Sandy as a natural spawning creek?

[Gill-T]

Tom, that creek pollution assessment only makes the case for NOT stocking Atlantics in Sandy. Wasted funds. I am all for stream rehab but fed dollars going to stocking Sandy with Atlantics is still my tax dollars. Put them all in the Salmon River or remove the dam on the Black River or use the other Sandy and S.Sandy creeks North of Salmon River,  anything but putting them in frog water.

[LongLine]

Gill - I think I've stated many times that just stocking AS there won't work unless some forms of Habitat Restoration take place (as noted in other places) and that further experimentation takes place.  I.E. The "powers" need to stop "Half-stepping." 
 
I didn't make the decision to restore native fishes to the Great Lakes.  Kings introduced to reduce alewives.  Sportfishing for them came later.  The recent experiment (30K fingerlings at the mouth) is showing better results than previous experiments. Although it's not yielded "instant gratification."

Some AS Nat Repro has been detected in the SR. (view that video) With the SR restoration project; will it increase to where they out-compete the Kings? (As feared in some places on the west coast with accidental AS farm releases?)  Time will tell.

 

_______________

Chin'35 - It's already been suggested to install ice booms on the creek. 

 

 

[chinook35]

36 minutes ago, LongLine said:

Gill - I think I've stated many times that just stocking AS there won't work unless some forms of Habitat Restoration take place (as noted in other places) and that further experimentation takes place.  I.E. The "powers" need to stop "Half-stepping." 
 
I didn't make the decision to restore native fishes to the Great Lakes.  Kings introduced to reduce alewives.  Sportfishing for them came later.  The recent experiment (30K fingerlings at the mouth) is showing better results than previous experiments. Although it's not yielded "instant gratification."

Some AS Nat Repro has been detected in the SR. (view that video) With the SR restoration project; will it increase to where they out-compete the Kings? (As feared in some places on the west coast with accidental AS farm releases?)  Time will tell.

 

_______________

Chin'35 - It's already been suggested to install ice booms on the creek. 

 

 

I genuinely hope that no one took my post seriously. It was meant as a joke 

I was trying to lighten the load. I know nothing about the western sandy creek. I grew up near the eastern sandy creek and Sandy pond. I have over the years caught a few AS while fishing for kings   They are a beautiful fish   I hope that a way can be found to restore a viable population , but so much has changed in both lake o and its tributaries I don’t hold a lot of optimism 

[GAMBLER]

21 hours ago, Gill-T said:

Tom, that creek pollution assessment only makes the case for NOT stocking Atlantics in Sandy. Wasted funds. I am all for stream rehab but fed dollars going to stocking Sandy with Atlantics is still my tax dollars. Put them all in the Salmon River or remove the dam on the Black River or use the other Sandy and S.Sandy creeks North of Salmon River,  anything but putting them in frog water.

Irondequoit Creek is a trout stream year round.  It's another option but for some reason its overlooked.  Fish can get into Victor and there is tons of gravel and good water year round.  The upper stretches in Victor don't have canal influence.  

[GAMBLER]

I will say it again, stream rehab isn't going to be worth the effort when there is adult mortality due to an alewife diet with Atlantics.  Until Atlantics can evolve and overcome the Thiamine deficiency, rehabbing streams for them will be wasted funds.  It will be good for the species that actually survive to adulthood and return like browns, steelhead, kings and coho.  

[HB2]

The whole dynamic of the Sandy is against AS nat repro . 

 

Warm water . Not really a way to combat that considering all factors in the watershed . 

 

Pollution  . Miles of roads of road salt which is getting more toxic with additives. Fertilizers , pesticides , cleaning agents . Septic leach and cattle manure . Oil , gas , whatever else a modern society uses winds up in the creek . Not really a way to combat that in the watershed . 

 

The first stocks of AS were in 2006 , is that correct ? And they really haven't taken hold anywhere for whatever reason . To catch one lake or stream is an enomoly. By now they should be at least somewhat established somewhere and nat reproducing in some streams that meet their criteria. Is there any of any substance ? 

20 years is hardly instant gratification . 

 

Spend they money elsewhere where it's proven . Keep stocking if you wish . 

[GAMBLER]

32 minutes ago, HB2 said:

The whole dynamic of the Sandy is against AS nat repro . 

 

Warm water . Not really a way to combat that considering all factors in the watershed . 

 

Pollution  . Miles of roads of road salt which is getting more toxic with additives. Fertilizers , pesticides , cleaning agents . Septic leach and cattle manure . Oil , gas , whatever else a modern society uses winds up in the creek . Not really a way to combat that in the watershed . 

 

The first stocks of AS were in 2006 , is that correct ? And they really haven't taken hold anywhere for whatever reason . To catch one lake or stream is an enomoly. By now they should be at least somewhat established somewhere and nat reproducing in some streams that meet their criteria. Is there any of any substance ? 

20 years is hardly instant gratification . 

 

Spend they money elsewhere where it's proven . Keep stocking if you wish . 

Should be established is the key here..  Multiple year classes should be returning unlike kings and coho.  A handful of fish is horrible.  If I was dumping money into my retirement and getting that percentage of a return, I would be putting my investments somewhere else!

[LongLine]

AS gone in 1898, after 68 years of detrimental activity. And some detrimental activity continues still.   20 yrs is instant gratification. (In construction terms, a house can't be built in 1/3 the time it took to demolish one, although modern tools and methods have shortened build time.) "Powers" have been working on LTs for 50 years.  Work continues on all species today after 58 years.  The fishery is very good but no fisherman wants them to shut down hatcheries.

__________

All creek and embayments are warm late spring-summer. USGS monitor says Sandy is currently 68F.

What's the SR look like?

 

Some claim the SR is primarily spring fed.  It's not.  It's fed from the Salmon River reservoir (Redfield) It's the hatchery that draws water from the river AND wells. 

 

 

The SR has had temps up to 84F.  Sandy is pretty cold for at least 9 months. 

 

[HB2]

Can't really compare Lakers to AS 

There was a time they grew faster in LO than anywhere in the world . Because of the huge baitfish biomass . Man there are some monsters out there  . They thrive in LO . 

It certainly didn't take 20 years for everything else they introduced . They thrived after maybe 5 . And still do . 

 

1868 ? A lot of detrimental activity still exists . Like houses , and roads , and schools and hospitals , and industry so people can afford to live. Yeah a lot of detrimental activity . 

 

So , if Sandy is pretty cold for at least 9 months , and they have dumped a bunch of fish at the mouth , why no significant returns ? 

 

We have great king fishing . Why? NYS DEC can't take a whole lot of credit for that . You can thank Mother nature and the Canadian Nat reprodution nobody predicted way back when ,  for that.  See , things sometimes work out . 

 

I guess the AS haven't read all the graphs and charts . 

 

 

[King Davy]

Interesting discussion. There has been several studies on south shore streams since the 70’s to determine what if any have habitat to support natural reproduction of trout and salmon. Just about any south shore trib can and does produce wild  king salmon simply because they hatch and smolt by the following spring early summer, can and do make it to Lake Ontario before high stream temps can kill them. Steelhead. Coho salmon and Atlantic salmon hatched fry live in their natel stream for up to two years. Atlantic salmon many times spend four years in their natel river before smolting and running to the sea or in our case Lake Ontario. 
 

Sandy creek has little to no spring influx except way up on the west branch of the stream. There truly isn’t nearly enough canopy throughout Sandy to lower summer stream temperatures. With most of it running through agriculture runoff of pesticides fertilizers, and silt along with its high content of shale bottom simply doesn’t add up to high productivity for the species that must survive in the creek for a year or two.

 

Right now DEC is working with powder mill hatchery on an Atlantic salmon program. Irondequoit creek is one of the few south shore streams that has wild reproductive capabilities. We (TU) have been working with region 8 on finding and documenting the budding wild brown trout population. In fact we will be helping them electro fish several Irondequoit creek locations next week Sept 1-3. With the success of wild browns it’s entirely possible to foster a wild population of Atlantic salmon program.

Edited Monday at 11:08 PM by King Davy

[HB2]

Well , I guess this is over . 

[King Davy]

Well HB2 some watersheds just aren’t habitat wise viable especially for species that require cold water for 12 to 24 months. Maybe more research up near the east and west braid of Sandy might open up some opportunities for rehabilitation to promote colder water. On the Credit River in Canada which runs through the GTA the CRA group planted over 250,000 trees up in potential spawning areas and ran a program  that had over 50K homes near that area divert their rain water across their lawns instead of in the sewer system that ultimately silted over spawning gravel in the upper reaches. They lowered the summer water temps by nearly 7 degrees and today have successfully found wild steelhead and Atlantic salmon up there. 
 

Two groups I was involved with planted over 60,000 trees mostly stream bank erosion resistant willows up in the higher natel areas of the Salmon River and today with the base flows in place from the FERC license has promoted wild success for king salmon in the multimillions. But in the annual seining events by DEC lead by Dan Bishop they find wild Atlantic,  steelhead, and coho salmon as well as find lots of those fish in Orwell and trout brook with their spring fed habitat.

[HB2]

Thank you KD . You  confirmed pretty much everything I was saying about Sandy and what was going on at Sandy . 

 

Thanks . 

 

Won't be long ! 

Edited yesterday at 11:11 AM by HB2

[LongLine]

Success with AS at Sandy requires forms of Habitat Restoration. 

____________

HB - Please re read 1st sentence. 

 

AS can be compared to LT, as you just did.  That they (LT) "thrive" indicates no further monitoring, experimentation nor stocking of LT is required. That won't make many guys happy.

 

Don't know where 1868 came from. 1898 (AS extirpated) minus 1830 (sawmills) is 68 yrs. 

 

Detrimental activity: Houses (when were sewers put in?) roads? (Hamlin adopted "Sensible Salting policy) Hospital (Nearest in Brockport) Industry ?(???)  More likely farm run-off, bank erosion, "mud seabed" and lack of sufficient canopy 

 

(Willows planted on SR. Lowered CND summer temps by 7 deg...wow!) 

 

Please re-read 1st sentence.

 

Why no significant AS returns? Only 30,000 yrlngs of nearly equal quantities of 3 strains stocked at mouth. 10-14% stocking survival typical of all Lake fish stocked. (Only one strain of AS treated for Thiamine deficiency. SEB-TT) So 10,000 potentially survived stocking.

 

Not every fish stocked gets caught, otherwise there'd be no runs in the fall.  The 2023 survey interviewed 887 boat trips and reported 1812 Kings caught.  Great results but there were 860,000 stocked in 2022 which means 0.2% of the stocked Kings were caught. (Doesn't include Naturals nor 2021 stocking which would drive that % way down.)

 

What's 0.2% of the 10,000 stocking survivors?  20? (And you caught some.) 
_________

Speaking of Thiamine.  Kings, Cohos, Steelhead, AS and LTs all have Thiamine issues.  ALL Kings are treated for it at SR.  Steelhead require much higher dosage. Only one strain of AS was treated. (Prior experiments didn't treat for it.) Browns don't require it.

 

This recent paper deals with Lake Trout and Thiamine Deficiency: (less than 4 is "BAD."

 

https://sealampreycontrol.org/pubs/fhealth/Thiamine Final report 2025.pdf

 

 Pg 6: "Similarly, in Lake Ontario, all sampled sites included eggs

below the 4 nmol/g threshold, ranging from 13% in Youngstown

to 63% in Hamlin (Figure 3, Table 1)."

 

 

Of the 322.6K LTs stocked in 2023, 161.6K were HPW strain.  HPW are from Huron (Georgian Bay) which have developed a greatly increased resistance to the thiamine issue since that lake lost its alewife population. 

hmmm...Habitat restoration is coming to help LT recruitment. (Why bother? they "thrive" - sarcasm) 

 

 

[HB2]

3 hours ago, LongLine said:

Success with AS at Sandy requires forms of Habitat Restoration. 

____________

HB - Please re read 1st sentence. 

 

AS can be compared to LT, as you just did.  That they (LT) "thrive" indicates no further monitoring, experimentation nor stocking of LT is required. That won't make many guys happy.

 

Don't know where 1868 came from. 1898 (AS extirpated) minus 1830 (sawmills) is 68 yrs. 

 

Detrimental activity: Houses (when were sewers put in?) roads? (Hamlin adopted "Sensible Salting policy) Hospital (Nearest in Brockport) Industry ?(???)  More likely farm run-off, bank erosion, "mud seabed" and lack of sufficient canopy 

 

(Willows planted on SR. Lowered CND summer temps by 7 deg...wow!) 

 

Please re-read 1st sentence.

 

Why no significant AS returns? Only 30,000 yrlngs of nearly equal quantities of 3 strains stocked at mouth. 10-14% stocking survival typical of all Lake fish stocked. (Only one strain of AS treated for Thiamine deficiency. SEB-TT) So 10,000 potentially survived stocking.

 

Not every fish stocked gets caught, otherwise there'd be no runs in the fall.  The 2023 survey interviewed 887 boat trips and reported 1812 Kings caught.  Great results but there were 860,000 stocked in 2022 which means 0.2% of the stocked Kings were caught. (Doesn't include Naturals nor 2021 stocking which would drive that % way down.)

 

What's 0.2% of the 10,000 stocking survivors?  20? (And you caught some.) 
_________

Speaking of Thiamine.  Kings, Cohos, Steelhead, AS and LTs all have Thiamine issues.  ALL Kings are treated for it at SR.  Steelhead require much higher dosage. Only one strain of AS was treated. (Prior experiments didn't treat for it.) Browns don't require it.

 

This recent paper deals with Lake Trout and Thiamine Deficiency: (less than 4 is "BAD."

 

https://sealampreycontrol.org/pubs/fhealth/Thiamine Final report 2025.pdf

 

 Pg 6: "Similarly, in Lake Ontario, all sampled sites included eggs

below the 4 nmol/g threshold, ranging from 13% in Youngstown

to 63% in Hamlin (Figure 3, Table 1)."

 

 

Of the 322.6K LTs stocked in 2023, 161.6K were HPW strain.  HPW are from Huron (Georgian Bay) which have developed a greatly increased resistance to the thiamine issue since that lake lost its alewife population. 

hmmm...Habitat restoration is coming to help LT recruitment. (Why bother? they "thrive" - sarcasm) 

 

 

 

Give it up dude 

[GAMBLER]

12 hours ago, LongLine said:

Success with AS at Sandy requires forms of Habitat Restoration. 

____________

HB - Please re read 1st sentence. 

 

AS can be compared to LT, as you just did.  That they (LT) "thrive" indicates no further monitoring, experimentation nor stocking of LT is required. That won't make many guys happy.

 

Don't know where 1868 came from. 1898 (AS extirpated) minus 1830 (sawmills) is 68 yrs. 

 

Detrimental activity: Houses (when were sewers put in?) roads? (Hamlin adopted "Sensible Salting policy) Hospital (Nearest in Brockport) Industry ?(???)  More likely farm run-off, bank erosion, "mud seabed" and lack of sufficient canopy 

 

(Willows planted on SR. Lowered CND summer temps by 7 deg...wow!) 

 

Please re-read 1st sentence.

 

Why no significant AS returns? Only 30,000 yrlngs of nearly equal quantities of 3 strains stocked at mouth. 10-14% stocking survival typical of all Lake fish stocked. (Only one strain of AS treated for Thiamine deficiency. SEB-TT) So 10,000 potentially survived stocking.

 

Not every fish stocked gets caught, otherwise there'd be no runs in the fall.  The 2023 survey interviewed 887 boat trips and reported 1812 Kings caught.  Great results but there were 860,000 stocked in 2022 which means 0.2% of the stocked Kings were caught. (Doesn't include Naturals nor 2021 stocking which would drive that % way down.)

 

What's 0.2% of the 10,000 stocking survivors?  20? (And you caught some.) 
_________

Speaking of Thiamine.  Kings, Cohos, Steelhead, AS and LTs all have Thiamine issues.  ALL Kings are treated for it at SR.  Steelhead require much higher dosage. Only one strain of AS was treated. (Prior experiments didn't treat for it.) Browns don't require it.

 

This recent paper deals with Lake Trout and Thiamine Deficiency: (less than 4 is "BAD."

 

https://sealampreycontrol.org/pubs/fhealth/Thiamine Final report 2025.pdf

 

 Pg 6: "Similarly, in Lake Ontario, all sampled sites included eggs

below the 4 nmol/g threshold, ranging from 13% in Youngstown

to 63% in Hamlin (Figure 3, Table 1)."

 

 

Of the 322.6K LTs stocked in 2023, 161.6K were HPW strain.  HPW are from Huron (Georgian Bay) which have developed a greatly increased resistance to the thiamine issue since that lake lost its alewife population. 

hmmm...Habitat restoration is coming to help LT recruitment. (Why bother? they "thrive" - sarcasm) 

 

 

Tom,

Multiple year classes of Atlantics should be returning to the tribs.  Look into the numbers stocked on the North shore and the dismal returns of less than 30 fish every year.  Give it up already.  This dead horse is pounded into the ground already.  By the way, how many naturally reproduced kings in the Garnaska and Salmon Rivers treated for the thiamine issue........  Natural reproduction in kings is way up even though thaimine deficiency is an issue.  

[Sk8man]

Here is a 10 pounder that somehow made the grade caught on July 31st. (my buddy holding)  so there are some making it into adulthood anyway.

[GAMBLER]

17 minutes ago, Sk8man said:

Here is a 10 pounder that somehow made the grade caught on July 31st. (my buddy holding)  so there are some making it into adulthood anyway.

Les,

 

Yes some survive but we call them unicorns for a reason.  IT is definitely a stocked fish.  The messed up dorsal fin is a prime example of a crappy product the hatcheries put out.  

Edited 6 hours ago by GAMBLER

[Gill-T]

487 fish have moved up the Ganaraska in the last 7 days. 60 degree water temp. 

[LongLine]

Les - nice fish!

 

Brian - Thiamine treatment is relatively new.  ALL King eggs are now treated. SR started treatment of steelhead in 2014. (which were found to require a higher dosage) Huron crashed in 2004 and LTs have eggs from there have been found to have developed some genetic resistance. (Kings doing it as high numbers of Nat repro occurring???) You expect a small number of treated AS recently stocked to have a population explosion?  Get real! More efforts are required.  You assume fin damage is from stock/birth defects. Same stocked in other lakes without fin damage. Maybe hatchery separates eggs such that only those with potential damage are put into lake??? (Last sentence sarcasm)

 

HB - Your anti-AS sentiment has come through; you don't need to keep harping on it. The proclivity for negativity, exaggeration and repetition is readily observable. 

 

[GAMBLER]

1 hour ago, LongLine said:

Les - nice fish!

 

Brian - Thiamine treatment is relatively new.  ALL King eggs are now treated. SR started treatment of steelhead in 2014. (which were found to require a higher dosage) Huron crashed in 2004 and LTs have eggs from there have been found to have developed some genetic resistance. (Kings doing it as high numbers of Nat repro occurring???) You expect a small number of treated AS recently stocked to have a population explosion?  Get real! More efforts are required.  You assume fin damage is from stock/birth defects. Same stocked in other lakes without fin damage. Maybe hatchery separates eggs such that only those with potential damage are put into lake??? (Last sentence sarcasm)

 

HB - Your anti-AS sentiment has come through; you don't need to keep harping on it. The proclivity for negativity, exaggeration and repetition is readily observable. 

 

Thiamine treatments are not done on natural reproduction fish..........Aren't most of the kings roaming Lake Ontario wild now?   Hatchery fish are treated so they can maximize the survival rate of the limited eggs they take.  

With the number of Atlantics stocked, we should see decent returns but we don't!!! One of us understands that adult mortality in Atlantics is real and causes huge issues with the population.  Compare the number of Atlantics (600,000 lake wide (some years Ontario stocked 625,000 alone making that number 825,000) stocked to the number of coho stocked (625,000).  Compare catch rates of both species and return rates of each species.  Coho blow Atlantics out of the water in both categories.  Coho returns are awesome in the Salmon River and it's only one year class returning to spawn.  Atlantics are stocked in big numbers in the Credit River and only handful return.  There should be big returns seeing that Atlantics should spawn multiple times in their life cycle.  The fin damage on Atlantics has been documented and is caused from crowded federal hatchery raceways.  

[HB2]

2 hours ago, LongLine said:

 

 

HB - Your anti-AS sentiment has come through; you don't need to keep harping on it. The proclivity for negativity, exaggeration and repetition is readily observable. 

 

 

The original post was weather Sandy could support Nat Rep. Then it kind of morphed into this AS debate . 

LL has decided if we can dump a ton of cash and resources into the creek and dramatically change the watershed, it can happen and be what it was back in the early 1800. He has supplied charts and graphs and articles and examples from other parts of the country where habitat restoration has been successful . Some not nearly similar to this but that's beside the point . Highly educated people often make the mistake of trying to think their way through problems without looking at the obvious stuff starring them in the face . 

 Canadian streams ain't Sandy . Anyone with 2 thumbs can see that obvious fact . As luck would have it , I talked to DEC people yesterday and had a good conversation, and they even said Sandy was really not a feasible ( damn it, theres that word again ) option . And I went to A meeting about a high pressure sewer line that eventually dups into Sandy and is now .  But LL knows better, just ask him ,  and he has the charts and graphs and whatever the F  else he can Google   to show it . 

 I'll make you deal LL , I'll drive you out to Altmar as long as I can be the one to introduce you to Chris Legaurd as the one who has all the answers and  is going to solve all the problems of the Fishery he can't  just so I can see the look on his face . 

 

Feel free to correct my spelling and punctuation .

 

 

Edited 1 hour ago by HB2