense might there be a way to find out which gene causes this alarm and how it might be deactivated, adding a chemical in the water maybe?

Truth be told, all of this is way above my pay grade, but I want to throw it out there, because maybe somebody who reads this can toy with  it and who knows, there may be a simple solution .

 

Edited November 8, 2025 by rolmops

[ifishy]

A possible contributing factor is that in the lake they are top of the food chain. In the ocean there are orca sharks and others so when gathered in mass bigger fish maybe faster or to big to eat or whatever so they get favored that pressure doesn't exist in the lake in fact its the opposite as fisherman target the bigger fish so 2 year old have a higher survival to spawn rate and over time we get more and more 2 year olds I think I remember an article on growth rates where lake o is some of the faster growth rates I do think there is a good potential study to be done to selectively breed the oldest largest fish and tag the off spring to see if they are more likely to go 3 years.

[LongLine]

Fall returns depend upon where the Kings were imprinted.  i.e. stocked (pens being better than shore or barge stocking) Not on where the eggs came from.   Way back when, the eggs came from Michigan with west coast genetics. Yet returns were observed on the SR.  If returns of Kings are wanted all along the south shore, then there has to be more stocking sites along the south shore. However, nothing is going to change with sites until the Atlantic Salmon experiment is concluded and analyzed. 

 

I agree with Rolmops that preyfish availability and survival stress are playing a major role in the size issue. Even though the biomass of preyfish has increased, way back when the even larger alewife population consisted of a much greater percentage of large (fat) alewife than our current biomass.  The current majority in the biomass is 1-3 yr olds. Back then 5, 6 & 7 yr olds were much more common. Back then the alewife diet was better as there was plenty of Diporeia for them.  Today many are found with sea fleas in their stomachs. 

 

Our US west coasters have been trying to free up rivers for better salmon spawning grounds. (YAY!  good move!)  BUT in addition, the west coast Canadiens have enacted greatly reduced quotas on the commercial herring fishery (A large industry) in hopes of providing greater food supply for the Salmon.  Our alewife biomass seems dependent upon weather. i.e. mild vs cold winters.  DEC has been stocking Ciscos & Bloaters in hopes that our top predators will have an alternate food supply. 

 

 

 

[LongLine]

I think ifishy is somewhat on the right track.  I'm glad to see some salmon tournaments say the first few fish caught count for the box.  i.e. you can't throw back a 10 Lb'r in hopes of catching a 25 Lb'r. 

[Silver Fox]

On 11/6/2025 at 7:56 PM, ifishy said:

UIA big factor to consider is the clean water act mussels get a lot of attention but that policy change has done far more to reduce pollution and yes that includes nutrients over the years and it is a cumulative effect the overall carrying capacity of the lake is just less than it was that also means less fish so less overflow from. Prime waters and less kings in the rest of the trib I also call bs on kings only accessible in Aug and Sept there are far more kings close to shore in the spring on the west end than any other time of the year and the are around sandy has access to kings for a huge Utrecht and with modern boats if you can get a mile offshore you can get 5 with good weather and many salmon fisherman have the boats to do it. And smaller boats have trailers go to the fish and if not there are other options Caledonia is not the answer and the cost to others waters would be to high to try it

1 mile offshore to get salmon in Aug and Sept? Do you fish? Add a 0 to the 1….

[ifishy]

You dont need to be 10 miles offshore all the time and my point was  todays salmon boats can get out there on good weather days reasonably well

[HB2]

There are times when the concentration of kings ( after the lake sets up ) are in 50 to 80 ft of water , let's say inshore , and times  they are offshore, 200 + . 

The biggest determining factor for that is wind direction and intensity, keeping the nice green water the fish stay in close to shore hopefully or pushing it out .   . One day they are in one area and the next day or even a few hrs later they move . There almost always seems to be at least a few on or around inshore structure  . 

 

Some years , the winds are great and good  fishing in certain inshore areas for extended periods from say early June to staging fish . Others , like last year , we had to chase around to find them . Couple that with reduced numbers of fish , unstable winds and we get what we got this last year . All that unstable weather also makes the fish less aggressive  . It was hard till late July to get hits on flashers for me . It was mostly a spoon bite . 

 

 

Edited November 10, 2025 by HB2

[jk1]

Great informative post and especially you "rolmops"  Thanks, a lot to think of......jk

[Gill-T]

I think it is safe to say we are not getting another hatchery any time soon so perhaps the focus in the short term should be on figuring out how to get better imprinting/ numbers with pen projects. Others on this thread have proposed this approach as well. 

[GAMBLER]

There is another solution.  Powder Mill is a privately run hatchery.  Contract out Powder Mill raising a portion of the kings.  This would solve the fear of infecting stocks that go all over the state.  The state contracts out everything else in the state.