Sandy as a natural spawning creek?

[Gill-T]

Tom, that creek pollution assessment only makes the case for NOT stocking Atlantics in Sandy. Wasted funds. I am all for stream rehab but fed dollars going to stocking Sandy with Atlantics is still my tax dollars. Put them all in the Salmon River or remove the dam on the Black River or use the other Sandy and S.Sandy creeks North of Salmon River,  anything but putting them in frog water.

[LongLine]

Gill - I think I've stated many times that just stocking AS there won't work unless some forms of Habitat Restoration take place (as noted in other places) and that further experimentation takes place.  I.E. The "powers" need to stop "Half-stepping." 
 
I didn't make the decision to restore native fishes to the Great Lakes.  Kings introduced to reduce alewives.  Sportfishing for them came later.  The recent experiment (30K fingerlings at the mouth) is showing better results than previous experiments. Although it's not yielded "instant gratification."

Some AS Nat Repro has been detected in the SR. (view that video) With the SR restoration project; will it increase to where they out-compete the Kings? (As feared in some places on the west coast with accidental AS farm releases?)  Time will tell.

 

_______________

Chin'35 - It's already been suggested to install ice booms on the creek. 

 

 

[chinook35]

36 minutes ago, LongLine said:

Gill - I think I've stated many times that just stocking AS there won't work unless some forms of Habitat Restoration take place (as noted in other places) and that further experimentation takes place.  I.E. The "powers" need to stop "Half-stepping." 
 
I didn't make the decision to restore native fishes to the Great Lakes.  Kings introduced to reduce alewives.  Sportfishing for them came later.  The recent experiment (30K fingerlings at the mouth) is showing better results than previous experiments. Although it's not yielded "instant gratification."

Some AS Nat Repro has been detected in the SR. (view that video) With the SR restoration project; will it increase to where they out-compete the Kings? (As feared in some places on the west coast with accidental AS farm releases?)  Time will tell.

 

_______________

Chin'35 - It's already been suggested to install ice booms on the creek. 

 

 

I genuinely hope that no one took my post seriously. It was meant as a joke 

I was trying to lighten the load. I know nothing about the western sandy creek. I grew up near the eastern sandy creek and Sandy pond. I have over the years caught a few AS while fishing for kings   They are a beautiful fish   I hope that a way can be found to restore a viable population , but so much has changed in both lake o and its tributaries I don’t hold a lot of optimism 

[GAMBLER]

21 hours ago, Gill-T said:

Tom, that creek pollution assessment only makes the case for NOT stocking Atlantics in Sandy. Wasted funds. I am all for stream rehab but fed dollars going to stocking Sandy with Atlantics is still my tax dollars. Put them all in the Salmon River or remove the dam on the Black River or use the other Sandy and S.Sandy creeks North of Salmon River,  anything but putting them in frog water.

Irondequoit Creek is a trout stream year round.  It's another option but for some reason its overlooked.  Fish can get into Victor and there is tons of gravel and good water year round.  The upper stretches in Victor don't have canal influence.  

[GAMBLER]

I will say it again, stream rehab isn't going to be worth the effort when there is adult mortality due to an alewife diet with Atlantics.  Until Atlantics can evolve and overcome the Thiamine deficiency, rehabbing streams for them will be wasted funds.  It will be good for the species that actually survive to adulthood and return like browns, steelhead, kings and coho.  

[HB2]

The whole dynamic of the Sandy is against AS nat repro . 

 

Warm water . Not really a way to combat that considering all factors in the watershed . 

 

Pollution  . Miles of roads of road salt which is getting more toxic with additives. Fertilizers , pesticides , cleaning agents . Septic leach and cattle manure . Oil , gas , whatever else a modern society uses winds up in the creek . Not really a way to combat that in the watershed . 

 

The first stocks of AS were in 2006 , is that correct ? And they really haven't taken hold anywhere for whatever reason . To catch one lake or stream is an enomoly. By now they should be at least somewhat established somewhere and nat reproducing in some streams that meet their criteria. Is there any of any substance ? 

20 years is hardly instant gratification . 

 

Spend they money elsewhere where it's proven . Keep stocking if you wish . 

[GAMBLER]

32 minutes ago, HB2 said:

The whole dynamic of the Sandy is against AS nat repro . 

 

Warm water . Not really a way to combat that considering all factors in the watershed . 

 

Pollution  . Miles of roads of road salt which is getting more toxic with additives. Fertilizers , pesticides , cleaning agents . Septic leach and cattle manure . Oil , gas , whatever else a modern society uses winds up in the creek . Not really a way to combat that in the watershed . 

 

The first stocks of AS were in 2006 , is that correct ? And they really haven't taken hold anywhere for whatever reason . To catch one lake or stream is an enomoly. By now they should be at least somewhat established somewhere and nat reproducing in some streams that meet their criteria. Is there any of any substance ? 

20 years is hardly instant gratification . 

 

Spend they money elsewhere where it's proven . Keep stocking if you wish . 

Should be established is the key here..  Multiple year classes should be returning unlike kings and coho.  A handful of fish is horrible.  If I was dumping money into my retirement and getting that percentage of a return, I would be putting my investments somewhere else!

[LongLine]

AS gone in 1898, after 68 years of detrimental activity. And some detrimental activity continues still.   20 yrs is instant gratification. (In construction terms, a house can't be built in 1/3 the time it took to demolish one, although modern tools and methods have shortened build time.) "Powers" have been working on LTs for 50 years.  Work continues on all species today after 58 years.  The fishery is very good but no fisherman wants them to shut down hatcheries.

__________

All creek and embayments are warm late spring-summer. USGS monitor says Sandy is currently 68F.

What's the SR look like?

 

Some claim the SR is primarily spring fed.  It's not.  It's fed from the Salmon River reservoir (Redfield) It's the hatchery that draws water from the river AND wells. 

 

 

The SR has had temps up to 84F.  Sandy is pretty cold for at least 9 months. 

 

[HB2]

Can't really compare Lakers to AS 

There was a time they grew faster in LO than anywhere in the world . Because of the huge baitfish biomass . Man there are some monsters out there  . They thrive in LO . 

It certainly didn't take 20 years for everything else they introduced . They thrived after maybe 5 . And still do . 

 

1868 ? A lot of detrimental activity still exists . Like houses , and roads , and schools and hospitals , and industry so people can afford to live. Yeah a lot of detrimental activity . 

 

So , if Sandy is pretty cold for at least 9 months , and they have dumped a bunch of fish at the mouth , why no significant returns ? 

 

We have great king fishing . Why? NYS DEC can't take a whole lot of credit for that . You can thank Mother nature and the Canadian Nat reprodution nobody predicted way back when ,  for that.  See , things sometimes work out . 

 

I guess the AS haven't read all the graphs and charts . 

 

 

[King Davy]

Interesting discussion. There has been several studies on south shore streams since the 70’s to determine what if any have habitat to support natural reproduction of trout and salmon. Just about any south shore trib can and does produce wild  king salmon simply because they hatch and smolt by the following spring early summer, can and do make it to Lake Ontario before high stream temps can kill them. Steelhead. Coho salmon and Atlantic salmon hatched fry live in their natel stream for up to two years. Atlantic salmon many times spend four years in their natel river before smoking and running to the sea or in our case Lake Ontario. 
 

Sandy creek has little to no spring influx except way up to on the west branch of the stream. There truly isn’t nearly enough canopy throughout Sandy to lower summer stream temperatures. With most of it running through agriculture runoff of pesticides fertilizers, and silt along with its high content of shale bottom simply doesn’t add up to high productivity for the species that must survive in the creek for a year or two.

 

Right now DEC is working with powder mill hatchery on an Atlantic salmon program. Irondequoit creek is one of the few south shore streams that has wild reproductive capabilities. We (TU) have been working with region 8 on finding and documenting the budding wild brown trout population. In fact we will be helping them electro fish several Irondequoit creek locations next week Sept 1-3. With the success of wild browns it’s entirely possible to foster a wild population of Atlantic salmon program.

Edited 48 minutes ago by King Davy