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GAMBLER

Lack of small kings

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17 minutes ago, HB2 said:

Is there evidence of Nat reproduction of Cohos? 

I believe that is what the coho clipping program is all about.  I know from the state of the lake meetings in the past, they talked about an issue with male coho that were sterile.

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That b rings up a question I have had for some time: In the past there was some concern regarding cross breeding between Chinook and Cohos because of some suspicious physical shared characteristics appearing making the exact fish identification a question. I think the usual hybridization of species somehow usually  renders them sterile. Is this perhaps the mechanism responsible for a decrease in the Cohos if it is in fact occurring?

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24 minutes ago, Sk8man said:

That b rings up a question I have had for some time: In the past there was some concern regarding cross breeding between Chinook and Cohos because of some suspicious physical shared characteristics appearing making the exact fish identification a question. I think the usual hybridization of species somehow usually  renders them sterile. Is this perhaps the mechanism responsible for a decrease in the Cohos if it is in fact occurring?

I believe the issue is the DEC went to spring stocking of coho instead of stocking in the fall.  The fall stockers survival rate is way better.  Spring stockers cost less $ and demand less man hours. 

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Cohos and steelhead really miss the emerald shiner days. 

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There are documented naturalized runs of Coho in both Bowmanville and Wilmot creeks on the north shore.  Not huge numbers but have been returning for over 15 years.

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This thread is fantastic. I actually feel like I'm learning alot about the fishery. Hopefully someday I can contribute !

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46 minutes ago, NymphO said:

This thread is fantastic. I actually feel like I'm learning alot about the fishery. Hopefully someday I can contribute !

 

You need to fix my house first!

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55 minutes ago, Gill-T said:

 

You need to fix my house first!

You sound like a nagging wife Chad!

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, NymphO said:

This thread is fantastic. I actually feel like I'm learning alot about the fishery. Hopefully someday I can contribute !

No argument that you can get the history and status of the fishery on this board, but it comes I dribs and drabs, and a lot of it is biased, misinformed, or downright inaccurate.  While I know there are those out there who think the Fisheries Biologists are involved in some sort of behind the scenes conspiracy to sabotage the fishery (which they created and strive hard to maintain), many of us have worked side by side with them since this all got started, and know that if you really want to get educated about what is out there and why, the reports they have written are the primary source of information.  At the risk of being redundant, here are some of the " essential reading" items via link for background on this great fishery:

http://www.glfc.org/pubs/FisheryMgmtDocs/Fmd17-01.pdf     This is the guidance document for Lake Ontario.

http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/27068.html    This is the page with the last 4 annual reports, read the sections that cover your area(s) of interest.  

 

Also check out the DEC webpages on Salmon, and on minnows or bait for some preliminary discussion of the fish.

Edited by Lucky13

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21 hours ago, GAMBLER said:

I believe the issue is the DEC went to spring stocking of coho instead of stocking in the fall.  The fall stockers survival rate is way better.  Spring stockers cost less $ and demand less man hours. 

They certainly have made room for the Atlantic program at the hatchery by moving and cutting....

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No argument that you can get the history and status of the fishery on this board, but it comes I dribs and drabs, and a lot of it is biased, misinformed, or downright inaccurate.  While I know there are those out there who think the Fisheries Biologists are involved in some sort of behind the scenes conspiracy to sabotage the fishery (which they created and strive hard to maintain), many of us have worked side by side with them since this all got started, and know that if you really want to get educated about what is out there and why, the reports they have written are the primary source of information.  At the risk of being redundant, here are some of the " essential reading" items via link for background on this great fishery:
http://www.glfc.org/pubs/FisheryMgmtDocs/Fmd17-01.pdf     This is the guidance document for Lake Ontario.
http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/27068.html    This is the page with the last 4 annual reports, read the sections that cover your area(s) of interest.  
 
Also check out the DEC webpages on Salmon, and on minnows or bait for some preliminary discussion of the fish.



Lucky, we are all biased. You didn’t need to take a shot there though


The Fishin’ Physician Assistant
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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Tall Tails said:

They certainly have made room for the Atlantic program at the hatchery by moving and cutting....

If you read the first chapter of the 2018 report, the stocking section, you will find that all Atlantics that were released into Lake Ontario originated from two hatcheries, New York's contribution to the total from the Adirondack Hatchery in the Saranac Lake area, and the Federal contribution from the Tunison Hatchery run by the USGS BRD near Cortland.  So how does this impact raising of cohos at Salmon River Hatchery?  Page six of the report, in the notes for the table, indicates that lower than normal egg fertilization and survival of coho during fall  2017 led to a shortfall of fall fingerlings stocked in 2018.  This is not the first year that they have reported eye up problems with the coho, and the study should provide useful data on the Fall fingerling versus yearling question.

 

Both the Atlantic Salmon and the Coho salmon are mentioned in the Fish Community Objectives as species to be maintained, with an added objective of seeing self sustaining populations in Ontario.  It must be remembered that the Big Pond is an international waterbody, and so the Canadians and the Federal Government have input, and many in agencies like USF+WS and USEPA see native species restoration as the benchmark for ecosystem restoration and recovery.  It should also be remembered that critical programs like the lamprey eradication work or the native prey fish reintroduction, are funded at the Federal level, and could disappear if a less facilitative stance were assumed by the state.   The king salmon is still the number one objective for the pelagic community.  

 

The stocking targets in the FCO also indicate a 50,000 fish target in New York for Atlantics, but a Coho target of 245,000 fish.(The Canadians and our Federal folks stock the lion's share of Atlantics; we stock the most coho)  Those are still the target numbers although there was a  surplus of Atlantics available to stock last year, as they did go over the target number by ~22,000 yearlings from the Adirondack Hatchery.  The additional excess are all federal fish raised at Tunison.  But how do those numbers support your contention of a "shift" in resources, especially in light of the egg problems?

 

Doc, pointing out bias was not meant as a shot at anybody, but it is one of the reason why anecdotal information does not get the weight that sampling methods designed to minimize bias do, in the final analyses.  That said, some posters here, like you and Sk8man, jus to single out two, and some of the captains, show a lot more objectivity than some others. 

Edited by Lucky13

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No argument that you can get the history and status of the fishery on this board, but it comes I dribs and drabs, and a lot of it is biased, misinformed, or downright inaccurate.  While I know there are those out there who think the Fisheries Biologists are involved in some sort of behind the scenes conspiracy to sabotage the fishery (which they created and strive hard to maintain), many of us have worked side by side with them since this all got started, and know that if you really want to get educated about what is out there and why, the reports they have written are the primary source of information.  At the risk of being redundant, here are some of the " essential reading" items via link for background on this great fishery:
http://www.glfc.org/pubs/FisheryMgmtDocs/Fmd17-01.pdf     This is the guidance document for Lake Ontario.
http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/27068.html    This is the page with the last 4 annual reports, read the sections that cover your area(s) of interest.  
 
Also check out the DEC webpages on Salmon, and on minnows or bait for some preliminary discussion of the fish.
Thanks for the links. I will give them a read. This is basically my 3rd season on ladyO and 2nd season with my boat. LOU in general has been beyond helpful, as well as getting out there and learning the hard way when it comes to catching them, but I want to learn as much as I can about the fishery in general beyond just "fishing". I appreciate what happens behind the scenes, and take ALOT for granted. I think we all owe it to the lake, and each other to do more than just go fishing.
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The Fish Community Objectives document Lucky linked to is a great source for Understanding Lake Ontario fisheries.

 

Another easy place to find information is this page: http://www.glfc.org/lake-ontario-committee.php. Besides having the documents Lucky posted it has links to other reports and recorded presentations. Each Great Lake has a page like this, they are great sources of info about fisheries & mgmt.

 

rdebadts- I definitely hear u about the spatial “holes” in the trawl survey, we are trying to fill it all in. If you look at old reports you’ll see the survey historically only sampled to Olcott. We  added the Bar transect and extended it deeper when the survey went whole lake. North shore still has the biggest unsampled areas & we have a trawl site recon mission for the Brighton area planned.

 

That said, the survey  indicies are lakewide averages, weighted by lake area, so even if a relatively small unsampled area has a higher Alewife abundance it , it doesn’t change the average lakewide abundance as much a you might think. 

 

I learn a ton out of the questions and comments posted on this site (thank you hosts & mods). I try to think about all our survey work like this Edmund Burke quote: “He that wrestles with us strengthens our nerves and sharpens our skill. Our antagonist is our helper”.

 

Don’t stop the thoughtful critiques!

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, NymphO said:
On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 6:51 AM, Lucky13 said:
No argument that you can get the history and status of the fishery on this board, but it comes I dribs and drabs, and a lot of it is biased, misinformed, or downright inaccurate.  While I know there are those out there who think the Fisheries Biologists are involved in some sort of behind the scenes conspiracy to sabotage the fishery (which they created and strive hard to maintain), many of us have worked side by side with them since this all got started, and know that if you really want to get educated about what is out there and why, the reports they have written are the primary source of information.  At the risk of being redundant, here are some of the " essential reading" items via link for background on this great fishery:
http://www.glfc.org/pubs/FisheryMgmtDocs/Fmd17-01.pdf     This is the guidance document for Lake Ontario.
http://www.dec.ny.gov/outdoor/27068.html    This is the page with the last 4 annual reports, read the sections that cover your area(s) of interest.  
 
Also check out the DEC webpages on Salmon, and on minnows or bait for some preliminary discussion of the fish.

Thanks for the links. I will give them a read. This is basically my 3rd season on ladyO and 2nd season with my boat. LOU in general has been beyond helpful, as well as getting out there and learning the hard way when it comes to catching them, but I want to learn as much as I can about the fishery in general beyond just "fishing". I appreciate what happens behind the scenes, and take ALOT for granted. I think we all owe it to the lake, and each other to do more than just go fishing.

 

 

I don't think you can get more or better information on catching Lake Ontario fish anywhere other than this website.  When it comes to putting scales in the box, you have everyone from the newbie with beginner's luck to the seasoned pros with 40 years under their belt, and they are all sharing information willingly, this is a beautiful thing.  I've read pretty much all the magazines and books written about Great Lakes salmonid fishing, and if you read this website thoroughly, there is more information here, and a lot of it is not anywhere else.  But for the science end of it, I'm still going to send you to the State and Federal guys, and their partners at the Universities! 

Edited by Lucky13
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Sounds to me like the coho are having a harder   time than the Chinook at transitioning to the lake ontario ecosystem . 

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6 hours ago, Lucky13 said:

 

 

I don't think you can get more or better information on catching Lake Ontario fish anywhere other than this website.  When it comes to putting scales in the box, you have everyone from the newbie with beginner's luck to the seasoned pros with 40 years under their belt, and they are all sharing information willingly, this is a beautiful thing.  I've read pretty much all the magazines and books written about Great Lakes salmonid fishing, and if you read this website thoroughly, there is more information here, and a lot of it is not anywhere else.  But for the science end of it, I'm still going to send you to the State and Federal guys, and their partners at the Universities! 

Amen:smile:

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I believe its because coho's spend more time in the streams than Chinook before migrating to the lake.  I think the young parr are exposed to warmer water due to them spending almost up to a year in the river.which  may cause mortality.

 

But like SK8man said; I would defer to the research biologists to confirm this or not.

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Because of high summer water temps most LO  tribs rule out any salmonids natural reproduction that’s YOY have to spend at least one summer in the tribs. You likely will not see any significant natural reproduction of Steelhead, Atlantic’s, Coho in LO because once trib temps increase above 60 or so degrees there is almost 100 % mortality of the juveniles in the tribs. Chinooks yoy on the other hand migrate out before lethal trib temps become a problem and are best suited for LO natural reproduction. My guess is that Chinook naturally reproduce in more LO tribs then many think. 

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Fished offshore yesterday morning for half the morning before heading to calmer waters inside.  Two more skippies to put the season total at 11.  It is still concerning to me to see such few skips around.  The last two trips we have seen some decent two year olds which is good.  Insane amounts of bait inside 250' (60' -250).  Outside of 250' we found some bait but no where close to the amount inside of 250'. 

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