Why aren't we back to regular stocking levels?

[Yankee Troller]

I'd like to start out with I was in 100% support of stocking cuts with the information that was provided by the USGS and NYS DEC after the really cold Winters of 13/14 or 14/15 (can't remember which two years they were). 

 

Back then, we had NO North shore trawls. Our assessment boats checked the same transects year in and year out. Since then our baitfish assessment/trawls have expanded to both shorelines, embayment's, and more transects on the South shore. From what I can see, during cold Winters the North shore trawls have been showing more Alewife biomass vs the South Shore. My questions is, could that have been the case during those two cold Winter? We'll never know, but the data seems to line up.

 

Fast forward to this years assessment/trawls, and we show a biomass we haven't seen in sometime.

 

Why isn't bringing the stocking back to our agreed upon numbers on the table? 

[GAMBLER]

Don't we have an agreement with Canada that we can only increase a certain % a year?

[Yankee Troller]

16 minutes ago, GAMBLER said:

Don't we have an agreement with Canada that we can only increase a certain % a year?

 

To my knowledge, the agreement states we can only stock a X amount. That was set a long time ago (pre-cuts).

[King Davy]

I’ll play devils advocate with you Rick. Everybody talks about the early 2000’s fall derby with a number of 40 pound fish on the leader board. From 1993 to that point stocking had been cut in half and while catch numbers faltered sizes increased with the kings we had having much less competition for available bait fish. And as they usually do the alewife continued to bounce back to higher levels several years classes with good sized adults. 
 

The result was bigger salmon eating healthy baitfish and having the banquet table much less busy. So I know you all want lots of big 30+ pound salmon. But that’s not likely to happen any more. So what do you want more of Lots of high teens to mid 20’s fish, or less targets but much bigger adults?

 

When I was guiding from 1979 - 2001 and on the staff for Great Lakes Fisherman magazine I dove into a three year study on kings and temperature. My finding were that most salmon as they do in the pacific and Bering sea favored mid 40’s temperature. In 1989 the last year of my study I put 511 king salmon over the gunnels of my boat with a still big healthy population of alewives and only had two 30 pound plus fish. And never over 35 pounds.

 

After cuts in 1993 I caught more kings in the 30’s from around 1996 till 2001 than all the years before that. While having to work very hard to catch a decent numbers per trip compared to the late 80’s put a rod down and catch a king.

 

So yes DEC and MNR are in partnership of managing the lake for T&S and their number one factor is managing stocking and taking into account the ever growing presence of wild fish in the system all around how much food is in the 

lake. LO is the only Great Lake that hasn’t had a salmon crash in over 50 years. I think us stakeholders have to have confidence in their decisions. They have a very good track record.

[GAMBLER]

6 minutes ago, King Davy said:

I’ll play devils advocate with you Rick. Everybody talks about the early 2000’s fall derby with a number of 40 pound fish on the leader board. From 1993 to that point stocking had been cut in half and while catch numbers faltered sizes increased with the kings we had having much less competition for available bait fish. And as they usually do the alewife continued to bounce back to higher levels several years classes with good sized adults. 
 

The result was bigger salmon eating healthy baitfish and having the banquet table much less busy. So I know you all want lots of big 30+ pound salmon. But that’s not likely to happen any more. So what do you want more of Lots of high teens to mid 20’s fish, or less targets but much bigger adults?

 

When I was guiding from 1979 - 2001 and on the staff for Great Lakes Fisherman magazine I dove into a three year study on kings and temperature. My finding were that most salmon as they do in the pacific and Bering sea favored mid 40’s temperature. In 1989 the last year of my study I put 511 king salmon over the gunnels of my boat with a still big healthy population of alewives and only had two 30 pound plus fish. And never over 35 pounds.

 

After cuts in 1993 I caught more kings in the 30’s from around 1996 till 2001 than all the years before that. While having to work very hard to catch a decent numbers per trip compared to the late 80’s put a rod down and catch a king.

 

So yes DEC and MNR are in partnership of managing the lake for T&S and their number one factor is managing stocking and taking into account the ever growing presence of wild fish in the system all around how much food is in the 

lake. LO is the only Great Lake that hasn’t had a salmon crash in over 50 years. I think us stakeholders have to have confidence in their decisions. They have a very good track record.

Too many alewife is not a good thing for the alewife population.  With lower nutrient levels in the lake, too many mouths to feed in a hard winter will cause huge die offs.  Too much bait and not enough fish stocked makes catching a lot harder and that's not good for charter businesses.  

[GAMBLER]

1 hour ago, Yankee Troller said:

 

To my knowledge, the agreement states we can only stock a X amount. That was set a long time ago (pre-cuts).

I believe there is something in the agreement that when we increase stocking, we can only increase stocking by 10%.  I will see if I can find it.  

[King Davy]

Well there in lies the difficulty of managing the sport fishery for available baitfish. The wild card of wild fish from one year to the next makes it more of a roll of the dice than in the 70’s - mid 90’s when the salmon river got year round base flows with the ferc license in play in on the power company. 
 

And when we talk genetics I believe wild fish who have found good homes in other south shore tribs have the genetics to breed stronger surviving fry and smolts that again have the advantage to hit open water before those streams get too warm. 

[Gill-T]

We all like to play general manager of our sports teams so I will play lake manager and be thinking with the alewife die off this year, I would like to see what the alewife survey shows before agreeing to stocking increases from current level (let’s hope there will be a survey). 

Edited September 23, 2025 by Gill-T

[HB2]

We came of a lights out year last year 

 

This year , not so much but sizes were bigger 

 

What are normal stocking levels ? It seems currently they are on failsafe with that . 

 

We got lots of small kings this year , which we didn't last year , which gives us hope for next year . 

 

On a different note , most of the creek kings I'm getting are jacks and 2 year olds . 

[Yankee Troller]

44 minutes ago, HB2 said:

We came of a lights out year last year 

 

This year , not so much but sizes were bigger 

 

What are normal stocking levels ? It seems currently they are on failsafe with that . 

 

We got lots of small kings this year , which we didn't last year , which gives us hope for next year . 

 

On a different note , most of the creek kings I'm getting are jacks and 2 year olds . 

 

The stocking level we were at prior to the back to back sever winters we experienced in 13/14 or 14/15. Bait-fish assessment showed a drop in biomass after that time period. At that time we weren't trawling Ontario waters. Since then data has shown colder Winters seem to move the biomass into Ontario waters. We also have had a few years of good recruitment in a row and baitfish levels have rebounded. We were told if baitfish biomass rebounded we'd get the stocking cuts back. We're still below those levels and I'm questioning it.

[Gill-T]

Ain’t no jacks in this bunch. Ganaraska on North shore. I know the video is just a snap shot in time but wow those are some healthy looking specimens 

 

 

[Gill-T]

 

[Sk8man]

Man... talk about perseverance. They have always had my respect but that is something!

[fcboats]

I don't know about that.  If I was given an open food tab for 3 - 4 years and was invited to an until death orgy, I'd be pretty motivated myself.

[chinook35]

On 9/23/2025 at 5:46 PM, Gill-T said:

We all like to play general manager of our sports teams so I will play lake manager and be thinking with the alewife die off this year, I would like to see what the alewife survey shows before agreeing to stocking increases from current level (let’s hope there will be a survey). 

 

[chinook35]

The alewife ( mooneye) dieoff  this past summer is reminiscent of the 50’s -60’s and early 70’s , before the salmonid stocking 

my family has owned cottages on both the N and S Sandy ponds   I grew up on Lake Ontario during summers 

back then the alewives would die off EVERY summer and be ankle deep on the shore   We would rake them up and burn them 

Could it be that there is not enough sticking to keep the mooneye population low enough to prevent the annual dieoff ? 

[Earl28]

The hatchery recently disclosed the reason is that they cannot return to previous number.

[Gill-T]

Could pesticides cause two year old salmon to spawn early or Lake Trout die before they reach 40 lbs like they can in glacial shield lakes in Canada?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2026/jan/15/pesticides-shorten-fish-lifespan-study

[GAMBLER]

12 hours ago, Gill-T said:

Could pesticides cause two year old salmon to spawn early or Lake Trout die before they reach 40 lbs like they can in glacial shield lakes in Canada?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2026/jan/15/pesticides-shorten-fish-lifespan-study

My guess on the 40lb lakers would be stress from an Alewife diet, lamprey predation and fishing pressure.  Thiamine deficiency does affect them.  Does it shorten their life?  

[rolmops]

The food supply of alewives is constantly changing because of the gobies and mussels who have their own ups and downs. In how far does the stocking policy of kings take those yearly changes into account?

[Gill-T]

Stocking of kings has always been tied to the alewife survey and the management strategy objective of having a trophy fishery