RUNNIN REBEL

Last DEC Public meeting TONIGHT

72 posts in this topic

6:30--9:00 PM  Tuesday Sept. 27th will be the last public meeting before DEC final decisions to be made mid- October.

 

Town Of Greece  Town Hall    1 Vince Tofany Blvd      long pond rd./ Latta Rd. 14612      Monroe county.

 

All the 4 out of 5 meetings have been sparsely attended so far with 25-40 people total average per meeting, just a hand full of Charter Capts present and even fewer fishery related business totaled at all meetings.  I was present in the Olcott/Lockport-Niagara Co. meeting and I drove 400+ miles roundtrip to the Oshwa/Whitby Canada meeting last week to get the Canadian information/reactions. I will also be at tonight's meeting in Greece NY.   This is your last chance to hear the information presentation  and you can ask Questions yourself. A lot of what is on the internet out there on this subject  feels like last's nites debate. Pick & choose topic-too many different answers.... I hope Rochester meeting can generate enuff interest with a 50 plus attendance tonight and show DEC reps there that the Lake Ontario Fishery has a HUGE economic impact BOTH ways.

 

Hope to see people there.  6:30---9:00 PM

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

Edited by RUNNIN REBEL

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I will be there and hope we can all come together as a group to make a statement.

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I will be unable to attend.  I will be stuck at work.  One thing we need to push is better enforcement on the tribs.  I know it has been mentioned before but it is even more important now that we are getting stocking cuts and have to depend on wild fish more. 

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Jerry please press them on the state of the Salmon River run and potential lack of much natural reproduction this year and the effect on the salmon stocking cut figures.

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I maintain my position. No cut warranted. The proof is in the south shore returns. Intelligent fishing pressure as well as predation from birds, lakers and warm water species is catching up with the Chinook population, thus no cut necessary to achieve reduced predation. Big hatches of alewives coming, and warm, low water for this years potential wild contribution.   

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I'm with Vince :yes:

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I'm with Vince :yes:

Me three! Better year classes of alewife are coming less cold winters now hotter summer water temps equals better alewife spawn and next season we will have back the more salmon preferred 2 and 3 year class bait.

Sent from my SM-N900P using Lake Ontario United mobile app

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Lets not forget how poor the runs were last year!

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What an embarrassing turn out! Anyone fishing Sodus to Oak Orchard should be ashamed if they put 1 post in any of the threads on this board talking about the cuts, and then not showing up to get informed of the situation. Everyone has things to do, but if you care about something you make time. 

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The apparent poor turnout is regrettable but sometimes it is a good idea not to throw stones until you actually know the "position or nature" of the"target".  The ability to post something regarding the issue on here while engaged in other pressing issues or business or unplanned events (like vehicle problems) is very different than arranging to travel  distances in the evening (e.g. older people driving in the dark with f'd up eyesight at night etc.). I'm sure there are many reasons that transcend the stocking issue in people's lives which does in no way diminish the issues involved or the desire to see things turn out right.

Edited by Sk8man

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I did not attend due to my work schedule.  I would have been there if I did not have to work.  I heard a couple grumblings from guys saying why go when we have no say in the matter.  Well, I believe we do.  We talked about laker cuts if they were going to cut kings.  I thought it would never happen and now it sounds like they are going to cut them.  Can someone give a summary of exactly what was talked about?  

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A press release just sent out today by the DEC: I have shortened the important info, (please see below) IN MY HONEST OPINION I do not see this impacting us. Also keep in mind, for 2017- 2019 there will be Zero impact at all.... So with the minimal proposed cut-back (taking into consideration a possibly higher percentage in 2017) We may feel no impact what so ever until the year 2021 if even then !!!

I certainly expected a much higher proposed percentage then below...A great fact to relate to is what we as anglers experienced in 2010 and 2011, the doom and gloom thought disappeared fast those 2 seasons as we had stellar fishing, this with only 800k stocked in 2008

Keep in mind: I know many are fast to blame our DEC for just about everything that has ever gone wrong, but we have had Kings "in the system" to chase for many years, their decisions haven't been bad right along. The ultimate controller is good ole' Mother Nature !!!

DEC info, please read

DEC is considering a 20% reduction in Chinook salmon stocking in 2017 (reduce from 1.76 million to 1.41 million fish), which amounts to a 10% overall reduction when wild Chinook salmon are included. This action would reduce alewife consumption attributable to Chinook salmon by 7.5 million pounds over the period from 2018-2020.

We are also considering a 20% reduction in 2017 lake trout stocking (New York reduction from 500,000 to 400,000 fish)

DEC is proposing to maintain current stocking targets for rainbow trout, brown trout and coho salmon for 2017, is working cooperatively with the OMNRF to ensure consistent management actions on both sides of the lake.

Potential Impacts to the Sportfishery – This stocking reduction is intended to protect the long-term viability of this economically important fishery. Given a 20% reduction in Chinook salmon stocking is actually 10% lake wide reduction (accounting for 50% wild Chinook salmon), the potential impact to the sportfishery is likely minor.

We experienced an unplanned stocking reduction in the past without negative impacts to the sportfishery. Due to reduced Chinook salmon egg collections at the Salmon River Hatchery caused by low water and high water temperatures in 2007, DEC stocked only 799,000 Chinook salmon in the spring of 2008, a 42% reduction (NY/Ontario combined). When these fish reached age 2 in 2010 and age 3 in 2011, they supported excellent Chinook salmon fishing quality.

As anglers experienced in 2014 and 2015, fishing success is much more likely to vary due to spatial distribution of alewife, water temperatures, weather patterns, and wind speed/direction

Quote from Tom allen

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Brian it went pretty much like you would imagine.  They laid out the trawl numbers and how there were two year classes that for all purposes are missing.  They had some number of them in the trawls but the numbers were small enough that they pretty much show as missing in a bar graph.  Therefore they are purposing a 20% cut across the lake reduction in Kings and Lakers.  Actually the numbers are really a 12% cut to Salmon River and a 21.9 to every other port.  They are justifying the salmon river number under the we need to ensure there is enough fish available to get our eggs.  Discussion about the Laker cut pretty much summed it up as they were throwing us a bone.  With Laker growth rates and prey diversity any cuts they do now would have no impact for 5 years.  But since there target laker population is high enough right now they are willing to do it.  But at the first sign the population goes to or below there target they stocking levels go back to original numbers.  King stocking levels will only go back when conditions are right.  Mainly alewife levels are back to "normal".  They also announce current pen numbers are going to stay but any movement of ration between direct stock and pen the pen will count as 2 fish.  Another words if we currently have 100,000 pen kings and 400,000 direct and we want now to have another 100,00 added to pen that means they remove 200,000 fish from direct stock for that move.  They also stated that as they are wrapping up pen study that they believe that pen fish and direct stock fish are equal in there homing of there stocked streams.   Or conversely the stray of the pen fish and direct stocks to other stream and rivers than where they were release is equal.  

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I'm a privy to the Spring Seining projects on the Salmon River. The 2016 results are the highest success rate of hatched out fry EVER recorded. Fran Verdoliva and Dan Bishop start this process in late April and run it down river to the mouth of the river until early June. Last year we had perfect conditions for spawning, Base Flows were consistent throughout the winter when these eggs hatch( Jan early Feb) . The base flows were kept to standard throughout the spring allowing this huge hatch to matriculate it's way to the open waters of LO. Of course in the open waters environment it's all on them to survive.

 

So while we have a stocking reduction, we had the very best success of wild fish reproduction. High Water events are much more harmful to this success washing out Reds then lower stable flows. I know that DEC CO's have been alerted due to low water conditions to where more "bad things" happen with anglers...to have a strong presence on the Salmon River.

 

I was there last night. My impression is DEC presented their case very well. The other thing I think I witnessed that many in the audience heard about data USGS and DEC is collecting that many stakeholders were unaware of. And they even talked about future studies they are doing, and many of them relate to the health and the understanding of King Salmon traits in LO. The banter was fun and interesting not condescending and for me was one very best meetings I've attended.

 

I believe they know the science and are following their management processes to include what False positives they might encounter.

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Very poor turnout. This was one of the best/informative meetings I been to (mostly charter Capt's there) I get some people not being able to make 1 meeting, When the majority of people can't make any of 5 meetings......AND you have a vested Interest and/or Passion in this fishery,

 

Brian G talk to Capt James Piano, he really questioned the Lake trout cuts.  Cutting %20 of Canadian laker stocks also (eliminating the entire Mitch-McCotton ? brood all together, Really.....Because we pressured them into this one. .Laker predation on alewife's from Port Dalhoise to Bay of Quinte is that bad ? This is a 5 year (when Lake Trout are big enuff to catch) to 15 year  Lag time to recovery each year of Lake Trout cuts. East end of Lake Ontario very divided on this issue. There are no more Lake trout in this lake now than in the early 90's and early 2000's. Lake trout gill netting abundance just finished up on the lake now. I will give LT #'s when I can.

 

Hatchery Reservoir water may run dry by Oct. (Power Company mentioned) NEW problem

****Getting CANADIAN Eggs from natural/wild salmon from Ganaraska as a plan B to hatch at Altmar (VERY GOOD possibility this year)

Fall Bait Trawls giving early heads up on what's there. INTERESTING question/answers on gizzard Shad. WE are going on bait trawls & Acoustic trawls to see ourselves what & how this works.

GREAT new discussion on Lamprey marks on -Kings-Bows-Most Brown's #12+++ ETC....Bottom trawls for dead fish/Lamprey kills

 

Dave Agness gave great perspective's/experience with All naturals in US / Canadian streams (Atlantics & Rainbows & Kings)

 He is seeing silver King runs LATE FALL in Genesee when trout fishing there.

 

Lake Ontario is EVOLVING....Less if any staging anymore, Kings no where to be found in lake or river mouths..THEN during 1 nite they run HEAVEY

EXAMPLE: Genesee river TERRIBLE KING fishing 2 days ago... Now more kings caught than probably  all Sept. (9 boats fishing river mouth this AM) & Heavy run up to/into falls.

Kings are running later in the years now.

Botulism..Why dead seagulls but no  Commorants

Commorants. Yes native to the USA &  NY State Officials lost the right to control them by law from the Feds

Only %15 boat creel data show limit catches now for Kings===an increase in King limits not warranted.

 

 

 

Last nite was non-stop Questions /answers until we had to leave a public Town Hall that closed at 9PM... Honestly tons more information at this meeting...................The back and forth questions was the best I have seen at  many meetings (Even with Capt Bob & Capt Sam leading Many directions ) !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

BIG thanks to DEC personnel & The people who made the efforts to gather information during these meetings

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

 

The SCIENCE presented there was PROMISING from what they see on bottom cameras going in/out of nets to GPS salmon radio tags....Possible help funding GPS tags coming from the general public and with the help from us catching 2 year old salmon for the study.

Edited by RUNNIN REBEL

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Very poor turnout. This was one of the best/informative meetings I been to (mostly charter Capt's there) I get some people not being able to make 1 meeting, When the majority of people can't make any of 5 meetings......AND you have a vested Interest and/or Passion in this fishery,

 

Brian G talk to Capt James Piano, he really questioned the Lake trout cuts.  Cutting %20 of Canadian laker stocks also (eliminating the entire Mitch-McCotton ? brood all together, Really.....Because we pressured them into this one. .Laker predation on alewife's from Port Dalhoise to Bay of Quinte is that bad ? This is a 5 year (when Lake Trout are big enuff to catch) to 15 year  Lag time to recovery each year of Lake Trout cuts. East end of Lake Ontario very divided on this issue. There are no more Lake trout in this lake now than in the early 90's and early 2000's. Lake trout gill netting abundance just finished up on the lake now. I will give LT #'s when I can.

 

Hatchery Reservoir water may run dry by Oct. (Power Company mentioned) NEW problem

****Getting CANADIAN Eggs from natural/wild salmon from Ganaraska as a plan B to hatch at Altmar (VERY GOOD possibility this year)

Fall Bait Trawls giving early heads up on what's there. INTERESTING question/answers on gizzard Shad. WE are going on bait trawls & Acoustic trawls to see ourselves what & how this works.

GREAT new discussion on Lamprey marks on -Kings-Bows-Most Brown's #12+++ ETC....Bottom trawls for dead fish/Lamprey kills

 

Dave Agness gave great perspective's/experience with All naturals in US / Canadian streams (Atlantics & Rainbows & Kings)

 He is seeing silver King runs LATE FALL in Genesee when trout fishing there.

 

Lake Ontario is EVOLVING.... Kings no where to be found in lake or river mouths..THEN during 1 nite they run HEAVEY

EXAMPLE: Genesee river TERRIBLE KING fishing 2 days ago... Now more kings caught than probably  all Sept. (9 boats fishing river mouth this AM) & Heavy run up to/into falls.

Kings are running later in the years now.

Botulism..Why dead seagulls but no  Commorants

Commorants. Yes native to the USA &  NY State Officials lost the right to control them by law from the Feds

Only %15 boat creel data show limit catches now for Kings===an increase in King limits not warranted.

Last nite was non-stop Questions /answers until we had to leave a public Town Hall that closed at 9PM... Honestly tons more information at this meeting...................

 

BIG thanks to DEC personnel & The people who made the efforts to gather information during these meetings

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

The laker cuts make sense to me.  The adult population is very high and can do a ton of damage.  The Canadians do not fish them and they are stocked with very few getting culled out.  The kings get boxed and we keep their population in check for the most part. 

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Jerry maybe I misunderstood about the eggs from Canada.  They are asking Canada to take extra eggs in case we need them but from what I heard they are not overly eager to actually take them unless they absolutely need to.  They talked about the fact that for legal / regulation reasons we cannot directly give Canadians our eggs and while we can take theirs, it is a regulatory headache.  So my understanding is that things have to be pretty bad on our side of collection / eye up for them to want to go through the hoops to get those eggs.  So while I would love to see those Canadian eggs in injected in to our stocking I was under the impression the chances were fairly low in the big scheme.

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Brian one point they made last night about the lakers is if they see the very large lakers being taken of the out system big numbers they most certainly expand laker stocking.  There whole target number system is based on larger female they get in netting studies.  They loose the mature females then they up laker stocking to make up for that production.  They say if we want laker population removed through keeping fish that we would be more effective in catching the smaller ones so we don't trigger their stocking "alarms"

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Brian one point they made last night about the lakers is if they see the very large lakers being taken of the out system big numbers they most certainly expand laker stocking.  There whole target number system is based on larger female they get in netting studies.  They loose the mature females then they up laker stocking to make up for that production.  They say if we want laker population removed through keeping fish that we would be more effective in catching the smaller ones so we don't trigger their stocking "alarms"

They need to put the 25" - 30' slot back to keeping NONE in that range.  Slots are for protecting prime spawners.  The keep one in the sot is stupid.  Why have a slot at all. 

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Pvelk : I am checking on the Canadian natural Kings egg take this year as a plan B.  Checking witn DEC personal (biologist & Hatchery) for problems here. It is possible to get Canadian eggs to us than it is not possible to get our eggs to the Canadians.


 


 


Brian,  It is hard to push for continued Laker cuts that have (again lag times of 5-15 years out) per cut unlike Kings lag time of 1-3 years only. WHEN WE (the ones who actualy control the laker take out there NOW) Protect them with eliminatinating the Whole LT division in the Biggest  lakewide derby we have....... Restrict the #'s of LT allowed in most Open/Pro-Am-etc  tournys, that we decide the rules on and compete in, PUT a 5 point bonus on them in ALL tournaments.....Charter Capt's (me included) drive over LT to catch limit of silver fish, then head in over LT water again to docks with out even trying for them.......Ask Capt. Vince or Capt. Joe Toomey or myself about Lake Trout control in the Oswego Pro-Am's years ago (miles of lakers from 1 Tourney day fishing them down over 150')


Hard to ask Government for a potential problem 2 years out (for a 5 year out solution) when we control the catch out there now.


 


Guess what we heard last nite about where Lampreys turn to for food when laker #'s just start to decline?  We are already seeing multiple Lamprey hits on every species out there (Walleye-Bass-Musky ) included..


 


Jerry


RUNNIN REBEL


Edited by RUNNIN REBEL

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I'm not asking for further cuts Jerry.  The cuts they are making are the right decision in my mind.  As for protecting breeders, the slot limit should go back to No fish in the 25-30" range.  Those are the prime breeders according to the DEC.  As for lampreys, I find very few lampreys or lamprey wounds on Lakers.  I find way more lamprey and lamprey wounds on browns and kings.  I will have to start keeping a log of laker wounds on lakers.  I have a hard time believing lampreys target other species when the laker population declines when we do not see many lamprey wounds on lakers in big numbers to begin with. 

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Agree on the embarrassing showing at all these meetings, I honestly feel it should be somewhat mandatory on a certain level. Everyone is so full of excuses, if they were giving away $100 bills bet you you'd have to park a mile away and get there an hour early for standing room only, SAD, the excuses would dry up then.

 

To all who have your excuses ready: YOU ARE WELCOME FOR OUR WORK AND INTEREST AND THE TIME WE GIVE UP FOR THE FISHERY

 

Jerry, thank you for all the time in listing the key facts

 

Tom

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Tom,

Me and you may not agree on a lot of things. But You attend meetings, You use social engines CONSTANTLY and you express your experiences and question the people and science always.

I believe you put in as much time and effort as I do, If not more......

 

 

With that said we need to come up with recommendations the majority of us can agree to moving forward.

 

I also forgot to list the Pen rearing data, were we can increase our pen holdings up to %75 now (up from %50) in return for less direct stocked fish at each site (2 to 1 ratio on that exchange) ALL current pen fish up to the current %50 are Grandfathered in.

 

Tom,  Please check into the Hatchery water reservoir being EXTREMELY low. I do believe the DEC was thrown a curve ball  VERY LATE in the game---YESTERDAY on this one by Brookfield energy(?) 

 

Again , All the non existent turn out at these meetings I attended USA & CANADA is unbelievable to the people who did attend

 

You kind of stood out at the east end meeting I heard...... GOOD FOR YOU.

 

Jerry

RUNNIN REBEL

 

 

Brian:  as soon as the current lake trout abundance numbers start appearing, I will update. Currently we are up last 7 years from the near record low numbers ever recorded since 1980 and  2006-2007. But last year was the 1st year they started a decline.

Edited by RUNNIN REBEL

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As I read this thread I can't hardly believe that all the mom & pop tackle shops and lure makers and everything or anything that pertains to drawing fisherman to an area on the lake being Northeast to the furthest part west of LakeO, do not attend these meetings?? Isn't this their lively hood? This sounds to me like people aren't attending their own job interview. On here people sound disgusted, with the king fishing, many are New York residents, so driving an hour or more was to much to ask? If I'm all wet with my way of thinking just disregard my ludicrous talk! I will feel no disrespect from anyone!! I just can't believe this no show.

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Brian:  as soon as the current lake trout abundance numbers start appearing, I will update. Currently we are up last 7 years from the near record low numbers ever recorded since 1980 and  2006-2007. But last year was the 1st year they started a decline.

I will be interested to see the info.  One years data does not show a trend.  Steve Lapan said it himself that the fish were not their normal areas last season due to the inconsistant weather.  This will also affect the gill net surveys for lake trout.  Also,  The seven years showed an increase in population WITH stocking short falls. 

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