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brucehookedup

Genny River Return??????

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Where in the hell are the fish we raised and the state state put in. This is one of the top 5 crappy returns i have ever seen since fishing the big pond from 1977. I am waiting to hear the B. S.

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I agree, but I know where they are.  Genny, oak, Olcott-major problems imprinting fish. Good luck explaining this to our government.  Salmon river hatchery is the worse thing that ever happened to Lake Ontario.

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I been doing this a long time and the imprint issue is for sure real. But if the fish are living close to out western ports they return, well at least a fair amount of them. We sure had the fish all summer I am sure alot of our fish went to freezers that does not help. But the salmon river has fish so not got caught. One major problem we saw this year was the weather late . Just as the fish started to stage we had crazy winds hard east..all the water was cold inside , then hard west bam hot water inside to hot. Then east blow ice right back. And repeat it again. The 15 to 25 mph west winds blow for 2 days. After that one the matures were gone. Either we were catching Canada fish and ours were already gone our it was our fish and they booked east. No matter what the vanished. I don't think the imprint is strong enough to draw them back when those things happen . Plus the smaller streams had almost 0 flow at that time due to the dry late summer . All added to gether and you get what we have, a very poor return



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I took a walk down to the Oswego river yesterday afternoon before the rain.  Lots of fisherman up by the dam, as usual.  I saw people catching salmon, could not get too close to  the dam where most of the fisherman were, it was too crowded.  There are few boats out on the lake now, guess most of the fish are in the river?  A week or so ago I would see dozens of boats off shore from my office.  The parking lots were packed, saw vehicles from lots of different states.

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Never considered the imprint factor when the fish were pushed from those winds.  Maybe the fish were drawn back to port, only to be pounded out from those freak winds this month and not return.  I have never seen so much east wind in the month of September.  Nearly every day,  whether light or strong we were dealing with afternoon east winds.  I figured when west returned, so would the fish.  That never happened, when west returned, the fish never returned with them.  Getting late in the year, reguardless of temps.  We are going to possibly see one of the worst returns in history in the next 7 days.  Freezing temps at weeks end, should push the bulk of whatever is waiting into home or not home ports.  We are going to know a lot come late weekend.

Edited by shorelunch

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Isn’t this the return year of the non pen rearing year when the DEC got us our fish too late and the water was too warm? That year they were direct stocked at most projects. At Sandy we pen reared for only a couple of days that year.


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Yes, I believe that is correct Brian. 2016 was a warm year of weather hence the record alewife year class. 

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On 9/28/2019 at 9:30 PM, brucehookedup said:

Where in the hell are the fish we raised and the state state put in. This is one of the top 5 crappy returns i have ever seen since fishing the big pond from 1977. I am waiting to hear the B. S.

It's not just the Genny, Bruce. Same for all returns in region 9. This was "pre cut" returns to top it off.  Oh well, lots of alewives out here from 25--500 fow. 

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The Genesee has only dropped below 66°F last night and has only been below 67° three other nights.  Maybe these fish only respond to temperature when they are offshore?  Bill Abraham, retired Region 8 Fisheries Manager, always said the west end runs late because of warm source waters, what he called the thermal barriers, no deep shady woods like on the Tug Hill to cool the rivers down and keep them colder.  But what would he know, he was just a university trained fisheries scientist! 

 

While there are fair numbers of fish in the Salmon River and the Oz,  they are not yet experiencing the massive runs they have seen in past years, so there may be another big push to come.  Or if Vince is right about the massive schools of bait he finds every time he turns on the graph, maybe the salmon all died of gluttony! 

Edited by Lucky13

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The Genesee has only dropped below 66°F last night and has only been below 67° three other nights.  Maybe these fish only respond to temperature when they are offshore?  Bill Abraham, retired Region 8 Fisheries Manager, always said the west end runs late because of warm source waters, what he called the thermal barriers, no deep shady woods like on the Tug Hill to cool the rivers down and keep them colder.  But what would he know, he was just a university trained fisheries scientist! 
 
While there are fair numbers of fish in the Salmon River and the Oz,  they are not yet experiencing the massive runs they have seen in past years, so there may be another big push to come.  Or if Vince is right about the massive schools of bait he finds every time he turns on the graph, maybe the salmon all died of gluttony! 





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I actually thought you would keep your nose out of stuff you know nothing about,”lucky anonymous 13”. I guess I was wrong! LOL. The last year Bill Abraham was employed by the NYSDEC all the central and west plants were coming from the Caledonia hatchery. On the last day of September- ANY of those years- there was 30-40 boats working Devils hole in the Niagara. Regardless of the temperature, which even back then could still be in the high 60s the fish would be packed into not only the Niagara, but 18 mile, Oak Orchard, and the Genesee. The piers at the mouth of these rivers would be shoulder to shoulder. Today, there was 3 anglers on each pier at Olcott, and no fish hooked as of 8am. Today in Devils hole in prime time for the run, there was 6 boats trying and most left after a couple hours to try for Bass. The Niagara temp is down to 67 degrees and Olcott harbor is down to 64 degrees. Stick to what you know “Lucky”. What is that btw, instigating?


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I am with Vince back when I was in school I would always catch a salmon in the creek before I had to go back to school the day after labor day. And some times the water in the creek would be high 70's. I know know the water is clearer and that has some effect. But my point is water temp to mature salmon is not that important.. the want to spawn can make them go to water they are not comfortable in. There are a ton of factors that is making the salmon returns on the west end poor at best. I pointed them out and probably the smallest factor is water temps of the streams and rivers. The lake getting all messed up right at staging time I am sure is the biggest along with poor imprinting. But on a side note why are there not alot more salmon in the salmon river either? If all our fish went there they should be over run but looks like just a normal run?

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I have 30 years of experience working in Environmental Science, have worked with such illustrious scientists as Drs Ed Mills and Lars Rudstam from the Cornell Biological Research Facility on Oneida Lake, Fred Luckey from Region II USEPA, Dave MacNeill and his colleagues at Sea Grant, and Dr. Brian Weidel of the USGS (some of you deal with his "anonymous" self on here, and there are only a few self promoting posters here who use their own name, so I am hardly alone in having an " alias") and many of the DEC Regions 6, 7 and 8 staffs, among many others.  I serve with you on the Great Lake Fishery Commission citizen advisory panel.  As to instigating, I have not gone to the major outdoor print outlet in  New York and publicly lambasted the mangers of this fishery based on my Television watching experience.  How many screenshots do you have to take to get one big bait pod, Vince? 

 

It s an interesting  hypothesis that raising fish in one of the more unique water sources in New York, a limestone spring with a very unique chemistry, would imprint fish to rivers 80 to 100 miles away that have no resemblance to Spring Brook in their water chemistry. Even comparing the flow in Spring Brook to the total flow in the Genesee River, it is amazing that that Spring Brook signature does not get "swamped" with all the other chemical influences for a big old muddy flow like the Genny. Perhaps you can put some kind of science together to prove your contentions, something a little more rigorous than " back in the day it was shoulder to shoulder (may I remind you that all aspects of the fishery are down somewhat, people seem to get bored with fishing after a few years) and a couple of cherry picked graph shots.

 

BTW, all your noise about how much bait there is and there aren't enough salmon  could be viewed as " the sky is falling" talk by out of staters, so you may be shooting yourself in the foot down the road regardless of whether the cuts are noticeable, and the bait bounces back,  or not.

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Uncle


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36 minutes ago, Lucky13 said:

 

 

It s an interesting  hypothesis that raising fish in one of the more unique water sources in New York, a limestone spring with a very unique chemistry, would imprint fish to rivers 80 to 100 miles away that have no resemblance to Spring Brook in their water chemistry. Even comparing the flow in Spring Brook to the total flow in the Genesee River, it is amazing that that Spring Brook signature does not get "swamped" with all the other chemical influences for a big old muddy flow like the Genny. 

 

I think the idea “Salty 13” is that the fish are NOT imprinted on the salmon river.

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Here a a cpl of dumb questions..... no biologist here.... when I started this game 15 years ago I caught tons of stagers off the genny..... now my dumb questions..... I didn’t think that water temp played any role in them running the river because of them being implanted from the genny .... so I’m confused as to if they were able to get to come back to the river then... what’s the difference of them not being implanted to the genny now 15ish years later.....next dumb question..... if they don’t run the genny .. they go right to the salmon river as a previous poster stated?..... again... not a biologist here at all..... lol


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Here a a cpl of dumb questions..... no biologist here.... when I started this game 15 years ago I caught tons of stagers off the genny..... now my dumb questions..... I didn’t think that water temp played any role in them running the river because of them being implanted from the genny .... so I’m confused as to if they were able to get to come back to the river then... what’s the difference of them not being implanted to the genny now 15ish years later.....next dumb question..... if they don’t run the genny .. they go right to the salmon river as a previous poster stated?..... again... not a biologist here at all..... lol


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This year class of mature fish is from the spring that pen rearing did not happen due to water temps being too high. The fish were direct stocked. Without pen rearing, fish do not imprint on the trib they were stocked in. The majority run back to the Salmon River. The pen rearing clip study proved this year ago. There is some straying back to the salmon river even if they are pen reared but is is way less. I was told by one of the hatchery personnel that is caused because they are already imprinted on the salmon river before being pen reared.


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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Lucky13 said:

I have 30 years of experience working in Environmental Science, have worked with such illustrious scientists as Drs Ed Mills and Lars Rudstam from the Cornell Biological Research Facility on Oneida Lake, Fred Luckey from Region II USEPA, Dave MacNeill and his colleagues at Sea Grant, and Dr. Brian Weidel of the USGS (some of you deal with his "anonymous" self on here, and there are only a few self promoting posters here who use their own name, so I am hardly alone in having an " alias") and many of the DEC Regions 6, 7 and 8 staffs, among many others.  I serve with you on the Great Lake Fishery Commission citizen advisory panel.  As to instigating, I have not gone to the major outdoor print outlet in  New York and publicly lambasted the mangers of this fishery based on my Television watching experience.  How many screenshots do you have to take to get one big bait pod, Vince? 

 

It s an interesting  hypothesis that raising fish in one of the more unique water sources in New York, a limestone spring with a very unique chemistry, would imprint fish to rivers 80 to 100 miles away that have no resemblance to Spring Brook in their water chemistry. Even comparing the flow in Spring Brook to the total flow in the Genesee River, it is amazing that that Spring Brook signature does not get "swamped" with all the other chemical influences for a big old muddy flow like the Genny. Perhaps you can put some kind of science together to prove your contentions, something a little more rigorous than " back in the day it was shoulder to shoulder (may I remind you that all aspects of the fishery are down somewhat, people seem to get bored with fishing after a few years) and a couple of cherry picked graph shots.

 

BTW, all your noise about how much bait there is and there aren't enough salmon  could be viewed as " the sky is falling" talk by out of staters, so you may be shooting yourself in the foot down the road regardless of whether the cuts are noticeable, and the bait bounces back,  or not.

Lucky with all due respect your background does not qualify you to speak as an authority on the current state of the Pacific Salmon fishery. You are doing quite a disservice to anyone that reads your many personal attacks on this board, by not admitting that you are not a Pacific Salmon advocate--certainly not in the open lake. As usual, you have taken liberties as to the information you spew on here--much of it is false. I am going to address your targeted misinformation below in the order you wrote it above. Don't expect lots of back and forth because frankly I think you enjoy it and I'm not playing.

1) I have enjoyed a good relationship with Dave MacNeill through the years, he did a nice job for Sea Grant. I consider Dr. Brian Weidel a friend, and we communicate much more often than you know. He has a set of parameters and guidelines that he must follow to formulate his conclusions. I think we learn a lot from each other and even when we strongly disagree it does not get mean spirited. He can only provide his findings--how it is used is out of his control.   My conclusions and my positions are based on observations/interactions with the Lake Ontario Salmon fishery for over 40 years--35 of those years nearly every day for 7 months of the year. 

2) I'm sorry but as long as you make personal attacks and biased statements from a keyboard using an alias you have zero credibility with me. As for your accusation that anyone that doesn't hide behind a keyboard alias is "self promoting", that is simply nonsense. I was long established prior to the existence of this board. For me, it's about standing behind what you say and believe. To each his own, and I certainly understand why some have "user names". However it's widely accepted that making personal attacks from a position of anonymity is bush league, and often referred to as a "keyboard warrior". 

3) Yes I serve on that Great Lakes fishery commission citizen advisory panel(if you are who I think you are your attendance on the calls has been less than stellar) but also the Niagara county fishery advisory board, and served on every single panel and board that I have been asked to sit on for the last 3 decades. I have also volunteered for every single DEC diet study and clipping study ever conducted for Lake Ontario-- just ask any of the managers. How many have you participated in? How many hours a season do YOU spend on the open lake?

4)Your accusation that I "went to a major outdoor print outlet" to plead my case is yet another falsehood you spew. I was contacted by the editor out of the blue asking my take on the issue. Certainly you aren't suggesting censorship, are you?

5) My "screen shots" have nothing to do with you, and certainly you cannot relate through your own recent experiences so simply MYOB. Your fascination with them is creepy. If you must know, the hour by hour observation of "the screens" is only part of the equation. The actual behavior of the target species, along with stomach content analysis is much more telling. For me, "size at age" is fascinating but I won't get into that as it is WAAY beyond your level of understanding with such little "hands on" experience.

6) I'm not the least bit bored, I find every aspect of the daily challenges worthwhile. As to your theory that anglers are leaving the fishery due to boredom--I can assure you if they felt a decent chance to catch a returning Salmon the piers would be chalk full again.

7) Once again you take the liberty to accuse me of "cherry picking" "graph" shots. Sorry but graphs were pretty much obsolete by 1990. My screen shots are actually quite random. Contrary to what you may believe, I would never want any management decisions that would harm the fishery. I find it sad that the Pacific Salmon isn't recognized more for what it actually is, the savior of the Lake Ontario ecosystem. Until the alewives were somewhat controlled none of the fantastic improvements that we have seen over the years would have taken place. This can quickly reverse, and the health of the alewife population put in danger if they become under predated again--and I have seen this on Lake Ontario more than once.

8)To call my observations "noise" is once again a cowardly cheap shot. I think my observations are certainly valuable, and many of the biologists and managers that you enjoy name dropping have told me so. Don't worry about me and my clients/guests. I have survived the first unnecessary Pacific stocking cut, and surely you aren't suggesting that I misrepresent what I can offer the tourist anglers, are you? We have been fortunate to have some bumper crops of naturally hatched Chinook Salmon that have masked the inequities in the stocking portion of the program. When I sit on the various boards/panels I feel a responsibility to look out for the small boater and the shore anglers--not just big boat anglers. Our area and approx half of the southshore of Lake Ontario has had some issues as the wild component does not contribute and 2 to 3 months of the season the small boat angler and area businesses are drastically impacted--not that you care one iota.                 

Edited by Capt Vince Pierleoni
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Posted (edited)
9 hours ago, Lucky13 said:

I have 30 years of experience working in Environmental Science, have worked with such illustrious scientists as Drs Ed Mills and Lars Rudstam from the Cornell Biological Research Facility on Oneida Lake, Fred Luckey from Region II USEPA, Dave MacNeill and his colleagues at Sea Grant

 

The Atlantic Salmon program has ZERO effect on the Lake Ontario fishery and the economies of the ports around the lake, therefore, you have had ZERO net effect on the lake. BTW, saying hello to biologists at State-of-the Lake meetings does not constitute “working” with them. To call out and question Capt Vince’s credibility is just plain stupid. Keep in your lane.....stream fishing for that one Atlantic per year you catch. 

Edited by Gill-T
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Well Vince as always you showed your class. You could have easily stooped to his level. But you just defended your self with facts and honest opinions based on what you have seen in your many hours on the water. And I remember when you started your charter business many many years ago and I have always been impressed with your attention to detail and how you always paid attention to every little thing, all to make you a better fisherman. I am sure you have taken note of alot more than most anglers so I like hearing your point of view on what's happening in the lake. Keep up the fight for all of us fellow fisherman

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